Geiss, first of all I would like to thank you for having this discussion without resorting to mud slinging......and acting like you are superior to everone who may not share your point of view.:goodjob:

re: data collection and not an ethics issue. IMO, if an animal is in an environment where it is being injured, then, IMO, it is an ethics issue. And then one needs to set a criteria for how much will be allowed.....seriousness of injury, number of occurrences, etc.

re: Alpines and aggressiveness. Some people think that they are. Other people have said that other breeds are more aggressive. I think that there is more variation within a breed than between breeds.

Agressiveness is somethng that I cull for. There will always be some head butting to establish the pecking order within the herd. But I had a couple that seemed to develop the habit of just going around and beating on the other goats. I sent those to the auction pretty quickly.

I asked about size because it is hard to tell just from pictures.....The Norwegian dairy goats in the pictures that you posted seem to be somewhere in-between our "standard-sized" dairy goats and the mini's. As I said I cannot really tell from the pictures. I would guess their weights to be around 75-85 #. I could be way off on my "guesses."

If my guess is in the ballpark........then an Alpine, combined with the larger size of horn.....and wieghing 150-200 # would have quite a bit more potential to do some damage iwth their horns....?????

Geiss, thanks for sharing on this forum.....I find it interesting to learn things from other countries......even if I don't necessarily adopt their practices.

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic? I don't think I'm superior.

I think you misunderstand. What we're talking about is collecting data from herds that already exist per the owners wishes. Collecting their records of injuries and occurrences. That would mean no invasion on the collectors' part and hence an ethics committee wouldn't have any issues with it.
I'm quite sure they wouldn't have an issue if someone were to get their own herds and test either, after all, keeping animals horned is perfectly legal (and therefore not deemed unethical). If the injuries were so severe and/or high in numbers that the researchers decide to call it quits, that says something too (it would be proof, wouldn't it?).

The reason I ask is that maybe the Alpine isn't the way to go, if they have bigger/more troublesome horns and are more prone to beating each other up. After all, in your arguments the difference between Alpines and everything else seems to be the point.

I did some searching and found that a Norwegian Dairy goat weighs between 45(100 pounds) and 75kg (165 pounds), average doe weight being 50kg (110 pounds). The average doe produces 560 litres (148 gallons) of milk per year.

Um...ooooowwwwwww! (on the branding)

This is probably :bdh: by now but,

As far as goats feeling disbudding pain, I am not sure they feel pain on their heads the way we do. I know if I bashed heads with someone the way my goats bash heads in play I would probably be unconcious or at the very least have a serious headache and massive bruises. But then I don't think scrubbing my head on a tree would feel very good either but my goats seem to enjoy it.

I was not being sarcastic at all. It was a sincere expression.

The "ethics" part would be if the person became aware of the incidnce of injury, then, IMO, they would have a responsibility to address the issue.

I only speak to Alpines because that is the only breed that I have. Years ago I did have a grade Toggenberg, along with the Alpines. She was the most aggressive goat I have ever had......and I did not keep her very long.

Thank you for doing the research on the size of the breeds. My "guesses" were not very accurate.

The milk production is interesting.......according to ADGA, the average Alpine (the ones on "test") produced 2278# of milk. Assuming 8#/gallon......that would be about 284 gallons/year

http://adga.org/DHIR/09breed_lactation_averages.htm

Then there are the "Superstars".....the top ten producers....some of which milked over 4000#/year......over 500 gallons/years. (Truly the exceptional animals.)

http://adga.org/DHIR/ABLv.55.htm

That's an pretty good point although goats' skulls are much thicker than ours and that's why they don't knock themselves out. But you'd think they'd be really bruised.
And now I also have a very funny image of you scrubbing your head on a tree!

:grit: Yep, what Minelson said.

Then thank you. :)

Of course - like I said, if such an incidence of injury occurred that they felt it needed to be aborted, that would itself be worth something. It would show that it is in no way the right way to do things. I just don't think that would be the outcome at all.

