I am guessing this is futile, as you stated you do not care about other countries. But Langedrag farm, that have a large dairy operation and sell cheese, are dedicated to the preservation of the Norwegian Dairy Goat AND their horns. They specificially avoid the population of polled saanen-mixes that we have.
They are open to the public, and kids are allowed to interact with the goats and milk them.

http://ekrehagen.no/bilder/ls_host_2007_fjos.jpg
http://ekrehagen.no/bilder/ls_host_2007_geiter.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_bywqA3JJ7E...0/DSC_6198.JPG
http://camilla3.weblogg.no/images/ca...1137073382.jpg


They also have yak, highland cattle and Telemark cattle - all horned.

www.ekeby.no have over 200 horned boers for meat production.

Ekeberg farm have horned dairy goats.
http://www.dabesin.com/wp-content/up...-1816-0381.jpg
http://www.rideskole.no/Images/Web/Geiter%20m.png

The UNIVERSITY of environment- and biosciences have three herds of dairy goats.
http://www.umb.no/img_cache/full/2502.jpg


I'm tired of looking now.. :soap:

My doeling just got herself stuck in the fence and when I walked over to help her she freaked out and pulled her horn right off!!! I wish I had her disbudded.

My buckling is using his horns to play with my wether (disbudded) and I am worried he will hurt him. I wish I had him disbudded, too.

I agree with the poster who said have the whole herd with horns if you choose not to disbud. I may have to put them in another pen if they continue to use horns on the disbudded goats.

Any thoughts/experience with regard to having a horse in the pasture with goats with horns????

Many people around here have goats as companions for horses, and the goats usually have horns. Never heard of any problem with this. Of course it is wise to use a goat that is *smart* and does not think it needs to take on a horse - the goat would probably lose...
But that's the same with anything. Obnoxious goats aren't nice.

He's a pretty sweet little buckling and doesn't try to take on the horse!!!;)

Then I'm sure it will be just fine! :) If he's raised with it, it probably will be fine anyway!

Geiss,
Thak you for sharing the pics.......cold you tell me what country that is in???

I think of "large dairy" as 200-700 (or more goats). Those pics do not look like what i would consider a "large goat dairy."

What breeds of goats are those? Those horns look more like what we see on meat goats around here. Those horns are no where near the size that I would have on my Alpines if I were to let them grow. I have seen scurs on Alpine bucks that are MUCH bigger than those horns.

Thank you,
Bill

Bill:

These are images of goats from Norwegian dairy farms that I found online. Not many have any interest in having homepages. No one picture includes the whole herd of course.

The goats are mostly Norwegian Dairy with some saanen here and there. And almost all of them are does.

I don't think the numbers game is really a valid argument, neither is the size of horns. These are working dairy herds of various size with horns. The only thing lacking in your original question (I suppose) is the country they reside in. As you must have understood by my previous postings, Norway has strict rules on animal welfare and would not allow practices that lead to regular maimings and death among animals.

Edited to add:
I'm sorry, but I have to ask. Are you unaware of the size difference in does and bucks' horns? If you look more closely you will see a couple of bucks (that are standing in with children, I might add) with horns I wouldn't exactly call tiny....

I think that the "numbers" is a VERY VALID argument. There is a HUGE difference is managing 20-30 goats than there is in managing 300 goats!!!

Oh yes, I am very aware of the differences in the size of horns on does vs. bucks.

I have had goats "off and on" for almost 30 years.

I had not noticed the buck until you mentioned it. His horns are larger, but, IMO, they do not compare with the horns that I had on a yearling Alpine buck who did not get disbudded......and I sent him to the auction.

As I said, the horns on those does look more like the horns we see on meat goats around here. They are nothing like the horns my Alpine does would have if I allowd them to grow,

It does not look like we are comparing "apples to apples."

Yes, I have seen Alpine does with a full set of horns ......and I have seen the "maiiming" that was inflicted on herd-mates.

When I read that people who say, "'X' has horns on their goats and they have never had a porblem...." It reminds me of the patients that I took care of in the hospital who had been 'gored' by bulls. They ALL had one thing in common in their stories....."We have been doing it this way for years, and never had a problem before....."

