Minerva won't stand for long.
 

So now the pushing and the crying and the blood has stopped. Has stopped since about 10 this morning. Now she won't stand up. If I can get her standing she'll stand for about 10 seconds and then sit down again. Her back legs are really wobbly and I'm sure the fact that she hasn't eaten since Wednesday AM isn't helping.

Any advice?

Is the person you got her from anywhere near? Or the owner of the buck she's bred to? Anybody who knows goats and breeding/kidding issues?

In my experience, a goat who won't eat is in trouble.

She never passed anything (placenta, kids, etc)? Goats really aren't designed to push for more than a few hours. I'm afraid you've got dead kids in there and no good will come of not having them out.

I can't believe I'm saying this....but....if you can't find a vet....it might be best to put her down. :( I'm not one to EVER suggest that since I don't think I could do it myself, but things don't look good.

Have you done any internal exam? If there's a kid in the canal, it might be easy enough to get it out...not sure with her not pushing though. Someone mentioned that the placenta might be the part coming out first - not sure what you can do then, but at least you can tell if that's the case by exam.

Does she have any interest in water? You could give her electrolytes or drench her. Is her rumen active at all at this point? (listen for the tell tale sound about every 1.5 minutes).

She is taking warm water with molasses in it.

I have the buck she's bred to.

I got her off of craigslist (I know, my bad, but she's been wonderful up to now!). The owner is about an hour and a half from here.



I did find a doctor who usually takes are of cattle. He's willing to try to see her. He's usually closed on Friday afternoons, but she qualifies as an emergency. Unfortunately he's working on his roof right now. I can take her once he comes down. Gotta love country vets!

I hope he realizes his roof can wait and that Minerva is an emergency. :huh:

did you try and go in as i recommended in the other post?

That vet is going to finish up his roof? What a quack.

Did you go in to see if a kid is hung up?
That's all a Vet can do

The doe should have been checked a long time ago. You should have lined up a vet and/or knowledgeable breeder to help you long before this ever happened.
You need to either assist the poor doe and deliver her kids, or put her down.

Exactly Bearfoot...This goat should have been assisted at first sign of malpresentation.
How terribly sad that you let her suffer so very long without intervention.

Update us as soon as the vet sees her! I hope he can at least save Minerva.

I love how every time a newby screws up you all make them feel so supported during an already hard situation. People won't come here for help if you all chastise/critisize (sp?) them every time they look for help. People don't need kicked while they are down.

Tonya- We do what we know at the time. I'm sorry no one is near enough to help hands on. I understand not being able to go in and check. Inexperiance is hard.

Thanks for expressing this for me Freedom Mom. I only lurk here. We'll be getting OUR first goat this August (a doe who is - an FF (I believe this is the term you all use)right now due in May. Thankfully one of us will have gone around that curve, i.e the doe), but we could easilly be in her shoes next Spring..

I feel for Tonya. Seems to me Tonya did suspect something awry a few days ago, but without many resources to her disposal on top of being a newbie, how do you know? She came here first, at least.

I'm totally addicted to this saga though. My prayers for all of you during this crisis.

I'm with you on this one. some pretty harsh statements here to a new person. being new myself, makes me skittish to want to get help here. I hope you all reread your posts and see where we are coming from.:nono:

Good luck with Minerva, I hope all goes well. My heart goes out to you.

Yes I agree. A newby may well be afraid to ask questions if she felt panicy and a goat that had a simple to fix problem, could die. I will probably pm someone over on dairygoatinfo if Milkyway does anything to spook me. Of course she is my first goat, with an unknown due date, who could deliver in the middle of the night which will be 27 degrees here. Gee I wish there was somewhere a lady could go for help......

