wormer help needed thread
 

as requested by HF, so you can hopefully help me:

Start a new thread regarding worms, you will get a larger audience & give the following information:

How many goats -
1 adult mini-nubian buck who was treated with valbazene 10cc/10 lb goat wednesday night. seems fine and is seperated from everyone.
2 6 y.o. nubian does - both thin and milking at about 1/4 peak 6 months from kidding - less than I would expect - one is still nursing her 6 month old doeling.
yearling mini nubian doe, milking about 8 oz/day - first fresher, no reference but this seems to be her output.
one 2 yo mini nubian doe - 82 days bred, carrying twins as per ultrasound.
2 six month old doelings, a six month old wether, all full nubian - wether is very small.
one 4 month old mini-nubian doeling
total - 9 goats.

How much acreage -
2 1/4 acre fenced pastures both needing cleaned. 10 useable acres of clean brush.
Can you rotate pastures -
currently only in small mobile pens.

can you lock them up for 60 days or more (to micromanage the disposed wormes?) - yes, in the barn or in moveable pens.

Can you keep them off selected pastures for 60 days or more?
yes.

your typical weather in all seasons; Do you get a hard freeze? Wet pastures? Deer visiting? - 4 seasons, all those. currently freezing (20's) at night and wet during the day.

Doseages & wormers used, methods of administration
ivomec injectable - sub Q and oral - limited results
safeguard as directed - no noticable results
quest - ditto 3x horse dose


Fecal results on other herd members, either all or selected few - vet did a combo on each field. diagnosed strongyles, boys extremely high, girls and kids heavy.
Do you have a microscope? not a good one.

Eyelid colors, health of their coat, body condition for each goat. - all seem ok except as mentioned above.

If you've contacted other local breeders what they use & works for them for a reference starting point. - took both thin does to a swodga meeting - was told to hit them all three times with valbazen - which may have just killed my buck by killing the worms off too fast at 1cc/10lbs. except the pregnant one - for whom I was given a cydectin pour-on schedule and dosage for oral treatment.

I think I would probably start out by doing fecals on all the goats to find out where they are, and how they fared on your current worming program. Comingling samples is a great way to determine if there is a worm problem and what the worms are present, but they do not tell you which 10% of your herd are harboring the resistant worms; i.e. your riskiest goat and the one with least resistance. If any goat has anemic eyelids I would start them on Redcell daily prior to and during worming.

How to fecal: http://www.goatworld.com/articles/worms/course2.shtml

Learn which worms are the issue then you can proceed to worm appropriately. Then I would worm the goats; based on the fecal results. For heavy wormloads to the extent of the issues you have seen, I would worm at ½ the recommended dose, orally, then 10 days later the full dose by injection for incisted worms(for clear wormers):

Wormer Doseages (for my area) : Ivermec 1cc/25# , OR Cydectin 1cc/50#, and Safequard 1cc/10# orally all. These are the doseages we give here on our farm in the Norteast. Your area may be higher or lower, this is where your neighboring breeders techniques comes in.

This time of year I'd wait 10 days, then deworm by injection to get incisted worms. This should clear them out for the winter. Find out how effective your worming was by fecaling before, then after. If the numbers aren't reduced, you have complete resistance.

Forget the lime unless your pasture ph is off. A 60 day pasture rest will eliminate virtually all worms during the warmer months(refer back to Biology of the goat, life cycle of a worm = 21 days). If your ground freezes for 2 weeks or more in winter, the worms are dead. Your pasture will get re-infected ins pring from the insisted worms that you don't kill.

I can't comment on the rest right now, but keep in mind browse will not have any worm larvae; larvae only crawls to about 4" high. Utilizing/rotating that browse this spring & summer just may be your solution to overgrazing. If not rotate the 2 pastures with a dry-lotting system. This will reduce the wormload.

HF
ps incisted worms will not be picked up on a fecal, and it sound like you are at that time of year.

