Help with bottle baby

Oat Bucket Farm · #21 11/19/10, 10:57 PM

Yeah I saw it was powdered which won't be as good as momma's but even so, I wonder if he got enough. And if it was the kind that has actual goat colostrum in it.

Perhaps the OP will fill us in on that when they get back to this thread. What he was given and what he is eating now could make a big difference.

maleyfarm · #22 11/20/10, 01:58 AM

Well, I started to reply earlier but got sidetracked, so I'll try again...
fishhead- He is on real goats milk right now

Stormywood- Thank you

Mamahen- It was chilly that day. He has been in the house since birth. His mouth is warm and he is not raspy. I rub him a lot, all over his body.

Tallabred- I'm not 100% sure why his mother died. A day or two after bringing her home, she started showing signs of goat polio, staring up at the sky a lot. We tried treating her with Vitamin B complex, electrolytes, and probios, but she just kept getting weaker, so there may have been a combination of other things going on.
He weighs approx 7 lbs, Her udder wasn't firm, looked like maybe she had recently dried up from her last kid(s). I tried to milk her anyways, hoping to get atleast a little colostrum, but got nothing.

Oat Bucket Farm- If you knew me at all, you would know that my comment was not "snarky". I was just being honest about how Bo-se is so over-rated on this site. If someone posts about their goat having two hairs out of place, someone is sure to answer saying the goat needs Bo-se or copper boluses.
I never asked for a "miracle cure" or a "definitive answer", all I asked for was help to figure out why these things were happening, hoping that maybe, just maybe, someone on a goat forum has actually experienced some of these things before and could share some of the things that have worked for them. It would save me a ton of time weeding out all the useless information about goat illnesses online so I could try treating this baby goat sooner. I'm sure you'd agree that when a goat (or ANY animal for that matter) is sick, time is of the essence. If too much time is wasted, their chance of living isn't great.
Anyways, to answer your question, he got colostrum for a full 24 hours, then gradually switched over to real goat milk. Yes, the colostrum was a powdered mix, which I despise, but it was the best I had.

Bearfootfarm-Since starting this thread, I HAVE CALLED my vet. He did NOT charge me $50, and he did NOT suggest BO-Se. I can not repeat the majority of the things he had to say about BO-Se on here because it would get me banned in a heatbeat! But just so you have a general idea of what he had to say, BO-Se isn't any good for anything! He gave us 2 different meds and only charged......$5!! Can you believe it? lmao

Cannon Farms- He has been keeping a steady temp at 103 today. His nose was fully furred, but his hooves were really soft. They ARE firm now though. He didn't stand up until day 2.

Tallabred- His temp has been steady all day today, but he won't take the bottle, so we have been tube feeding him. He also pooped on his own (no enema) just a couple hours ago. Looks like mustard!

moorland · #23 11/20/10, 04:57 AM

it sounds as if you are doing everything you can for yet
we use black treacle if something hasn't pooed
is goat poilo what we call ccn

Laverne · #24 11/20/10, 05:22 AM

delete respelled Dex

Laverne · #25 11/20/10, 05:25 AM

Dexamethasone helps to mature the lungs. Some give this to premature kids.

steff bugielski · #26 11/20/10, 05:46 AM

If he seems fine all day and not so good in the morning may I ask how often over night you are feeding and how much?

Alice In TX/MO · #27 11/20/10, 07:32 AM

Keep in mind that we are all amateurs, doing the best we can, depending on what we have read and gone through with our goats. Our experiences vary, so our answers vary.

Maybe it was a false expectation to come here looking for immediate miracle answers.

Glad he's doing better.

**mygoat** · #28 11/20/10, 08:03 AM

I know it's not what you wanted to hear, but in most areas BoSe is pretty necessary - unless you're in a rare area that is not deficient (and also your grains and hay are grown in an area that is not deficient). It can help out a surprising bit. The year I started using BoSe, my does stopped retaining their placentas for hours and hours after birth. I remember some of my does would still have afterbirth in them the next day after kidding. Thankfully, whenever I'd go to call the vet to get help, they'd end up passing it - just VERY late. Since I've used BoSe, they pass their afterbirth within a couple hours of kidding.

I also give it to kids at birth, and have since had very little if any trouble with weak joints or general weakness in kids.

But no, it is NOT a cure all, you're right. I do find it odd that your vet thinks BoSe is the devil, though. There is lots of research out there saying that selenium and vitamin E are necessary and often good levels are not reached even when it is supplied in grain and minerals.

It would be my guess that his general weakness is just from being premature. Usually for C-Sections or inducing labor, a shot of dexamethasone is given to the doe, under 5cc depending on size of the goat. This helps develop his lungs for birth and breathing. My guess is that the sliminess in his mouth was just fluids from birthing still in him. I've never heard of giving it to the kids, so can't help you there.

I thought that to treat polio you needed large doses of vitamin b-12? I think that's rx only and you have to get it from your vet. the complex I think has some, but not enough to treat polio.

Tallabred · #29 11/20/10, 08:59 AM

These threads are searched for and read by people looking for an immediate answer to help them with a current problem. That is why you did an initial search.

By stating that the vet does not like Bo-se, but will not say why(after you have stated that you do not want that answer), and that the vet gave two medications for $5, but not what they are, does nothing to help anyone in the future - It just adds to the threads that one will read that provides no help. Please add this information so that we can all learn from it.

I am glad that you liked your vet and that the little guy is still holding on. Good Luck.