It also reminds me of an incident at the farm where I buy hay. It is a dairy farm where they milk 150-200 cows. They have a couple part-time empoyees. One of them is a "retired" dairy farmer. One of the bulls attacked him one day. The bull knocked him down, and continued to try to gore him. Fortunately, the bull did not have horns. No one else was present when the attack started. The gentleman rolled towards the fence ....as the bull continued to try to gore him. The gentleman survived the attack, but spent over a week in the hospital with several broken ribs, and other internal injuries. The gentleman and the owner of the farm both believed that if the bull had horns, the injuries would have been much more severe, and may have resulted in his death.

Does ANYONE believe that the injuries would not have been more severe if the bull would have had horns?!?!

Would it have been "more humane" to that gentleman if the bull would have had horns?

I have seen the maiming fist-hand that horned dairy goats can inflict on each other. I believe it is more more humane for my animals to disbud, then to risk a maiming.

But I am not telling other people what they should do with their animals....if someone else wants to have horns on their animals, I could care less.

But I do not believe for one second that is is "more humane" to leave horns on a goat!!

I would like to understand the comparison that is being made between meat goat and dairy goat horns.

I can find plenty of site and pictures of meat goats (Boers/Fainters/Pygmies and such) and we had two pygmy bucks a few years ago with horns so I know what those look like. However, I have never had a dairy goat with horns and outside of a few pics in other countries of goats of unknown breeding (except for those that Geiss posted) I can find no pics of dairy goats with horns.

Does any one have a pic of an Alpine doe with a full set of horns? Or LaMancha,Toggenburg,Saanen,ND?

I would just like to compare the differences for my own learning. Thanks in advance to any who have pics.

I don't know the numbers for each of these farms, but I can assure you that we are not talking 20-30 goats. One of these I have been to myself (the first one) and their herd is pretty big (several hundred animals, yes - I didn't count them though). They spend most of the year in pasture old-style and are driven down to be milked each day by horses.

There are several bucks in those photos, and most of them are quite young, because bucks aren't kept around forever, they are switched out to keep inbreeding low.
Anyway, there's no point in arguing with you on this - but if it's the SIZE of the horns that is the issue, why on earth breed goats with monstrous horns? How come we in Europe have dairy goats with "small horns" (according to you)? And another question, how can you know so much about your goats horn sizes if you routinely disbud them?

Accidents happen. If you work with knives, at some point you'll cut yourself. I think it's just not enough justification to remove an animals body parts because a person could get hurt in the course of the years. I guess we'd start removing hooves too, if we could - to avoid stomping?

Every year, several people are killed by cattle in Norway (bear in mind the population is under five million, and the people in contact with cattle is minute). I've not heard any that were gored to death, they were all pinned and/or stomped. They are big, powerful animals with their own ideas, and dangerous to work with. Horns or not.

Since when did animal welfare have anything to do with people? :huh: We are talking about what is humane for the animals, not for us. We choose to keep these animals, they have no choice in the matter.

Then that is your belief and you are entitled to it.

That is entirely in the eyes of the beholder, and very much a matter of faith/belief. Until we can see some comparative study from all-horn and all-dehorned herds over the course of years, we can't really conclude definately either way.

But one thing is proved beyond a doubt, and that's the worst part of it all for me. Banding horns, banding testicles and disbudding IS painful, and can remain painful for quite some time after the procedure.
WHY do so many keep on doing these things without proper pain management?!? I see people saying it breaks their hearts to do it, but I haven't seen anyone mention doing more to reduce pain than giving banamine before the procedure. Honestly, try taking some ibuprofen and then put the iron to your skin, see how much it helps.

Saanens are most often naturally polled (which is why they were incorporated to such a degree here in Norway).

Alpine
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ictures153.jpg
Alpine
http://www.backyardherds.com/forum/u...ure_156982.jpg
French Alpine
http://rlv.zcache.com/french_alpine_...65trdg_400.jpg
Slovenian Alpine
http://www.istrianet.org/istria/faun...oistria350.jpg

LaMancha
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...el011809-1.jpg
http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n...s/S6300313.jpg
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z...e/IMG_0312.jpg

Toggenburg
http://www.infonet-biovision.org/res...7.300x200.jpeg
http://www.infonet-biovision.org/res...8.300x200.jpeg

Saanen
http://www.infonet-biovision.org/res...9.300x200.jpeg
http://img.freebase.com/api/trans/im...t&maxwidth=510

ND
http://www.sunnydazefarm.com/images/P6290852.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_BuO62hqVfk...rebel+2290.JPG[

Dutch Landrace
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7xGESFZ0NC...LD0/s400/3.jpg

TAMU keeps several herds of goats, both meat and dairy. I remember one herd that had tinted windows in their sides...it was weird, but a surgery had been done on them and WINDOWS installed so their inner workings could be observed. The windows were tinted heavily so their innards wouldn't get sunburned.