That is interesting. I wonder how they compare if we totaled in feed consumption and number of goats. I don't know how much forage time US dairy goats have either, ours ususally pasture when there isn't snow.
It wouldn't surprise me if US goats have a higher yield due to different management practices.

[QUOTE=Geiss;4563883]I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic? I don't think I'm superior.


It sounded like a nice compliment to me :) :clap:

Hm, that sounds real comfy. I might try that myself. Maybe I'll get a concussion doing that?:baby04:

Scrubbing your head on a tree? Sounds like a YouTube moment. ;)

I will start another thread on this....

MOST animals don't express pain the way we do....and again, that is due to the necessity of seeming healthy in the wild.

Think of it this way: If we were to have a bad case of an upset tummy, we might spend 5 minutes at worship in front of the Porcelain God, then another 15 minutes sitting on the edge of the bathtub, panting and moaning.

A dog or a cat will simply yak, then walk off as if it is no big deal.

Same with other aspects. We are not the only mammals that experience orgasm. However, we are the only ones that will lay about, sweating, panting and discussing the need for a cigarette after one. The rest of the mammals that experience such climax wander off afterward as if it were nothing.

Scientific studies have shown that animals feel pain just as much as we do. However, their EXPRESSION of pain or discomfort is a lot less than our. This makes perfect sense; the goat or sheep that is moaning, limping heavily, or otherwise acting in distress is the one that is going to attract the attention of a predator as a perfect target for lunch.

That is a HUGE problem for people that keep birds, especially the more expensive parrots. By the time a parrot shows *symptoms* of a problem, you might have an hour, maybe two, before the bird dies from whatever problem it has. They will act nearly completely normal until they are about to keel over. This has become a part of them because a bird in the wild that shows symptoms of illness or injury is a bird that has a huge, red target on it, and it will sometimes be torn to bits by its own flock.

Let's engage in some anthropomorphizing, though. Let's put this in human terms.

The soldier who has been shot and has to get some stitching up. He is sitting there while someone digs out a bullet, cleans out his wound, puts stinging antiseptic on it, and stitches him up. He doesn't even budge the entire time or show anything. Are we to assume that because he isn't showing any outward sign that it doesn't HURT like the dickens?

The woman who has the flu, but still is up cleaning her house, fixing dinner for her husband and children, canning the last of the tomatoes, and feeding the chickens. Are we to assume that because she is up doing all of these things for her family, instead of laying in bed and moaning, that she still doesn't feel like heck?

The farmer who has an accident, walks back to his house and has his wife take him to the hospital due to a broken arm. The bone is poking through the skin. When he gets there, he conversationally tells the doctor, "Yep, doc, I seem to have a bit of a problem. Mind fixin' it up for me? If yer busy, I can stop by later." Maybe he just doesn't feel pain like the rest of us do?

Just because a person or creature does not EXPRESS pain does not mean they do not FEEL pain. When I smile and speak sweetly to the nice lady who is asking me if I want to participate in the church yard sale this year, it does NOT mean that, internally, I an not fervently praying that a lightening bolt will come out of the sky RIGHT THEN and strike me dead so I don't have to suffer from the *screaming* headache I have managed to acquire.

Studies have shown that animals feel pain just like we do, even if they are stoic about it. So yes, what we do to them hurts....and it would be nice if we applied anesthesia just like we do for dogs and cats.

When we spay and neuter dogs and cats, we use anesthesia and pain medication (as well as E-collars). When dogs get their tails docked or their ears cut, the vet uses anesthesia. Then the vet prescribes pain pills for a while, as well as topical, painkilling salves and creams. No one argues that such major and minor surgeries are painful for dogs and cats, so why do so many refuse to admit that such things hurt goats, sheep, horses, and cows as well?

Color me confused. Humans and their idiosyncrasies baffle me.