I could have waited to get a goat until I became a vet. Or sold my house and moved somewhere where goat vets were common. Where was that again?

true.. being new & inexperienced is hard and the thought can be scary!!!.. BUT.. a pelvic check isn't hard. ANYONE (unless you have GIANT hands :eek:) can do it. My very first kidding.. I knew NADA.. had never even seen a kid born. My doe had problems. I was alone, no vet, no way to get her into the truck (too heavy for me to lift alone.. even if I could have found a vet on a sunday afternoon)... I promise you I was scared.. BUT.. that girl & those babies needed me. I'm the one who bred her.. I was the one responsible. I steadied my nerves , I cut my nails, I scrubbed up (more then I needed to LOL) I tied her up well, so I could work alone, I lubed up ....said a little prayer and in I went. Even having NEVER seen it done.. it wasn't hard. Once inside I found a head, and a jumble of legs.. closed my eyes & took my time.. got them untangled and helped pull them out. Result? one healthy, happy mom.. 2 healthy happy babies & one rather shaken up/but proud of herself fat red-head... Had I just decided to take a wait & see.. I would have had two dead kids, a dead doe and a guilt I would have carried forever... sometimes you just have to make up your mind that no one is coming to save you.. take deep breath and do what you have to do... I'm sorry that the OP is going thru this.. I'm sorry that it has gone on this long. I'm very fearful of the outcome... for those of you afraid you are going to do something wrong or hurt your doe.. in a situation like this.. doing nothing is the worst thing you can do... it's easy to talk a person thru *going in* (the year after I saved my first doe/kids.. I helped a friend save her doe & triplets..I did it via cell phone while shopping in wal-mart.. yes people around me in line, found our call a bit *weird* LOL)

susie, mo ozarks

Samantha, I know exactly what you mean. My first goat was pregnant when I got her. Had no idea of a due date, just went by my own personal experience and reading. I'm very lucky that we had no problems with her kidding except she refused to nurse the baby. I ended up bottling her, now she is a happy robust little girl.

the problem IMO, is that you don't want to go in too soon. Then can't you make matters worse as well? I'm glad you had a good outcome.

Think of the extra guilt from people chopping you up like cube steak...
And these other comments aren't being helpful like you clearly were with a phone call!

May I PM you if I need help?

I have three lamb nipples and sodda bottles ready! Even though I really don't want to bottle raise babies.

I hear ya there! I now have 2 bottle babies, both are very sweet. they act like family pets now, whenever I come out they came running to me. But the bottling is a pain. I'm hoping my pregnant doe, whom I don't know her due date either, feeds her kids herself.
I sure hope Minerva and Tonya are alright, I feel for them

Of course you can.. pm me & I'll give you my phone #.. feel free to call if you think you have an problem (or if you just need someone to hold your hand & share the big moment with you. I don't work off the farm, so I'm up for a phone call ...even in the middle of the night LOL.
(if it's during our own kidding season.. I'm probably sleeping in the recliner with a timer set to go off every half hour, so I rouse up and watch *goat tv* via the barn cams.
susie, mo ozarks

a clean finger or two just deep enough to check if the cervix is dilating correctly won't hurt (and can tell you A LOT about what's going on in there)

susie, mo ozarks

Going in when you've never done it before is better than doing nothing. It's also not as scary as it seems. Either go in and yank kids, dead or alive, or put the doe down. The doe is suffering and if those kids have been dead long, they're likely started to rot. If you get the kids out, I'd do a round of antibiotics with her.

Fiasco farms has excellent info on bad presentations and how to fix them. The best advice is to figure out what you're feeling, sort stuff out, and pull. Take your time.

Either way, something needs done soon. Hope to hear a good ending to this one.

Photos of kidding positions possible:

http://fiascofarm.com/galleries/Goat...ons/index.html

Any news?

UPDATE.

Minerva had a vet assisted birth of a large, dead doeling. Unfortunately I waited too long and part of her uterus ripped. We're praying now that Minerva makes it. The next 24-48 hours will be critical.

The vet was really nice. (It was his wife who said he was on the roof...and he was on the roof at the school helping them-not easy to track down.) His assistants were his two sons, ages about 16 and 10. The 10 year old even reached in and told his Dad what he was feeling. (Dad's hands were too big.) I got to help with the whole process. In fact, I think I need to take a shower now.

THANK YOU for the prayers. KEEP THEM COMING! She's now trying to rest comfortably in my sun room. She'll be there for a week or so. Right now she's slurping electrolytes and water and she took a bite or two of alfalfa pellets. I'm supposed to get baby chicks on Wed. I guess they'll be in the kitchen.

Gotta love farm life.

Oh and for the record, I did try to go in, but I wear gloves that are a mens XL and they are tight. I have huge hands. I couldn't feel anything and the vet said I wouldn't have as HE couldn't go in deep enough. He had to dilate her a bit and then she screamed as he did repositioned the baby. The head was flopped back and one front leg was trying to come out. She never would have been able to birth it.

