best LG for Cougars

Creamers · #41 09/13/10, 09:49 PM

Yes. Too many people think the dog - because it has instincts to incline it toward guarding animals . . . can just be thrown out with them and do that right thing - instincts need perfected in reality.

jordan · #42 09/14/10, 12:21 AM

You are referring to an English Mastiff and that is a whole different kettle of fish from the Spanish Mastiff. The SM has the speed, agility AND endurance to do the job quite efficiently. The SM is built much differently from the EM. They are longer in body and muzzle (flexabilty and ease of breathing), have a deep barrel, heavy bone, long, powerful legs and have the most beautiful movement that is just poetry to watch

Most importantly, they still have the fearless temperament that doesn't allow them to back down from a threat. I will never, ever forget my (then) 7 month old puppy Isabelle, with her hair raised, lunging, snarling and snapping at a bear we came across when we were traveling through South Dakota 7 years ago...
These dogs were bred to guard their flocks (from wolves in particular) as they traveled over thousands of miles as their flocks are moved from one part of the country to another during the Trashmuncia every year in Spain and still performs as it was intended. Any good LGD should not hunt down a predator, but they do need to have the ability to take them down if all other warnings fail though.
Below are pictures of Moses (205 lbs) and Delilah (175 lbs)

best LG for Cougars - Goats

When you refer to the Bullmastiff (created by crossing an EM with a bulldog) in your story, they were actually called the Nightwatchman's Guard in the 1800's in England and were bred to knock down and hold poachers (usually by sitting on them) until the night watchman could come. So your story of the dog Terror does not surprise me at all.
Lois

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pops2

i don't doubt that if a 200# LGD can actually catch a 50-90# red or mexican grey wolf it could kill it (like say in a pen). but i STRONGLY doubt any dog at 200# has either the raw speed, endurance or agility to actually catch a wolf even the big canadian greys. when Roosevelt was ranching in the badlands he wrote of a neighbor that lost 2 mastiffs to a single large plains wolf in one very short fight. at that time the nearly extinct mastiff was being rebuilt using the bullmastiff Thorneywoods Terror as a foundation stud. Terror (& many of his pups) was noted for his ability to take down and keep down 3 men armed w/ clubs WHILE MUZZLED. now if the dogs were pre Terror the loss is understandable. if they were post terror, that say a ton about wolves.
the wolfers i know right now mostly use stags, greys & lurchers over 60# to take coyotes in the 30-45# range and generally about 3 at a time. or they use packs of 3 or more foxhounds 50-75#.
i'm also intimately familiar w/ the effort it takes to get & keep a bull/mastiff type dog in the shape to run down boar & bear AND catch or fight it when it stops.
so i'm not saying it can't happen, but i am highly skeptical about ANY 200# LGD doing anything to either a wolf or a cougar except for getting on it's nerves.

Cannon_Farms · #43 09/14/10, 06:19 AM

beautiful mastiffs Jordan, I am a fancier of a good dog. I know one of our family dogs killed the cat, just dont know which one, none will mess with them typically but they all hang out under the building where the cat was found.
Im just not to trusting of dogs right now, and do NOT have the patience or time to start a puppy, I have four kids that are driving me nuts, two side jobs and the full time job thats worse than all of it put together

thaiblue12 · #44 09/14/10, 09:37 AM

Fainting goats don't always faint, also once they get use to you and their area they do not faint. But they might still faint if a mountain lion came along, or get stiff legged and run slower than the rest. Usually they good fainting ones around here are a novelity and are sold as pricey pets. I got a doeling that was fairly cheap $60 and after a month she never fainted again, ever.
Not sure how you feel about horns but most do not disbud their fainters.
Lots of breeders of fainting goats think of them as pets so I would not say I was buying them as bait

Maybe a female donkey or gelded male and a few geese. Both will cause quit a disturbance. Geese annoy me with their yelling but it does serve a good purpose as nothing will sneak on to your place. But you would need to watch a donkey close at kidding time or they might injure the new babies.

I do not remember if you posted about your dog doing this. Can I ask if you saw any warning signs or did you get him as a suppose trained dog and just trusted him? I have 2 LGD and I am hoping yours was just a freak occurance. Mine do not kill chickens and have a healthy respect for the goats since they have been beaten by them, but they are still dogs and your post has me a bit worried/curious about why yours suddenly did that.

Creamers · #45 09/14/10, 01:03 PM

Ive thought on this a bit more and guineas are what you need - they will make SO much noise when things are around that should be!