~smiles~ However, I have a simple answer for the rubbing of heads against a nice, rough branch.....

Yep, rubbing my forehead against a rough tree trunk would NOT feel good. But there have been any number of times when i have been outside, sweating, with said sweat running RIGHT down the middle of my back, dirty, with grass and straw everywhere and filthy hands, where I I rubbed my BACK against a tree trunk, getting that ONE spot between the shoulder blades that I couldn't reach, and nearly died of a mixture of ecstasy and relief. Oh, is there ANY better feeling that one can have with one's clothes on than an itch being scratched?

A couple of times, when it was a BAD itch, I was even pretty rough on that tree.

Now, I can reach my forehead if it itches, and do so pretty easily. However, the top of the forehead for goats is about like between the shoulder blades for me. If you twist a bit, and contort a little, you CAN reach it, but not with a whole lot of force. Therefore, i can well imagine if they got an itch there, how they might be just as rough on a branch with their forehead as I am on the tree trunk with my back in some instances.

I can GUARANTEE that I would be a LOT rougher on that tree trunk when I had a bad itch if I was wearing a coat on my back like the goats are on their heads.

I don't think that how a goat treats an itch can be a good measure of how much a goat feels pain. I have had bug bites or rashes where, although I exerted extreme self control and DID NOT scratch them... as soon as I fell asleep and did not have that conscious self control in action, they got scratched. A couple of times, I have woken up with a completely raw spot where an ant bite had been the previous day.

Does the fact that I have scratched a bug bite raw, and still stayed asleep, mean that I don't feel pain?

Just a bit more for folks to think about.

Actually yes, they very well may feel pain differently. My husband has an extemely hugh tolerance for pain. If you pinch very hard, it won't bother him. Do it to me and I will holler about it. He isn't ticklish either. He does feel pain, just not as easily as I do.

I'm not saying that goats don't feel pain, I'm just saying they may not feel as much on their heads as we do. I have seen baby goats playing head butting games within a week of disbudding. Just like they feel cold but don't mind laying on the snow (something we would get chilled doing even in winter clothes)in the sunshine while they chew their cud and don't need shoes on their feet to them from getting cold.

Never had a goats feet freeze... did you? They feel cold just like you and me. They get used to it. Just like you would if you lived in a cold climate.

Let's all agree to each his own. You do what you are comfortable with and what your market bears and the rest of us will do what we are comfortable with and what our markets bear.
It is a :bdh: but it has been civil unlike times past :)

I would like to try scratching my head on a tree, lol but I have none :( the goats ate them all :D

They don't get used to it. they have a more specialized circulartory sytem in their extremities than humans do. Humans would never get used to going barefoot in the snow. Well, maybe over a few thousand years and the loss of a whole lot of feet.

There seems to be a lot of confusion around when it comes to pain and the way we perceive it. Pain is just that - a perception. It is the body telling us that something is wrong so we can do something about it.
The idea that animals feel pain differently or less than we do has been in the company of the idea that infants feel pain differently as well. None are true.

We share our method of pain perception with vertebrate animals all the way down to frogs. This makes perfect sense, as human, goat, dog and frog alike need to know when their body is being harmed - or else they would soon perish. If pain wasn't so painful we would be able to ignore it - again, putting ourselves at risk. This is equally necessary for all living things.

However - what and how much the body and brain deem as painful stimulus varies. It is closely linked with how potentially harmful the stimulus actually is. Adversely, things the body programs as necessary and benefitial are deemed pleasureful. Like eating things high in fat or sugar (very scarce commodities in our not-so-distant past) and reproducing.