I have no idea what the windows were made of, but the goats didn't seem unhappy or bothered by them. In fact, they pretty much ignored them.

LSU has herds of dairy and meat goats, as does CSU and U of C. Pretty much any University that also has a veterinary school has herds of goats. What's your point?

Here is a Nubian buck with horns:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n_Goat_001.jpg

Here is a Nubian doe with horns:

http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/logan/jerry.jpg

Here is a male, horned alpine (don't know if he is a buck or a wether):

http://www.morningstarranch.org/newgoat.jpg

Wow! Gotta admit those horns are impressive! Although any target would have to be several feet away for him to hit them with those corkscrew things!

Here is a Saanen doe with horns:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...aanenziege.jpg

A Toggenburg with a nice, healthy set of horns:

http://www.freewebs.com/wgstudanimals/lollee.jpg

And a Pygmy with a nice set of horns:

http://www.cumbrian-goat-experience....Pygmy-Goat.gif

Alpines seem to be the "Longhorns" of the goat world, as NONE of the other breeds i have found, other than the wild Mountain Goat, have anywhere NEAR such an impressive set of head-wear.

I can most certainly see Alpines with full horn sets being a problem in the dairy parlor, in the same way that I wouldn't put Longhorn Cattle in a dairy parlor either...the horns would stretch over two milking stanchions in each direction.

However, that is the EXCEPTION, not the rule. The Nubians, the Saanens, the Pygmies, the Toggenburgs, etc., whose images I sifted through didn't have any more impressive headwear than any of the Boers and Cashmeres I have seen.

Herd of Cashmere goats:

http://swisscashmere.org/sitebuilder...s_in_upshi.JPG

Impressively horned Cashmere buck:

http://www.greenfencefarm.com/images/timandfriends.jpg

Yeah, THAT boy would be a problem in the dairy parlor also.

Here is a herd of Boer does:

http://www.umassmeatgoat.com/imagesn...oesrunning.jpg

Looks to me like their horns are about the same as a Nubian.

~shrugs~ I live in Texas, which is THE U.S. capital for Cashmere and meat goats, with the largest commercial herds of both. (Everything is bigger in Texas, right?)

However, Bill, you mentioned it being a numbers game and NUMBERS were important, right? It's the NUMBERS of goats and whether or not they have horns, right?

In all of the U.S. in 1996, 640 tons of goat cheese was produced. In France, a country not even as large as Texas, 35,000 tons of goat cheese was produced.... that is more in tonnage of JUST cheese than every licensed goat dairy in the U.S. handled in JUST MILK the same year.

Yeah, who has more goats?

According to the USDA NASS statistics of 2008, there are 310,000 commercial dairy goats in the ENTIRE United States.

Just one COUNTY (Fuping County, to be exact) in China outnumbers our entire nation in dairy goats.

China does not disbud.

Germany has more dairy goats than we do. Sweden has more dairy goats than we do. Every European nation, even though many of them are not even as large as, say, Kansas, has more dairy goats than we do.

THEY have the NUMBERS...and except for the U.K., they do not disbud as a practice.

So I guess it's a good thing. Yeah, we HABITUALLY torture our goats here by castrating and disbudding WITHOUT even using anesthesia, but at least we don't do that to the number of goats one might find in, say, Zimbabwe.

Of course, in our arrogance, we OBVIOUSLY know what's better for our goats than those ignorant, third world, non-industrialized Swiss, right? Even though they have three times the dairy goats we do even though they are less than 1/60th the size? *rolls her eyes and snorts*

What I wanna know is:

What is an Alpine buck doing getting his horns caught in a stanchion anyway? Is someone milking him?

That there is a herd of nubian/boer mixs.... Boar horns are kinda wide and lay back directly next to their head. OR differently, they don't stick up, they stick back and to the sides.

They should look like this.

http://www.abfboergoats.com/images/meat.jpg


Link to image page.... www.abfboergoats.com

Oh my!Yes that Alpine buck does have horns that would be a bit difficult to manage. Based on the dehorning/disbudding practices in other countries its obviously not impossible to manage, but I can see it would be very difficult. Although I have to admit that there is no way that particular buck could get his head through the squares in a cattle panel to get stuck,lol.