Thank you for your support! I'll keep you posted on Miss Minerva.

Just need to stand up for my favorite forum and all my goatie friends...I think this is a pretty broad statement Freedomfrom. The only comment that may have been critical was made by someone who only has 8 posts. I have never felt chastised here. There is so much experience here and support that I feel it would be foolish not to come here with any problems or concerns. If you need things sugar coated all the time you may find yourself disappointed.

Tonya...I am so sorry you are going through this. The vet who is on the roof sounds typical to me since so many large animal vets don't take goats seriously. :( I see that someone sent you a pm and I'm sure you got more. Hopefully you are getting the help you need. All I can do is pray and send you hugs. Please keep us posted

Whew! I'm glad you got help. I'm sorry you lost the doeling and Minerva got hurt :( Thanks for the updates...it helps everyone to learn from different peoples experiences. Minerva will be n my prayers for a speedy recovery. She has a good goat mama and if anyone can pull her through this you can :)

Tonya...keeping my fingers crossed and prayers said that Minerva pulls through for you! We do need to see some pics her so that we know who we are rooting for :)

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c2...nervadec09.jpg

This is Miss Minerva during sunnier times.

Thank goodness the vet and his kids were there to help! So sorry about the doeling. I do hope Minerva pulls through from this. I don't know anything about the aftercare for something like this but I hope the vet gave you some good advice (antibiotics, etc).

Did the vet have any idea about the "red bubble" that you thought might be a prolapse? I've never heard of anything like that.

Oh Tonya my prayers and thoughts and hugs are with you and Minerva. Minerva will need antibiotics given SQ daily for at least a week to 10 days. keep offering her warm to almost hot water with molasses and or karo syrup mixed in. I would also give her a SQ shot of iron Dextran depending on her size and weight at least 2 to 3 cc every other day for a total of 3 shots. Fortified vitamin B Complex will also help her feel better. The Fortified Vit B can be given daily until she's back to eating well. Also give her probios daily for a several days. I hope she recovers and does well. Again my prayers and thoughts are with you both. Sandy

Why sugar coat. After a short time of pushing she should have intervened or sought help.
Animal husbandry is a responsibility.
This is a life in your hands. She had advice and did not take it.
I don't think people learn from comforting when they have erred.
This is over the top political correctness and she caused the death of the animals by not accepting the responsibility of animal ownership. The info on intervention is everywhere if she can post here she can find out how to help.
Some of you need to stop criticizing people who have ethics and coddling people who abuse animals. A goat with a ripped uterus is a dead goat.

The vet gave her antibiotics and the Dex shot. He told me what to feed her and he'll stop by after Church on Sunday to give her another antibiotic shot and then he'll leave them for me to give her.

I like this guy. He gave blood this afternoon and worked on the school roof and then took in a new customer and her very sick goat....all on his afternoon off. Oh, and he speaks a little German, too!

Duly noted. I'm sorry I'm not as perfect as you.

Hurray! Glad that's behind you!

Interesting thread. Lots of personalities shining through.

Minerva is a pretty little goat.

It has nothing to do with perfection.
It has to do with the responsibility of assuming animal ownership.
It should be no less important than the humans in your care.

Here is hoping that the part of her uterus that tore was only part of the cervix- and she may live to kid again. It is hard when you are new to have a beloved doe have a problem- I lost my first beloved doe when she had quints in her and delivered 3 weeks early, then she gave up too.

some thing you may want to do is get some bio-mycin at the feed store- I always give a bolus of it deep into the vagina (no needle of course) when we put hands in in addition to injected antibiotics for an insurance policy of sorts.

We all have our initiations into goat keeping and this is one of the hard ones.

Sorry I don't post here much but I have raised goats for over 4 years and been around livestock all my life. Your 2nd to last sentence bugs me. I don't think she "abused" any animals. She was not aware that there was a problem. Unfortunatly these things happen. It was not intentional "abuse" as you put it, on the part of the goats owner and I think the word abuse was a poor choice of words for your response. I'm sure the goat's owner already feels horrible about what happened and will use this unfrounate set of events as a learning experience should this sort of thing happen again. Hopefully other's reading this thread will also use her misfortune to know what to do should they find themselves in a similar situation.