Yes, we have different thresholds of pain. Some are more sensitive to certain stimuli than others, and vice versa. We can not necessarily judge how sensitive an individual is to a certain stimulus by noticing if they scream and writhe or not - the way we express pain does not equal how we experience it.
That is why we need to look deeper, at what is going on inside the body that might alert us to the answer. We need to see how the animals body reacts internally to the stimulus, if it causes immediate and/or long term behavioural change in any way. We've come a pretty long way in recognizing behavioural patterns that indicate pain in our animals. After all, heart rate, breathing rate, blood pressure and blood or saliva chemical levels isn't so easy for most of us to keep track of.


Expression of pain is another adaptation, it may be benefitial or detrimental to let our surroundings know that something is painful, sometimes this is expressed indirectly as aggression (get away or I'll attack) rather than directly as pain (ow, you're hurting me).
Avoiding expression of pain is done to avoid looking weak, alerting predators or pack members to an easy target and to enhance the chance of reproduction (all animals are programmed to look for a set of traits in their partner, if one is "off", chances increase it will be discarded as a mate).
We express pain AS pain (ow, that hurts) to alert our pack members to a threat, or to communicate to another pack member to stop hurting us.
We also express pain as aggression, in an attempt to threaten the offending individual to stop, without making us look weak.

Expressions of pain can also be in the form of trying to alleviate it, not to communicate it. These can be very subtle signs, and it is vital we know what to look for in our animals.

Here are a few things that indicate pain:
*unusual body posture
Banded lambs may lay flat on their sides, lie with their hind legs stretched out, sit "like a dog" (keeping their scrotums up from the ground), lean sideways against objects, stand perfectly still, arch their backs.
*abnormal gait
Swaying walk, walking backwards/in circles, limping.
*raised or lowered activity
Restlessness, kicking feet, rolling, jumping, tail wagging - or reduced normal activity
*abnormal facial expression
Eyes wide open, ears set back, mouth flabbing - banded lambs may curl their lip as in rut.
*vocalization
Bleeting, crying, grunting, alarm sounds.
*changed mental state
Sleepy, grumpy, hazy, anxious, dull, depressed, excitable, aggressive, shy.
*altered evoked behavior
Change in normal instinctive reactions, such as running away from danger
*change in behavioural patterns
Eating, sleeping and chewing cud in a different time of day, or reduction of those activities
*trembling
Shaking in the abscence of cold
*responsiveness to pain medication
If the animal changes after being given an appropriate dose of pain relievers, there was pain present.

I recommend this page to read about various pain behaviours and see some pictures:
http://www.link.vet.ed.ac.uk/animalp.../behaviour.htm



Detecting temperature is another sense entirely. When we feel pain from burns, it is PAIN we are feeling, not warm temperature. When we get frostbite we are feeling the pain signals (not cold temperature) the body is sending to the brain - because the tissues are starting the process of dying off.

Now it REALLY is time for me to get off my soap box....

good post

Great post Geiss!!

I know, we’re all sick of this thread :run: – yet we keep coming back to read more!

Caliann, I certainly agree with you that they feel pain, as I said; their nervous systems are no different than ours really. I'm not trying to be arguementive in any way but I'll just come out and say this to you though. You've pretty much said that if we disbud, we are treating our animals badly, don't care, don't respect them, are abusing them, etc. I take huge issue with that because it is very unfair. I happen to care very deeply how my animals feel. I HATE disbudding (and tattooing) and making them feel any pain, discomfort or stress. In my heart of hearts, I KNOW my goats are safer without horns so I elect to disbud and I would only dehorn under very certain circumstances (which I can't think of any at this moment) and would have a veterinarian do it under sedation. I do my BEST to manage any pain I cause for those procedures. Geeze, I even took one little doe to a chiropractor (and I was fully prepared to put her down if it didn't work). Between that and some physical and relaxation therapy (lots of rocking to sleep!), she's never had any problems since.
When my son was a baby, I had to take him to his pediatrician for those dang childhood immunizations. He was stressed, felt intense pain and fear, and he suffered like hell all that day, all night, and most of the next day, even with medication. I rocked him and cried along with him until I was SICK. Was I abusing him? Was I mistreating him? (I sure did felt like I had) It was for his benefit in the long run (and some will argue that one too).
Ever have to dig a splinter out of yourself with a needle? Hurts like the dickens but if you don't do it and deal with some pain you'll get an infection.
Does anyone go to the dentist and have their teeth cleaned because it feels so relaxing and enjoyable? I think not. But it's necessary for their own good.
My goat kids suffer for about 20 seconds and they're over it and again, I medicate then an hour before the procedure to help with pain and swelling. It works for me and I have the utmost respect and love for my goats. They're treated better then I treat myself.
I don't mind anyone expressing their feelings about anything but when round-about accusations are made of some being abusive and uncaring, well I don't appreciate that in any way, shape, or form. However, I do sincerely appreciate and respect that you are sensitive to an animal’s feelings and well-being. Thank you for that.
Evidently the OP has weighed the information given and made their own informed decisions about disbudding and whichever way that goes is up to them.

