As in facing the back of the goat. If you look at the video again its the side she lays down on.

I wish I could help. Poor baby, is definitely hurting.

Definitely an injury. In the hip/pelvic area.

Last season, I had a huge buckling out of my best doe get hit in the area between the hip and the stifle joint. He hopped around for a few days until I was finally able to catch him and when I did, he had a break in the leg, just above the stifle joint. Right in a place where it could not be splinted. Since the swelling kept the bones on place, I let him heal on his own and as he did, the area developed a huge hematoma/abscess that drained with a lot of liquid pus and formed a big bone callus where the break was.. He also curved his spine when walking.

Of course, he was the one I was planning on keeping.

Sorry, but that is exactly like how my goats were walking and laying down. They were having to think about each step so that they did not fall flat on their face. Ivomec is cheap, you have not wormed in a while, do it, IM.
Mine were in pain too from MW, the larva was eating its way through the bone marrow. Vets did not want to let me dose them with Banamine daily. That's why I put them down and did a necropsy, best $35 I ever spent. Showed 8 vets that my thoughts were correct with our rainy weather last summer. First one went slow, 6 weeks of good days and bad. MW was in her lower spine. She stood for the vets to take blood and run tests, even walked across the lab to check things out. Trust me it was a hard thing to see and do, but she was in pain and I knew I had done everything for her. The Ivomec had done its job, but I did not do it soon enough because I had her on a worming schedule (SQ) and everyone told me it couldn't be MW. The damage was done, vets let me observe and the worm had made swiss cheese of my girl. I hope to never see damage like that again. Second went quick within a week they were stumbling and unable to stand, drooling. No chance for Ivomec to work. MW was in the brain on Necropsy. Two thousand dollar animals lost to MW, now Bambi gets chased away by three dogs 24/7.

If she just had an injury, she would not lay down like that. She would be favoring the injury. You would know just by looking at her where the injury was.

Ummm, yes she would lay down like that- seen it like this several times- depends on where the bruising is.

I doubt one would see Menengial worm in the winter like we have had. There are no snails right now.

This is an injury. More likely 'not' dislocated, but badly bruised. Bone bruises hurt pretty powerful. You will likely see improvement in a week or so. Do 'range of motion' exercises. And find out who the 'bully' doe is.

Banamine for 4 days, unless the vet says more. It can harm kidneys. Absorbine liniment and Arnica gel are also good for topical use.

Most of all- DO NOT PUT THIS DOE DOWN! Give her time.

Wow - lots of different ideas here!

My neighbor has Banamine and is willing to sell me 6 ccs (2 per day for 3 days is my plan). She also has a equine chiro I can contact. I'll call the vet, but I think he only does farm trips on Thursdays.

I'm going out to check on her now and will report back.

Thanks, all!

The 'bully' doe is probably that feisty donkey

Does it look like she's thinking of every step in this new video?

I don't have any advice for you, just checking in to see how she's doing & to let you know I'm keeping my fingers crossed for both of you! Poor thing I hope she can come out fo this.

I would do like Minelson said & keep her in a confined area to keep from injuring anymore & Banamine.

not really any changes either way today.

I have a call in to the vet - have given Banamine

She appears to be walking with her rear left foot / hoof pointed outwards - had not noticed that before.

One strange thing - when I was rubbing my hand along her back she peed. This happened twice. Could this be an organ issue? Kidneys?

OK> she looks much better in this video- the banamine has helped and she is definitely on the mend. She looks like she has a slight 'gimp' in the right rear, but not like it was.

In the first video, she tucked the injured foot up under her so she could use her good rear foot to get up on. Hence the tender positioning of her hurt foot.

Give her a couple more days and she'll be almost back to normal......

Actually that video was shot just before the one of her sitting down. Still - I like your viewpoint! Love it actually.

You beg, threaten, cry, whatever it takes to get your vet to either sell you a dose or to give you a script. Took me SEVERAL tries but I now have "1" dose.:hammer:
Sandra

Wow, big difference there!

