Son in Laws's Goats die

A tad off topic but, I was at a fair this weekend and noticed tons of goats coughing. Is this a symptom of pneumonia, or were they passing around some other respiratory bug?

Pneumonia, lungworm, or cud....

From what I have read many times if a goat is getting proper mineral amounts, it helps them fight worms, especially if they are getting enough copper. Not having a balance opens any goat up for worm overloads. Then frequent worming can cause upset in the stomach (throwing the rumen off) so would always follow any treatment with probiotic's and maybe even some balancer.
A container of probiotic's doesn't cost that much and has lasted me a year so far, same with the bag of balancer.
Hmmm just had a thought...what grain was he feeding? Goat chow or mixed? If it was goat chow was it medicated as well?

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The more I know people … the more I respect animals.
Lovn Ivy Farm
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Well, these goats had a mineral salt block made specifically for goats, as well as a regular salt block.
The grain being fed was "All Stock", which is basically a sweet mix, from what I could see.
It is sold at TSC.
I'll tell him about the probiotic and balancer.

There is so much to learn about dairy goats and goat care that it can be overwhelming. They are not an 'easy care' animal.

Ivomec is not labeled for goats. The dosage on the label is not correct for goats, it is MUCH too low.

Here is the info needed for dosing goats with deworming products:
http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=8934.0

Although there are mineral blocks that say "goat" on them, goats have slick tongues and don't do well with hard mineral blocks. Most dairy goat owners feed loose minerals that are high in copper, a trace element that is *extremely* important for goat health. Cargill makes a loose mineral for cattle called Right Now - Onyx that is excellent for goats.

Dairy goats are not supposed to be "thin" and have rough coats as you mentioned in your original post. They don't normally carry a lot of extra flesh, but they aren't thin.

This is my LaMancha, Cocoa:

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Alice
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"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Your goat looks thin to me.......
My Saanens might be a little fat, then?
His Alpines looked EXACTLY like your La Mancha, up till 3 days before death.
I have a big 33 lb. goat block inside the building for my goats, and they have "worked it over" pretty good.
I'll see about getting some loose salt for mine, in fact TSC also sells loose mineral salt.
I will read the goat worming article.
Thus far, his 2 older Alpines are alive and doing fine(perhaps his losses is over).

If you are judging by the hip bone, that's a shadow from the sun. My goat is not thin. She is, in fact, just a bit fleshy.

Thin means you can see the back bone bumps and rib bones.
Here's an article on goat body condition.
http://www.dairygoatjournal.com/issu...rs-Raybon.html

Body condition scoring video (meat goats)

The key in the mineral is copper. Copper helps keep worms down, and it is essential for hoof/hair/skin health, fertility, etc. Check the copper ppm.

We aren't picking on you. We are trying to provide info and figure out what can help his remaining goats. His goats didn't die from ringworm. They either died from malnutrition, worm infestation, or disease. Without more specific data from a necropsy and from fecal results on the remaining goats, we are guessing and providing you with basic goat health information that has been proven to be critical to long term goat health.

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Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

Well, that means my 3 old Saanen doe, just might be a tad overweight!!!
LOL, I don't feel "picked upon", I was just making an observation(as best that can be done in a picture).
I hope that boy gets back soon with word on the stool samples he took.....
I thank one and all for the advise, and I treated ALL of the goats, with Ivermectin(per the goat website given), and put electrolyte water for ALL of them.
I do NOT want what has hit his goats, to hit mine.
The two Alpines he has left, though, appears to have recovered from this, for they are acting more like their own selves and are looking much better.
My goats NEVER got hit by it, but who is taking chances?
I have 3 Saanen does, a Kiko/Boer buck, 1 Saanen buck, 2 Nigerian does, 2 Nigerian bucks, and 1 pygmy doe, and I surely want nothing to happen to them.

Potbelly, I mentioned in another thread that I was looking at the ingredients on the mineral blocks from TSC the other day, and the goat blocks had zero copper in them. Interestingly, the deer blocks did have copper. From what I have learned, the blocks are pretty much a waste compared to the loose minerals.

The weather here in Ohio has been very wacky this year. Between 2 months of non stop rain this spring, and the hot muggy humidity we have been having all summer...I wouldn't be surprsied if they had some massive worm outbreak.

Thanks for the info.
I'm going to TSC, and buy some of that Right Now Onyx and Copper bolusing come payday(which is Thursday)........
It probably wouldn't hurt, seeing about some vitamins as well.
Like I said before, I don't want my goats to get what the Son-In-Law's got!!!

Ok, i am a manager at tsc and sweet mix is a crap feed, read the label good enough and its mostly undigestable matter and just because the feed test at a certain % doesnt mean thats what your animal is getting. Matter of fact im not happy with hardly any of our goat feeds but somes better than others.
I can only hope you mean the mana pro mineral and not the billy block, that doesnt cut it.
Copper bolus are sold on here by myself and other person for .75 cents to a buck a each, mine are more expensive but i use a different capsule, bet that can be dug out of a couch.
Im going with coccidia or barber pole worms, we worm almost exclusively with copper bolus but for lung worms we use ivomect.
Im in a grumpy mood anyway so I tend to loose some grace, but it seems like you auto reject anything any one says, and not very appreciative of the effort of offered help, but that could just be me, I have not been well for several days.