Please, do not take this the wrong way. I certainly believe you do what you know how, to make sure your goats are well cared for.
I simply want to ask you this:
You mentioned earlier that you give banamine, right? That is an NSAID, equivalent to ibuprofen in humans. As far as I can tell, it has roughly the same usage. Why not go "heavier" and make sure they are comfortable both during and after the procedure?
Like I said earlier, I have myself been branded, and it hurts ALOT afterwards because the body keeps sending pain signals from the surrounding tissue (alarm alarm, this part's been damaged). Maybe even some numbing gel on the burns and surrounding skin would help? General or local anaesthetic or heavier pain meds certainly would.

Again, not an attack - I just wonder why...

I have been in and out of goats for about 30 years. The first time I was in goats, I became good friends with my vet. At that time, he told me that goats did not handle most of the pain medications and anesthesia. He said he "counted his lucky stars" if a goat survived a surgery. He said that the surgery almost never killed the goat, but the anesthesia often did. He gave a goat less than a 50-50 chance of surviving the anesthesia.

At least here in the US, most drugs that are used in goats are "off label" use. That means that the manufacturer has done no testing for goats, and is not making any recommendations.

And my vet told me recently that the FDA had told him that they are gong to be scrutinizing 'off label' use more closely......and will be doing audits on vets.

Banamine.....and I am sure most other of the more effective pain meds are "prescriotion-only,".......and it is often difficult to find a vet that includes goats as part of their practice. A vet like that is usually very reluctant to write a prescription for a situation or an anmal that they are not familar with.

And, actually the FDA had announced that they were considering banning ALL off label use of prescriotion drugs. I believe because there was such an outcry from breeders of animals lilke goats, llamas, and alpacas......the FDA has backed off of that stance for now.

Do you have easier access to pain meds in Norway??.....and are goats included on the label?

BTW, my ex-wife was Norwegian.....and 2 of her cousins visited Norway, met some pretty neat men......moved to Norway, got married, and are still there...and their parents moved back to Norway also. (I do not remember what cities they live in.)

No, Norway is VERY strict, which I am quite thankful for, even though it makes life harder sometimes. Virtually nothing is over-the-counter and only proffesionals are allowed to do surgical procedures. Therefore we have very limited issues with drug resistance. Sadly, it's now seeping in from abroad with all living things moving around so much beyond borders.

And no, goat medicine is not a focus point, things are done on a trial basis, and if it seems to work it is used. In order for it to be approved, extensive testing is needed and for such "small and therefore uneconomic" animals it just isn't done. The same with dogs and cats, often you will receive drugs intended for human use that are not listed in the Veterinary Catalogue (we have online-available catalogues of all approved human and animal drugs that list all characteristics, uses and effects). If I search for "goat" I get five hits, not much to speak of...
I also get a few hits on general advice on use, like NSAIDS - it states that NONE of them are approved for goats or sheep, and none of them have recommended withdrawal times (milk and meat). However, dosages for four different NSAIDS are listed for goats.
The same is true for opioids. Buprenorfin and Butorfanol are opioids listed for goats.
For anaesthesia Xylazin is recommended, with atipamezol as reverser ("wake up shot"). Another anaesthetic listed is Detomidin.