Cannon_Farms · #46 09/14/10, 01:20 PM

I got itty bitty Guineans not quite ready to join the farm scene,

The LGD was half great pry and have anotlian pretty dog and quite the whimp around here very submissive with us. It took us a while to catch him killing the chickens, wasnt sure on the calf as he brought up a carcass of what appeared to be a newborn calf and they can be born dead so I didnt really even think much of that then.
Several months back my kids called said the dogs got a hold of one of my bottle kids said it looked like ranger was trying to carry it and the other dog was trying to pull it, the goat died of a crushed skull. The second goat was a doe due any time and ranger and maybe another dog ran her down and killed her most of the wounds being to the head area, we tried to save the kids but they where just a tad to young. I thought the doe was going to pull through it had I known she was going to die I would have took the babies sooner and put her down as I think they would have made it but died before she did. Then came the last straw when another goat came up dead he was pulled through the fence, this is also when we quit using electric fence as it did not phase ranger or the goats much anymore.
I really think ranger thought he was putting the goats up and thats why he is still living, but his hunting instinct is just too strong so hes serving his purpose as a garden guard for a large organic farm where hes killed several deer and coons . He still comes up and flops over will all four legs up in the air its so hard to believe hes such a serous killer.

Cannon_Farms · #47 09/14/10, 01:22 PM

Oh, and I have found two donkeys but every time I call they are already gone, just my luck..

I dont want a fainting goat, i was just being facetious

CaliannG · #48 09/14/10, 02:01 PM

I have an A.S. I got him when he was 10 months old.

He *started out* chasing everything. We had to take time to train him not to chase the livestock as he had a pretty strong prey drive. (Time is something you don't seem to have any of right now, so I can understand your reluctance to get a new dog.) Now, he ignores goats and chickens, ADORES the horse. When he is inside, and one of my macaws manages to flop himself onto the floor, my A.S. will nudge him towards the perch and lay down, providing a barrier towards any cats who might think to take advantage of the bird's lower situation. (Not that they WOULD, they have a high respect for that beak!)

However, he has chased, caught, and *killed* coyotes.

A thought I had, since you do have so many dogs: Do you have any large, male dogs? Like lab sized or better? I have found that they best deterrent against predators is dog pee, especially male dog pee. So you might want to take a male dog and just walk him around the perimeter of your property every six weeks and let him mark the area.

Heck, for that, you could *borrow* a friend's or neighbor's LGD every four to six weeks and just take him for a walk around your fence-line. A couple of friends of mine in Colorado, who had small properties, limited resources, and no dog savvy, have done that and it has worked for them. Coyotes, wolves AND cougars stopped bothering their livestock.

That way, you wouldn't have to worry about the dog turning on your livestock, as he would only *be* there once every 4-6 weeks, and the time he was there, he could be kept completely under control and on a lead.

I say "he" because, for some reason, male dog urine seems to be scarier to predators than female dog urine. LGD urine also seems to be scarier than, say, Newfoundland or St. Benard urine...which, in turn, is scarier than Chihuahua urine. Urine in canines appears to be a complete FBI profile to other canines or predators...I don't know how they do it.

At any rate, it is something you might try if you know anyone with an LGD. ~grinz~ All the benefits, none of the dog food?

Cannon_Farms · #49 09/14/10, 02:13 PM

Problem with ranger was he was very very sly and sneaky, which is why it took me forever to narrow it down to him killing the chickens.
The coyotes dont like fire crackers and have stayed away, those guys will get us up with there cackling just the stealth of a lion that no one can have much warning of.
I have a lab, he wont go past the horseshoe shaped yard we have so he sucks for that thought.
I could just sell the goats and not have to worry about it, but what fun would life be then

CaliannG · #50 09/14/10, 02:35 PM

~smiles~ Selling the goats is not an option.

Well, between guineas, donkeys, and maybe dog pee if you can have someone with one close by, that should make it easier to keep your mind at rest about goats.

We have a melanistic cougar around here. Took a calf from a guy down the road, etc. They haven't managed to track it down yet, so the thing is still at large. ~shrugs~ It hasn't bothered the folks with small stock yet, so far, it has only gone after cattle. Then again, this is Texas, and there is a LOT of cattle around here.

Maybe it won't even come close to your place if it has plenty of deer and stuff that it is used to munching on. In Colorado, the cougars generally have to get an idea that livestock is REALLY tasty before they will brave getting close to human habitations to take some. Most of them would rather go hunt the plentiful deer than risk a chance at rifle shot.

It's the young, dumb ones that are generally a problem. The old, wise ones know to stay the heck away.