I would like to read your source for the recommendation of injected dewormer for worms at the cyst stage. This is not in my textbook.

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/ar...wormsLice.html

With all due respect, I think that is not good info. The textbook for vet school that I trust, Sheep and Goat Medicine, ( http://www.amazon.com/Sheep-Goat-Med.../dp/0721690521 ) states that injecting goats with dewormers increases the worms' resistance to the dewormers. The chemical lingers at a less than optimal concentration when injected and the worms that survive are less likely to be susceptible to that product or family of products.

Page 90 - "Craig [a researcher] has suggested that clinicians refrain from injecting or using pour-on macrolide preparations designed for cattle in small ruminants. This practice may enhance the development of resistant strains of some internal parasites because of inappropriately low drug absorption (with pour on use) or long term subtheraputic levels (with injection.)"

In the appendix where medicines are listed by Latin name, use in sheep and goats, and dosages, the dewormers for goats are listed as PO (oral administration) except for one med given for liver flukes.

To view the full text of Alice's reference for the suggested treatments of Craig, click the book link here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=7bF...page&q&f=false

I don't see the referenced chart in that link but I recall one in Mary Smith's Goat Medicine. I imagine they are very similar, I don't have hers in front of me to reference at this time.

I just read an article n a vet forum ( http://www.veterinarypracticenews.co...y-another.aspx ) stating that the resistance is coming from us goat people dosing orally. Six of one half a dozen of the other. Having said that, I prefer not to cite one reference as the only correct reference but to review many sources and come up with what I feel is best for my situation based on what seems to work. The longer one proceeds to raise goats one learns that not one management style will suit everyone, what works for one does not work for another. Opinions of what is right & wrong are very common, amongst us simple goat breeders and researchers alike as the text itself states further down.

I'm offering my suggestions & opinions to the OP as she is clearly looking to the board for assistance. The more opinions she receives the more information she will have available to her to make her own decisions on what is right & wrong for her.

Differing opinions are always welcome and open for discussion.

HF

so now I have another question - knowing that ivomec has only been of limited use in my herd (and having used it injectably before - as I do for the alpacas) would it make sense to treat the goats with the injectable ivomec first - to reduce the load, and then follow up with the valbazen orally at a low dose followed by a higher dose?

and if I did that i assume I would treat with valbazen 10 days apart, but how long would you wait after the ivomec?

I am trying to work out a treatment plan.

oh, and hypothetically - the adult worms in the goat die eventually, right? So if it were possible to keep the goats from ever ingesting new worms - would the worms clear out completely without treatment?

I agree! Not only do you need to get the opinions of those 'in the field', but the authorities - either in the textbooks or at the universities.

I recently received an email via discussion group from Dr. Sharon Patton, Director of the Diagnostic Parasitology Service at the University of Tennessee College of Veterinary Medicine. She said that the currently very popular method of deworming with the same dewormer for a series of three doses every ten days was "one of the main reasons we are seeing worm resistance."

Those pesky opinions are like elbows.....:shocked:

Personally I would fecal first. It may be that your buck was the most suseptable to worms, the weak link so to speak.

A whole herd fecal will tell you where your herd is at right now, who is most resistant, and who will be next.

HF

Yes if you can dry lot them (pasture1, pasture2, dry lot I reference above) for pre-determined periods, the adult larvae would eventually die and break the cycle. Dry lotted animals have virtually no worms (for Alice: All About Goats, Lois Hetherington & John G. Mathews <smile>just so happened to have that one handy don't get used to it! lol). Right now though, the additional issue of them hybernating for the winter is starting to come into play. It's quite probable the next batch will come when your doe kids, why you need to clear them for the winter to reduce the numbers.

HF

I didn't answer your question. Different wormers get different worms. I would keep to the schedule for EACH type of wormer. I'm not a big fan of rotating wormers like you are saying, I'm simply suggesting to go after all the worms systematically until you can deal with them properly this spring. SOMETHING stopped up your buck, probably tapes though vet says strongyles.