After my dog had surgery I was given tablets of Buprenorfin (brand name Temgesic) as pain killer. These are made for human use and are quite powerful, and obviously safe for goats. If anyone is interested in dosages I can list them for you.

My point is not that they need to be completely gone when things are done /that is always risky in any animal), a fraction of the dosage would still relieve them of a LOT of pain!

Can't really grasp that one.. Sometimes I wish I lived in a country where you could still have some right of property.. Some say we're the last Soviet state. :censored:

The parents came back to the states fairly often to visit......and they would say if both of their daughters were not there, then they would not be there. And they claimed that they would be back in the states very quickly if "anything were to happen." (I never asked for details of what they meant by that.)

I don't feel attacked at all. :)
I work very closely with my vets - one who raises Angoras, another who is livestock specialist (his older partner stays in office and does the small animals). There's been a lot of communication, questions and answers and hands on lessons. I'm so very thankful to have access to both of them. Once a year I make a list of Rx meds I think I need to have on hand. We discuss what he feels I need to have and he calls in the scripts for me.
You can only go so heavy with pain meds for the actual disbudding without causing other problems and I've seen them react and holler even when sedated - that was before I learned to disbud and the vet did a few of mine (and horns grew back :grump:). I do saturate the burn with Solarcaine with Aloe spray immediately after as well. I think it helps, as it cools very fast. It works well on MY burns. :shrug: I try to make it as fast and efficient as I possibly can including shaving the horn area. This not only keeps the smoke down but it keeps the iron from cooling too fast as the thick hair insulates too well. When hair is left on, the iron has to sit there for an extra 2 or 3 seconds to burn through that matt before it gets to the skin. I don't like that, it draws it out longer.
I do give the ND kids 1/4 cc which is a heavier than recommended for their weight. This works very well. You listed pain indicators and I'm glad you did for the sake of people that are new to goats. If you knew me though, you'd know I pay extremely close attention to my goats and I'm very keen to the most subtle changes in my animal's behaviour so I'm really with ya there.
But still trying to learn more and more.....:nerd:

KimM:

I'm very glad you didn't take offense! I'm also very glad to see that you do so much for pain management and minimization.

The post I made about pain was not directed to any individual person (I rarely register who says what, actually), it was just to argue against the statement that they "don't scream and seem fine". I am quite sure that owners who genuinely wish no pain on their animals are perfectly capable and willing to learn the signs. But sometimes we have a tendency to close our eyes to unpleasantries, and that can unfortunately be an unnecessary burden on our animals.

Because my internet is going wonky, or my browser is, and WILL NOT quote the post I WANT it to quote:

KimM said: "Caliann, I certainly agree with you that they feel pain, as I said; their nervous systems are no different than ours really. I'm not trying to be arguementive in any way but I'll just come out and say this to you though. You've pretty much said that if we disbud, we are treating our animals badly, don't care, don't respect them, are abusing them, etc. I take huge issue with that because it is very unfair. I happen to care very deeply how my animals feel."

**********

Kim, would you be so kind as to point out WHERE I even inferred that people who disbud are abusing their animals and that they do not care? Please show me what sentence or paragraph I wrote that said or implied these things? NOT, of course, where some OTHER person implied that I MEANT these things, but where what *I* said something that led you to believe that I believe the people on this board who disbud disrespect their animals and are abusing them?

Because if I did, indeed, give that impression, it is not what I intended. If anything, I am not upset at the INDIVIDUALS that practice this, but at the SYSTEM that encourages it.