The others all have horns that don't seem to differ much. In fact the cashemre horns look more difficult to manage than the dairy horns with the exception of the Alpine.

How interesting. I had no idea that Alpine horns could grow to such magnificent lengths.

I think some of the Middle Eastern countries breed FOR such impressive horns. I also came across a couple of pictures of other breeds with some impressive horns.

Here is a Jamnapari goat:

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thu...feral_goat.jpg

I don't think he is getting stuck in a fence any day soon either.

Here is my Pygmy Gretta...She came with horns. I wanted one without horns but her personality outweighed the horn issue. Now she is a guard goat. :)

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0...D550/ry%3D400/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0...D550/ry%3D400/

LOL, Minelson, that is too funny :hysterical:

A little thread drift....
Geiss:
Is it my imagination??? The goats in your pictures seem to be quite a bit smaller than the Alpnes here in the US.

This is one of my does that I purchased recently. They weighed her before I picked her up and she weighed 195#. I have taken her to a couple shows and several other does in her class were larger than her, so she is not unusually large.

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...hio/phoebi.png

That goat seriously looks ticked off, however, she honestly looks too lethargic to attack anything except more food.:rotfl:

Have you ever witnessed an effective disbudding of a week-old baby goat??

Do any of those universities have horns on their dairy goats???

Re: numbers.........I apologize if I did not make myself clear. I was referring to the size of a herd, not the total number of goats in a country.

I forgot......I spent my career in the medical field.....and any study of any kind needed a review by an ethics committee. I believe that began about 20 years ago. If there are other "standards" for other institutions, then thank you for providing that information.

As I have said...I think several times..... have seen first-hand the maiming that can occur in a herd of Alpines that have their horns. For me, that is suffering by an animal that could have been prevented.
If you would rather have that animal suffer like that, then we simply have different values. :shrug:

Aren't you getting dizzy with all the "eye-rolling?"

Bill........getting concerned for CaliannG........and wondering why people use the term "humane" to create conditions that can result in more pain for the animals? I have seen those results......if someone has not, then I have no control over that,....:shrug:

Oh yeah?? Ask the guy with the shredded neck tie how lethargic she is! :hysterical:

Animals don't feel pain the same way humans do. Within 3 minutes of having that hot iron on their heads for 40-60 seconds, they're walking/running and drinking milk like nothing happened. No 'head-rolling', twitching, eye-rolling, or droopiness (although they are rather subdued). Compare that to burning a hole on a 3-year-old human's head for 40-60 seconds. The 3-yr-old would probably die.

Now holding a 1000° iron on a kids head for ANY longer than it needs to get the job done is out and out torture. 40-60 seconds?? :eek: Are you serious?? The very longest I go is 7 seconds. And my vet warned me not to go over 5 seconds.
I also have to ask, how do you know they don't feel pain the same way? Their nervous systems are no different than ours, we're all mammals you know.

I usually count when I do it......and about 7 seconds is my maximum time.
Sometimes I need to "touch up' a spot or 2.

Within a few seconds they are bouncing aound as if nothing ever happened.

I have no explanation for it, but if I were to burn my arm like that....it would be a totally different story.

When I worked at the hospital, neurosurgeons told me that either all of the human skull, or parts of the skull have no nerve endings. I don't know if that is true of goats or not.

I usually count when I do it......and about 7 seconds is my maximum time.
Sometimes I need to "touch up' a spot or 2.

Within a few seconds they are bouncing aound as if nothing ever happened.

I have no explanation for it, but if I were to burn my arm like that....it would be a totally different story.

When I worked in the medical field, neurosurgeons told me that either all of the human skull, or parts of the skull have no nerve endings.....and thus the the "bone" of the skull has no pain sensation. I don't know if that is true of goats or not.

I guess it can be likened to spaying and neutering. Even with anesthesia, spaying and neutering is painful. In dogs, heats and such can be mananged and some people never have any trouble. But then there are those who despite their best efforts still end up with a surprise litter or had to watch a dog die of testicular or mammary gland cancer or watched a female die of pyometra. In fact, baby goats act far,far better in the minutes after disbudding than a dog does when it wakes up after spaying. Yet everyone will agree its is better for the dog to be spayed rather than left intact.