I would ask your vet if you should switch to a fluckicide, i.e. Ivermec Plus.

HF
p.s. I'm having Java issues again, sometimes they cause me not to be able to sign into HT for 3-4 days. If I "disappear" you'll know why.

Fecal first, to see if your previous measures have at least lessened the load.

IF they have a moderate to heavy load (But NOT EXTRA, ~extraordinarily~ heavy like your buck did), then I would use Ivomectin Plus orally at full dose, and follow in 10 days with another full dose.

IF they have an "Oh my God!" load, I would use Valbazen at a low dose first, then the full dose, then follow with the Ivomectin Plus.as I mentioned above.

This is because Valbazen in many areas of Ohio and Pennsylvania is already having resistance problems....but it should knock them back enough to keep the Ivomectin from blocking them up.

I haven't done anything chemical since the vet did the fecal, so the only "previous measures" are cleaning the stalls (but they are still on the same pasture.)

however, before the fecal I was using Ivomec injectable, which did give symptomatic improvement, but apparently didn't get most of the worms.

What I got from the vet was "heavy" about the boys I got "very heavy. use valbazen, I'll get it for you." and two weeks later I called and got "Oh yeah, it's here you can pick it up from the receptionist." and for dosage (from the receptionist) "She said this is more than you need. 2.5cc should do your big goat." (the biggest goats are 120 lb does) and a week later she hasn't called or e-mailed me with the requested cc/lb. I realize we had thanksgiving, but this is what I'm working with.

I have a teenager watching my goats for a week at Christmas so I can go out of state to see my grandmother - she's 98. I really don't want to leave a teenager with goats that might die.

Try ( I know it's hard ) not to panic. Most of us only lose the occasional goat to the occasional problem. The other goats are not going to keel over.

You need to know how much your goats weigh so you can accurately dose them. Use a tape measure to find their chest measurement at the chart at the linked website to estimate weights.

http://www.goatconnection.com/articl...ticle_30.shtml

If you are deworming for barberpole worms, I would use Cydectin orally at the rate on the info on this page:
http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,8934.0.html

I have a weight tape. the adult nubian who looks in the worst condition tapes at 135. She is also the one who has a cough and had bottle jaw earlier in the season - I treated her with ivomec and the cough went away and the ottle jaw went away, but the cough came back and I am suspecting lungworms because she does not seem to have a fever. her appetite is ok, and her milk production is down.

the smallest adult doe tapes at 115. The doelings are all around 70. with nice rounded sides and no hips showing. I didn't tape the wether, but I would guess 35-40.

everyone's appetite is fine. Everyone's poop is nice dark solid pellets. Two of the milking does are thinner than usual and milking less. the new one I have no reference for. The new doe and my one nubian are coughing, but the new doe coughs very rarely. the 6 mo. old wether is not growing. His mother weaned him at 8 weeks and he wouldn't drink from a pan or bottle. his milk fed twin is twice his size. He was wormed with both ivomec and then later safeguard about a month ago.

the vet says the sample of poop from that field has a "heavy" load of Strongyles.

I have lost two goats and an alpaca this year and I am rapidly losing all confidence in my vet but have no good alternative.

Poop from that field? Normally, poop is gathered FRESH. As soon as it drops from the goat's rear. Some folks even gather it from the goat's rectum.

This is necessary to get an accurate fecal count.

As you only have a few goats, label a zip lock bag for each goat. Go out when they are getting up in the morning or in mid afternoon after cud chewing. Watch and catch/pick up a FRESH sample from each goat separately.

Have your vet test each goat's poop and give you a report on each one.

First of all I'd have fecals run on fresh poop caught from each individual goat. Run individual fecals.

Secondly, I'd copper bolus the whole herd. Give copasure and Bo-Se to everyone.