Harmony Goats · #30 11/20/10, 09:32 AM

If you can in the spring, even if you dam raise, get some colostrum and put it in your freezer. We bottle raise but we always have colostrum in the freezer, we use it plus we have given a lot away to get kids started. You might check around and see if anyone has any extra if you run into a problem again. Currently we have about 50 sixteen ounce bottles in the freezer, so if anyone ever has a problem and needs some let us know. We are in northern arkansas.
Hope the little buckling is doing better.

goatkid · #31 11/20/10, 09:54 AM

It sounds to me like the doe was stressed from the auction and feed change. She may well have had more than one issue. Polio, ketosis and hypocalcemia come to mind. Since you had no due date for her, you can't tell for sure just how early the kid was born. This would be why the vet gave dex to help develop the lungs. Premie kids have a harder time maintaining their body temperature. It's balance between keeping them warm enough and also not dehydrating them. They can also need more assistance in pooping. If this little guy makes it, it will be important that he's vaccinated with CDT and also for pneumonia since he didn't get antibodies from colostrum. Good luck with the little guy.

Bearfootfarm · #32 11/20/10, 09:55 AM

Quote:

BO-Se isn't any good for anything

If your Vet really said that, he's not too informed about goats

http://sheepandgoat.com/articles/WMD.html

Quote:

What is it?
White muscle disease (WMD) is a degenerative muscle disease found in all large animals. It is caused by a deficiency of selenium and/or vitamin E. Generally, it is not known which. Selenium (Se) deficiency is associated with selenium deficient soils and the inadequate uptake of selenium by forages grown on these soils. Certain areas of the U.S., including the Northeast, are considered low in selenium levels. Selenium deficiency occurs when the soil contains less than 0.5 mg Se/kg of soil and locally harvested feeds contain less than 0.1 mg Se/kg of feed.
Vitamin E deficiency is independent of soil type and more closely reflects forage quality. Grazing animals usually consume adequate amounts of vitamin E. This is because fresh legumes and pasture are good sources of vitamin E, whereas silage, oil seeds, root crops, cereal grains, and dry hays tend to be poor sources of vitamin E. Prolonged storage of feedstuffs results in a degradation of Vitamin E activity, as much as 50% per month.

In addition to WMD, selenium and vitamin E deficiencies can produce symptoms of ill thrift and reproductive losses: lower conception rates, fetal reabsorption, dystocia, retained placenta, reduced milk production, and reduced semen quality. They can cause poor rate of growth or ill thrift in young lambs throughout the growing period. Sheep consuming selenium-deficient diets produce low wool yields and have increased incidence of periodontal disease. Selenium and vitamin E also play key roles in the animal’s normal immune response.

Quote:

When the disease affects the heart, the animal shows signs similar to pneumonia, including difficult breathing, a frothy nasal discharge (may be blood stained), and fever. The heart and respiratory rates are elevated and often irregular. Skeletal and cardiac muscle disease may occur concurrently.

Oat Bucket Farm · #33 11/20/10, 10:43 AM

If you were going to disregard our advice in favor of a vet, why not just go the vet in the first place?

Good luck with this little guy, I hope he does well.

Tallabred · #34 11/20/10, 10:44 AM

I forgot about the vitamin E - that helps a weak baby too.

thaiblue12 · #35 11/20/10, 01:50 PM

You maybe not have meant to sound snarky but the way you typed it, it sounded like it.

First off you said you do not know of any good goat vets and the one you do know is a drunk, so how can you take any of their advice on Bo-Se or anything for that matter?

I have been through bad goat vets who treat goats like cows, or sheep. They know next to nothing about them and are useless. So what meds did he sell you for $5? If it was PenG then you were ripped off, since it will not help him. For $5 at my vet he sells me 2 shots of Nuflor. He is a good goat vet and knows me and trusts me, so he will sell me meds based on what I have found without making me pay for a vet visit.

I have no problem with you not eating him, selling him or putting him down. I have saved goats because I want to. They were asking that because if you planned on eating him somewhere down the line and it cost you $100 in meds then it was not cost effecient to throw everything at him. By all means do whatever you feel comfortable doing and spending on him.

You are in a selenium poor area, what really would it hurt to give him a supplement? I do not use Bo-Se on a regular basis, as I am not in a sel poor area. I do however give it to weak kids. What is the harm in it? None. Sure listen to a bad or drunk vet instead of people who live in your area and have found that is benefits weak goat kids.

I would also stop giving him coffee and other nonsense. He needs milk in his one chambered stomach not empty calories. If he was mine I would have made sure he got real colstrum the first 24 hours. It is too late now.
I would also listen to his chest well to make sure he does not have rattles. Rattles do not show up the first day but can a few days after birth. I would give him warm milk, goat or whole cow from the grocery store. He should have gotten Vit E at birth, but if you did not it can't hurt to give him some now. Also I would give him some Probios to help his stomach. And a of course a shot of Bo-Se, which is helpful. You also do not need to give him an enema. I have kids/infants tyoe of suppositories, they come 6 in a pack and are easy to use and work just fine. Aside from pooping, hopefully he is peeing regularly.

If you do not like our advice then find a good goat vet and have him looked at. I know there are many people who live in MO that can tell you the name of a good vet.

stormywood · #36 11/21/10, 02:59 PM

I was just wondering how you are holding up and how the baby is doing? I hope this finds everything so much better. ~hugs~Stormy