What did you treat her with?
HF

Same day, shot just before the video of her sitting down. Been treating with Banamine. No vet (called 2) has returned my call yet

Good job on the treatment. It sounds like it's an injury. Have you noticed her back straightening with the Banamine?
HF

Thank you. She really could use just one more dose, but I don't think I'm going to be able to get my hands on it.

This is day 4 - I would think if nothing has gotten worse, that it is an injury.

However - a friend of a friend who is a vet tech just saw the video and we spoke. The first thing she said is 'it's neurological'. So again - I'm undecided.

I will worm her as suggested earlier in the thread - can't hurt - and hope that a vet can get out here on Monday.

This is so worrisome.

Well Shannon - I think you might be right about this. And even if you aren't, worming them can't hurt. I don't know why I didn't put two and two together, but when I went out today I noticed that Lucy had a sore on her neck. She and the other Nubian had what I thought was lice or mange a while back. Thought it was under control (treated them with pyrethrum). But Lucy seems to be itching more. I read the link you sent and it mentioned itching. I did a search and found pictures and it looks a LOT like Lucy's sores. (see http://users.scpwildblue.com/dhamric...ngeal_worm.htm)

So my questions are: would you treat the entire hred? Just the two Nubians? I just gave the two Nubians 3.5 cc each SQ, but I'm not sure if I should do the toggs. Evidently this is ingested or spread in milk - I don't see that it's actually 'contagious'. Anyone know? Any more advice?

Everyone has been so helpful and I really appreciate it.

They chew holes in themselves when the larvae are migrating it is horrid they will make huge wounds. You do have MW. Neuro symptoms are from the damage of migration paths. That bladder story is pretty common. It is not contagious from animal to animal. Read about the life cycle. It is very specific and since you have the host snail and the deer you need to worm your whole herd for prevention. What is ingested in the milk? nothing to do with MW is anything but eating snails. Please check your dosages and your wormer type to make sure it does the job. This is toxic on the borderline of dangerous at this stage to kill the larvae so it is best to get them while in the stage that is in the digestive system. We had to dose at 3 times normal levels for 5 days and the doe was down for several days loopy acting but recovered and is still a very productive animal kidding and milking normally. Get a vet to give you dosage advice.
http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/deerworm.html
B~

Thank you so much for your post. I still have a few questions - for you or anyone who can help.

If this isn't 'contagious' should I just assume that 2 of my goats ate the wrong snail? Seems so unlikely. And those snails had to be infected too I guess.

So I guess the recommendation here is to treat the two Nubians with the sores for MW, but not the others? But treat the others preventively, correct?

things I've read on the internet say that I should give 1cc/55lbs for 3 days in a row followed by a double-the-cattle dosage of fenbendazole (Safeguard or Panacur) for five days. Banamine can be useful in alleviating the inflammation of nerve tissue. Dexamethozone may also be used.

Does that sound right? Any help is appreciated

Calls into the vet so far have been unproductive - I'll keep trying ,but the info from folks on this forum seem to be more helpful

The OP stated they had not wormed for awhile so treating her with Ivomec was not going to hurt in covering bases. I hope it is just bruising. But I have been through MW, the quicker you start treatment, the better the outcome.

Ivomec, Dex and Banamine at the same time for MW.
Ivomec kills the worms
Dex for swelling
Banamine for pain control and to keep her from putting holes in her side

Safeguard is useless IMO for any worms.

Ivomec injectable is used 1cc per 25lbs orally normally to deworm.
For MW you do it orally AND give the same dose injected.

ONCE

Forgive me - I'm still a bit confused. I read that you treat 3 days in a row 1cc per 50 pounds with ivermectin injected SQ. http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/ar...ngealworm.html I did that yesterday - 190 lb goats, gave 3.5cc to each Nubian in question (with sores). Was that correct? Should I have also wormed with the same stuff and the same amount orally too?