Thirdly I would buy Cydectin Cattle Pour-On wormer(not quest, I'd go with the cattle wormer to be sure I was doing it right), and dose everyone with 5 cc's per hundred lbs, ORALLY. Its a safe wormer, if in doubt on weights, always guess high and then round up, never down. Its much better to overdose than to underdose.

Fourthly, I would fecal again after reccomended time to see if I had gotten a kill with the Cydectin.

I just have a hard time with the thought that Cydectin will not do you any good if used properly. You live in Ohio where it gets a LOT colder than here in southern Missouri, so you should get a much better winter worm kill than I do. I have been successfully using Cydectin on my herd for 7-8 years. And I only worm once or twice a year, strategically. I do not pasture my goats much, they spend more time browsing or eating hay.

I'm sorry for the loss of your buck, I was just reading that thread.

Anyway, thats what I would start with, if they were mine.

The idea of using dewormers with the assumption that they will kill encysted worms has been niggling at my mind.

Here's an article about how dewormers work. Based on what it says, Ivomec (at least) would not be effective on worms in the cyst stage. It is my understanding that most dewormers are effective only at certain stages of development.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1110113036.htm

I've asked on another goat board made up of long term, experienced dairy goat folks. NO one has heard of dewormers being effective on encysted worms.


I emailed the owner of TennesseeMeatGoats, and the reply indicated that they do not have scientific documentation for the claim.

Ohhhh, poop from the field is no good!
I understood poop from the field as meaning collections from several goats, a range, collective sample. To say the least I'm shocked your vet performed the fecal that way & actually tried to treat & recommend based on that information. If that's the case I agree this vet doesn't know much about worms and goats; or fecaling on any animal for that matter.

HF

well, that is exactly what she did.

So, I have an idea! I have instruction for how to do a fecal without a centrifuge, I just don't have a very good microscope.

but I teach part time. So maybe the biology teacher will let me borrow her microscope after class! I have a chart of worm eggs too.

do I need a slide cover? can I let the slide dry? these things are not in my instruction notes, because the day I saw the demo (two years ago!) we looked right away. I will have to take my slides to school with me.

the local breeder who was doing the ultrasounds at the meeting I attended told me cydectin cattle pour on 1cc/22lbs for the pregnant goat.

Yes, cydectin cattle pour on 1 cc/22 lbs of goat, GIVEN ORALLY.

yes, orally.

but do I need to worry about killing everything off at once and losing the goat again?

I am currently cleaning stalls down to dirt every few days and feeding hay inside, but the girls are still going out on their pasture. dh is helping me with some movable panels (we are wiring fencing to tubular corral panels) but he only has time to do a few a day. When I get a few more done, I can enclose a section of browse and take them off the pasture. otherwise all 8 go in a 20x10 barn stall in a fully enclosed (no windows) barn. I can't open the barn door because it opens directly between the stall and the pasture. (there is a small human door on the far side of the barn)

Really, after reading your post about your buck and Valbazen, I am still not sure that a hard worm kill, killed your goat. In fact, I'd doubt it. I'd guess you were dealing with something else, a heavy worm load will make anything much harder for the goat to handle.

I have taken in goats who were literally white with anemia, huge with bottle-jaw, and scouring, the wormload was that bad. I have wormed them heavily with Cydectin, then used builders such as Red Cell till they were looking much better, then re-wormed again with Cydectin three weeks after the first worming.
None ever died from hard worm kill.

Again, I stress to NEVER underdose!! I have used a quadruple dose on goats by accident before and they were fine. So I tend to think of Cydectin as a pretty safe wormer.

But its up to you in the end, they are yours.

Necropsies can be helpful for unknown deaths, our state performs them for free. Though sometimes they can bring more questions than answers.

I guess we'll never know for sure about this buck, to tell the truth since hearing how the vet handled the fecal testing his/her input needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

HF