Everyone does things differently and sees things differently, from neighbors down the street to neighbors across the world. One isn't nessecarily better than another in this case I don't think. Each owner has to decide what is best for them,their family and their goats.

sorry,double post

oh boy...I won't tell her you said that. Must be the camera angle..this is not a lethargic goat. She is quite active and she fears NOTHING.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8...D550/ry%3D400/

I'm glad my doe has her horns. If a predator ever got in her pen, she'd at least have a fighting chance.

The cows and dog back down to her. (She likes to lord it over them.) She knows better than to use those horns on me, so we get along fine.

We all know that horns make no difference for defence.... :rolleyes:


Yet, folks take them off for safety. :hrm:

Absolutey, I do not expect my goats to have to protect themselves from predators!!!

And I have seen the mutilatoin that those horns can inflict on other goats.

IMO, I have a responsiblity to provide the safest environment possible for my animals.

Bill.......attends seminars, including dealing with coyotes, and has never lost a goat to coyotes.......in spite of a coyote population in this area........is more concerned about stray dogs.......and has neighbors who have said that they will shoot any stray dog that they see on my property!!!.....if I don't shoot them first!!!

7 seconds? Maybe it was actually 10 seconds... And 60 seconds was an extreme. But we had one Saanen kid we'd gotten from someone. She'd had someone hold the goat while she burned it's head. I don't know what happened, but the scurs were growing all over the place and it took 80 seconds or more to burn that darn thing back right.

Also, to answer the bolded area, I don't, but the fact that they act fine afterward speaks for itself... As opposed to burning a human. I freak out if I touch the skillet for .5 seconds; I can't imagine leaving it for longer!:shocked:

I'm sure it probably seemed like a lot longer that it was. The first time I witnessed a disbudding, it seemed like the guy would never take the iron off. I didn't know if I was going to pass out or puke. It was a botched job to boot so I was determined to learn to do it right and as efficient as possible the FIRST time. So in comes that "experience" thing and it greatly benefits all involved - especially the goats.
I think the pain perception thing is because for one, as Bill explained, the lack of abundant nerves in the cranium. And two, they don't express some pain the same way we do. (why I always give Banamine beforehand) I know when I've banged my head on something and cut it, it really hurt but didn't hurt for very long at all unless I touched it. Plus people have LOTS of nerves in their soft tissues, especially hands and fingers. Maybe we could invite some of those people that brand theirselves into the discussion. :teehee: Or not....

I haven't taken their weights, so I can't answer that. All I can say is they're bred for maximum milk production.

I've seen plenty videos of correct and no-so-correct disbudding, yes.

We're talking data collection here. There would be no ethics issue.

I'm starting to wonder if Alpines are unusually aggressive?

THAT is a myth long since debunked! They feel pain exactly the way we do. How much of it, however, can be difficult to know. Goats are prey animals, prey animals usually have less behavioural displays of pain than humans - but the stress and pain of the animal can still be observed in their heart rate, blood pressure and cortisol levels.

Actually, not everyone will agree on that either. Norway has a great number of intact animals and not a single stray (we do get runaways of course). It is considered by many an unnecessary procedure due to laziness on the owners part.

I do understand the regular neutering in the US because you have such vast issues with too many animals - and I also support neutering of cats, even here (that is somewhat of an issue). I've neutered all my cats, but none of my dogs, because I can control where the dogs go (fence) - I don't want to keep my cats indoors, that would be cruel.

I digress.. When we neuter, we use anaesthesia, and around here they are given pain killers and inflammation reducers for up to a week afterwards, to minimize their pain and discomfort. Like I said, goats are prey animals and will act accordingly (when you can tell a goat is sick, it's REALLY sick!), they too deserve the best pain management we can give them when we choose to bring them into this life and perform painful procedures on them. I can not for the life of me understand why anyone would think they deserve less.
I, for one, would rather make sure I do what I can rather than assume they're fine with it. Wouldn't you want the same courtesy?

Enter me.. :hysterical:
I have a branding in my neck that took about an hour to do. Yes, it hurt like all get-out, and then it hurt some more. Any other questions?

Really? On purpose?? :shocked: PICS! PICS!

Okelydokely (even if it's very OT)... This was years ago, I've stopped self-mutilating now. :bash:

As you can see, the skin is seriously angry at the abuse...
http://home.no/bloodclot/Brand1.JPG
http://home.no/bloodclot/Brand2.JPG
http://home.no/bloodclot/Brand3.JPG

owie owie owie OWIE!!!!!