Pops2 · #51 09/14/10, 08:27 PM

Terror is the reason they came to be called the nightwatchmans dog, before that they were the gamekeepers nightdog. the game keepers invented them for catching poachers. the welsh tended to add hound into the breeding for better nose and for some reason houndX mastiff tend to make them much more man aggressive. the welsh dogs were known to be mankillers. Terrors exhibitions were so impressive the police & private security took to using the gamekeepers dogs. Terror was about half the size of your Moses.
here is a pic of Terror.
best LG for Cougars - Goats

dogs that are expected to engage & kill stuff are usually not that big because, although they look impressive, it slows them down and makes them vulnerable in a real fight.

Pops2 · #52 09/14/10, 08:30 PM

Forgot to say Jordan
very nice looking Mastin.

jordan · #53 09/17/10, 12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pops2

Forgot to say Jordan
very nice looking Mastin.

Thanks Pops!
Most of the Bullmastiffs today are more than a bit overdone and have lost their flexability, and unfortunately the amazing temperament that they had even a decade ago. When comparing the English imports and the US bred dogs, they almost appear to be two different breeds now

I will never forget the Bullies I had, but will never get another either.
Lois

LFRJ · #54 09/17/10, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaiblue12

Maybe a female donkey or gelded male and a few geese. Both will cause quit a disturbance. Geese annoy me with their yelling but it does serve a good purpose as nothing will sneak on to your place.

I'm not sure geese (or guineas) would be a realistic solution.

We have two farm collies. They alert us to anything they deem a threat. (Our geese honk all the time. We pay no attention to their racket anymore and are pretty much conditioned to tune it out).

The dogs, on the other hand, are much more discerning about what they're barking after. They will take out a raccoon, but I don't think they'd take on a coyote or a cat...however, they don't have to. Their presence alone deters most predators, or has so far. The only losses we've had in over a year has occurred when temps were so low the dogs couldn't be out. I worry about coyote packs, but the cats steer clear and head for greener - quieter pastures.

Haven · #55 09/17/10, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pops2

of a neighbor that lost 2 mastiffs to a single large plains wolf in one very short fight. at that time the nearly extinct mastiff was being rebuilt using the.

Thats the problem with so many of the large bulky breeds, They lack the agility to take on wild animals. A wolf could probably run 20 circles around a pack of Mastiffs nowadays and never get touched. Thats why the smaller agile breeds like Malinois are replacing Shepherds in military and police work.

jordan · #56 09/17/10, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haven

Thats the problem with so many of the large bulky breeds, They lack the agility to take on wild animals. A wolf could probably run 20 circles around a pack of Mastiffs nowadays and never get touched. Thats why the smaller agile breeds like Malinois are replacing Shepherds in military and police work.

Please see my post above. Not all Mastiff breeds are the same and should not be grouped in with the English Mastiff (which is the breed Pops2 was referring to). Throughout it's history, the EM in NOT and never has been considered a livestock guard and never should be mistaken for one.
The smaller breeds may be able to catch a wolf, but then what? They don't have the strength to take one down.
Lois

Molly Mckee · #57 09/17/10, 02:14 PM

I asked my DD & SIL , ranchers in E OR who have plenty of experience with mules. They both thought a mule would not be much of a guardian. While they can kill cats, most are not going to protect others.
They raise cattle but said other than dogs, sheep herders in their area use burros to help the dogs protect the sheep. However most herders there are from South America and actually live in wagons during the summer with the herd of sheep. The burros alert, the dogs drive the cat, coyote, or wolf toward the herder, who shoots it.
If you can't put them in a barn, I would fence off a small area and the tarp it to use at night. Cats to not like anything over their heads so will most likely leave the goats alone.

Haven · #58 09/17/10, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jordan

Please see my post above. Not all Mastiff breeds are the same and should not be grouped in with the English Mastiff (which is the breed Pops2 was referring to). Throughout it's history, the EM in NOT and never has been considered a livestock guard and never should be mistaken for one.
The smaller breeds may be able to catch a wolf, but then what? They don't have the strength to take one down.
Lois

Yea I was referring to the lack of agility in the English and Bull Mastiff Types. I'm not sure the Neo could do much of anything nowadays other than limp around a show ring blinded by layers of skin folds...

jordan · #59 09/17/10, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haven

Yea I was referring to the lack of agility in the English and Bull Mastiff Types. I'm not sure the Neo could do much of anything nowadays other than limp around a show ring blinded by layers of skin folds...

Isn't that sad? Why is it that breeders (mostly here in the US) feel they have to breed for the most exagerated specimen and then the judges perpetuate the problem by choosing them in the show ring?

Lois