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I'm a goat person, not a people person,
De @ Udderly Southern Dairy Goats
we will be adding a new breed in the spring

You might want to check into Johne’s Disease (chronic incurable infection of the intestines by Mycobacterium johnei bacterium. Causes a thickening of the intestine wall and inability to digest feed). Symptoms include lLoss of condition, scouring, becoming more frequent with bubbles of gas in the droppings. Weakness. Thirst may increase.

I agree with Canon about the sweet feed, but hadn't said anything yet because you are getting swarmed with new information.

__________________
Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

I'm not rejecting anything, merely pointing out what I do know about his goats.
I guess I will no longer buy "All Stock"9which to me, looks a lot like sweet feed) for my goats, if it is worthless.
The salt block that he uses is Billy Block!
I have for my goats a 33 lb. block made for goats(so the label says).
I'm going to get copper bolus, vitamins, and loose mineral salts for my goats.
I'm sorry, if you didn't read the "thank you to all" I wrote earlier......
His goats seem to be drastically improving.
Now, I wish to avoid his problem, with my goats....
Thanks for the info. :-)

You're right, I am getting swamped, but it is a good swamped, if you know what I mean!
I had a real hard time answering them all, the questions/solutions were coming so fast!
I was reading on another thread, that a fellow Copper boluses every 6 months, plus he put out Right Now Onyx.
He also gives his goats Bo-Se every 6 months.
He also said he fed 3 parts oats to 1 part black sunflower seeds.
Does this sound good to you?
Any advise is greatly appreciated.

Can this be detected by stool droppings?
Is it manageable or does the goat simply die?
Is it spreadable from one herd to another?

I got my herd to think about as well!
Any info. is greatly appreciated!

You can't avoid the issue again if you don't know what it was....

Do you have results from the fecal?

I'm leaning towards HC. If it was indeed HC eyelids would be pale, in that case a high dose course of Red Cell is in order. Are the 2 remaining goat lower eyelids pale?

Johne's would be would be spanned out a bit on the deaths, if I'm reading right 4 goats died within 2-3 days of each other. Is this correct? Johne's would not kill 4 goats in that little time, assuming it was withing just a few days but we still don't know the time frame between the 1st & the 4th goat death.

It's wonderful to correct deficiencies & management, but it still has not been determined why the others died.

The kitchen sink is great, but we still need to sort them out for easy washing and organizing.
HF

I second looking into johne's disease. The blood tests are accurate, but with the year of incubation time you'd have to test 2x per year to know if you were 'clean' and maintain your herd as a 'clean' herd. The idea is to catch them as they start to shed the bacteria, so isolation/culling can be implemented. They can be infected and not shedding the bacteria yet... in which case you need to retest to make sure the animals don't START to shed the bacterium, and try to catch it as soon as possible after they shed it, to reduce incidence. Fecal testing is a bit pricier but more accurate, as johne's is a fecal-oral pathogen that is shed in the feces.

At this point he could either fecal test the remainder of the herd, or get a necropsy done.

Most of the infection that occurs with Johne's is with young animals in their parent herd, when their immune system is fairly minimal... spread can be reduced by pulling kids at birth along with a culling/isolation/testing program. I BELIEVE I remember reading it only lives in soil for a relatively short amount of time - a year or so?

Of course, isolation and disease testing should be a part of EVERYONE'S normal procedure, because there are several diseases to worry about besides this one.

Johne's runs rampant through many dairy cow farms, and possibly beef farms as well. It's not cost efficient to test for many of those herds... despite a possible link to chrones disease in humans. (Also, the damage that would be done to dairy/beef industries would be astronomical.... I for one believe they don't WANT to know...) However, if a homesteader then buys feeder calves from a large local dairy and brings them to the farm, they can be bringing the bacterium in on hooves or can contract it themselves and shed it in the pasture later. It's also yet another reason not to buy animals from auction, as a LOT of people take sick animals to auction when they show signs of a disease, instead of directly butchering it.

The link to chrone's disease in humans may be enough motivation for him to spend the money on testing or necropsy.

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

I just remembered you said the goats were similar in weight to the above picture... if that's the case, then it's likely that it was NOT johne's, however, as animals that die of johne's are EMACIATED, despite a good diet.

Alternately, If they had longer rough coats that shedded out poorly (from worm load/copper issues), it could also be covering up their true condition.

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

Yes, all 4 of his 6 goats died within days of each other(in fact, just days apart).
I did not note the specific days, however(forgive me).
I do not, as of yet have his fecal results.
I can go check the eyelids to see if they are pale, and get back with you.
Thanks for the info. Happy Farmer!

Well he certainly didn't buy these from an auction or sale barn.
These are registered,(unlike my own), and have been in his family for quite a few years now(though, by the way they were fed and taken care of, I don't know how).
So, if it is this disease, how did his goats get it?
Thanks for the info.
I hope he'll soon have the fecal results.