Honestly ask yourself: How many people would go through the hassle of disbudding if the show circuit and 4-H clubs did not insist upon it? I know LOTS of people who ONLY disbud because their main market is 4-H and goat show folks, and they honestly cannot afford to lose their biggest market. I am supposed to BLAME them for that? ~blinks~ I am supposed to be accusing them of being careless and abusive because they NEED to be able to sell their kids each season?

Ummm...no.

Then there are others, much like you, that for one reason or another honestly BELIEVE that they are doing the best they can do for their goats. THAT is a different debate ENTIRELY. Unfortunately, when one gets emotion involved, and also, that full faith that one is doing RIGHT and being PROTECTIVE, etc., etc., it is VERY difficult to change minds.

After all, no matter how much one might place facts, and very logical reasoning in front of someone like that, if they accept that XYZ practice is, indeed, harmful, painful, and/or completely unnecessary.

No *human* is going to want to accept that, and can you blame them? The disbudding topic has in the past, and probably will continue in the future, hold the same sort of emotional pull that circumcision does.

Circumcision removes over 30% of sexual sensation from the male penis, causes scarring and some studies have shown that it is directly related to incidence of E.D. later in life. It has been shown to be damaging and unnecessary.

However, try and put such facts in front of parents who, no matter how many decades ago, had THEIR son(s) circumcised, and you will get such a force of resistance that it will leave your head spinning. NO amount of gentle reason or unemotional facts will even lesson the vehemence which you will be faced.

Why? Because if those parents admit the truth of such things, then they have to admit that they did something hurtful to their own child. Even though it was done through ignorance, even if in any OTHER situation, the people in question might be easily swayed by science and fact, when it comes to the idea that they might hurt their child, they will forcefully blind themselves.

It is human nature.

People who care for animals tend to have the same sort of bonds, and react just as vehemently. People who have Boxers will SWEAR that the dog's tail is docked for its own good....that without it being docked, the dog would beat the tail to death through wagging it excessively. They will tell horror stories about cheap, uncaring people that did NOT dock their dog's tails who ended up with dog's that suffered immeasurably, and ended up having to have the tails amputated anyway.

And they will all say that they saw this event (or, most often, SEVERAL events) with their own, two eyes.

None of it is true, of course. Boxers that are not docked to not beat their tails to pieces. Great Danes that do not get their ears cropped do not suffer from massive ear infections. Even the old Australian Shepherd I rescued a few years back has managed to go for 12 years (her whole life), and LOTS of activity, without ripping off her dew claws.

However, if people admitted all that, they would also have to admit that they have been engaging in painful practices for no practical purpose, and NO ONE, not you, not me, not our neighbors, not the people on this board, nor anyone with anything resembling a compassionate heart WANTS to admit something like THAT!

Again, human nature. That is WHY so many inhumane practices have continued throughout the centuries, and WHY so many reasons for continuing such practices have come up....reasons for some things that we ALL laugh about today and say, "They thought WHAT?"

Man (and woman) is not a rational animal; Man (and woman) is a rationalizing animal.

I CERTAINLY do not think that people that disbud thinking they are protecting their animals are uncaring, abusive, and disrespectful of their animals. If anything, I think they care TOO MUCH.

Well, the deed is done. Had the vet come out and re-burn it. I let him talk me into sedation, which I was leery about because of other threads on this forum and other sources. He was concerned about restraining the kid (he did not have a box), and the safety of his partner getting burned. He was also concerned since it was a re-burn it would be more painful and did not want to traumatize the kiddo. He sedated him then injected a local all around the bud, burned it to a nice copper ring, then gave him a CDT and a reversal of the sedative. He was still totally out of it. Gave him another dose of the reversal. No change. Gave a THIRD dose of the reversal (vet seemed concerned but was trying to hide it I believe). Baby finally starts coming to. Now, 3+ hours later he seems normal but for a while was wanting to scratch the bud with his back foot (I think the numbness felt weird to him).

I think it was more traumatizing to me than to him, lol. But, I have to say I will NOT be sedating them again. I was so scared he would not wake up, it was horrible. I took him in the house with me and cuddled on the couch until he was fully awake and trying to squirm away from me, then we went outside and he helped me weed the garden. By that time he seemed fine so I put him back with his cage-mate.

This experience has proven to me that I MUST invest in an iron and disbudding box and learn to do this properly myself, at a very young age. Even if I do not breed each year and only use it occasionally, it is worth it for the peace of mind that it will be done correctly. And since I will be trying to talk DH into 2 more does on craigslist for an insane low price, I might be getting more involved in this than previously thought.

Thanks for all the input on both sides of the fence. All the discussion helps to form an educated opinion and helped me make the decision on what is best for my herd.

Glad to hear all went well!:)
Before you need to do this again, see if you can find someone who will teach you how to disbudd properly. Its so much nicer having someone show you, than guessing for the first time. Most guessers get scurs, thats natural.
I applaud you deciding to do it yourself. It is a lot of peace of mind.:)

I will definitely seek out the experienced breeders in my area. I have read and re-read the tutorial on Fiasco Farms' site, and have watched two done by vets. My does will not be bred for at least a month or so, so I have at least 6 mos. to study and summon the courage, lol. When the time comes I am sure I will be prepared! I have always said that no one will take care of my animals the way that I do, so this should be no different. Just a new skill I need to learn!

I love your determination and it will pay off. Try and go help someone do some disbudding as much as you can, it'll help. Last spring I was where you are. Now I do ND kids for everyone around here and help my original teacher sometimes! And when you think you're ready and go to do your first kid, it's harder than you can imagine. But what made it easier for me to do it was to practice holding the iron and rocking it around on a board to get the feel of consistant pressure of the iron tip against a solid surface with my hand. (did that make any sense??) Then heat that baby up and make some circles in the board. Get a feel for the iron before you put it to your first kid. Truly that'll help you.
You can do it!
Just don't watch too many YouTube how-to's on disbudding, I haven't seen even one that impressed me and most I can't stomach watching as they're very excessive, IMO.
I still think Emily needs to make a tutorial video. ;)

I would just add to make sure that the iron is very hot......it will burn quicker and be less traumatic.
And make sure that you get a GOOD iron. From watching some of the you-tube videos..... all irons are NOT the same.
IMO, spend the extra money and get a very good one!!!!!
I got lucky when I bought my iron.....I did not know that much then, but I have a good one......and my disbuddings are FAR less traumtic than ANY that I have seen on You-Tube!!!

What do y'all recommend as far as irons go? I was thinking of the Rhinehart X50, but then I saw that the X30 is recommended ever more for goats by some people. I do not have cows and probably never will, so having a changeable tip is not an issue. I have nigies and will probably stick with the breed, although I would not rule out a full size dairy breed someday so something that would work for both would be nice.

I think even the expensive ones are pretty reasonable, so price is not as much of an issue as getting a good tool is, for me.

I have the X50 and I like that I can change the tip when it becomes thin, they do wear out but it would probably take you a very long time to wear yours out. The tip on the X30 is fixed so if anything does happen to it, the whole until has to be replaced. Invest in some good, yet soft leather gloves too. I use my X50 on all my NDs as well as standard breeds. I'm sure either model will work for you.

Good point about the tip wearing out, I did not think about that. Much easier/cheaper to replace the tip than the whole unit.

I wouldn't buy anything other than the X50. But I do a lot of kids for myself and a lot of kids for others. I like it because it gets hot and stays hot. For someone just doing a few, the X30 may work just as well.
Be aware that the X50(don't know about the X30, its been years since I've seen one), has a toggle switch beneath the tip. One side is for soldering("S"), one side is for disbudding("D"). Make sure its switched to the "D" side when you disbudd.

OK, so, it can be used on electronics and goat heads? Odd....