Would you treat the other 3 goats that are not showing any symptoms? And if so, the same amount etc?

If I can't get any Dexamethozone or banamine will she be okay? If I do get some, can you tell me the doses?

I think I'm going to start a new thread with these questions too.

Thank you

Only Ivermectin PLUS will kill MW, the regular stuff has no affect.

On the bright side....

I have a 3/4 nubian doe born with spine curvature, quite obvious but not painful who is perfectly healthy...she's almost 2 and freshened last April and still in milk....she runs and jumps and eats just fine.

I believe that it was just a freak thing..her baby was normal, but I did have to pull him.

I don't understand this. The only difference is the plus has a flukicide. Is it the clorsulon that kills the MW or the Ivomec?

Now, Merial Limited combines ivermectin, the active ingredient of IVOMEC, with clorsulon, an effective adult flukicide.

The new information out there that I used was what I wrote and used. So many sites are out of date, you just have to keep reading and see what works for you. I know that a lot of breeders have upped their dosage of wormers, because it was just breeding super worms. Killing the weak ones, but the more resistant ones were just coming back stronger. Goats have a high metabolism and very little stays in their system long. With MW I had to take everything to the limit and hope for the best. Like I said everybody I've talked to said if its caught early then the animal can be saved. I had a steep learning curve and waited too long for my girls. With you being in GA, I personally would try it. But that is going to have to be your decision. I'm not there to say yes it is or no it's not. You will have to decide if she is bruised or not. You did say there was a donkey in the pasture, so it is possible that they got into it. I can only go by my experience and the fact of your location it is possible. We have had snails here on warm days this winter, along with snakes, salamanders, frogs, weather is crazy.

From my file:
I use dex 1cc per 100lbs for first 3 days, 1/2 cc per 100 lbs day 4 through 6
Banamine is 1cc per 100lbs for no more than 6 days tops.

I will warn you that it is a rough treatment, she'll be loopy while it works. If she is pregnant she will abort. You'll have to make sure she gets up regularly and pees and poops. Watch for pneumonia to set it and treat her with antibiotics if it happens.

I would do fecals on the others and go from there. You are not going to see MW in a fecal though, but it will tell you where you are at on your maintenance for your herd.

Thanks.

I feel I need to do the worming - the sores from her scratching just seems too coincidental. And there are deer here.

I agree - the weather is crazy. It's been wet forever. I have standing water in the pasture and frogs out there that I have NEVER heard in the winter before.

I'll keep an eye out for pneumonia, but so far she's be up and alert. Maybe I caught it quickly enough.

Thanks again

I was told by my vet that it was the flukicide in the Plus that kills the Meningeal worm larvae that causes the damage and that the plain stuff wouldn't work. Hes also the one that told me that it must be injected as orally didn't work either.

Ummmm, the doe is probably scratching because of lice- it is the time of the year for that. Some CoRal, DE, Permethrin, etc. you can get at the feed store.

It is *NOT* the time of year for snails, so it is most likely *NOT* MW! If it were MW, she;d also be leaning against the wall because she had lost her balance. That doe has great balance in those videos.

Lice are common, MW is not. When you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras. Occam's razor tells us the simplest answer is most likely the one you are looking for-

I thought lice or mange mites too - that was about a month ago and I treated then.

True - it is not the time of year for MW, but it was a couple of months ago when they could have contracted it then. The information I've read says it takes a while for the cycle. Am I reading this wrong?

Anyway - a vet will be out this afternoon and maybe he'll have some answers. And if it is MW, at least I've treated for it.

P. tenuis – The White-tailed Deer Parasite“Brain worms” (meningeal worms) can affect sheep, goats, llamas, alpacas, moose and other exotic small ruminants
by M. Kopcha, D.V.M., M.S., J. S. Rook, D.V.M. & D. Hostetler, D.V.MMSU Extension & Ag. Experiment Station
Michigan State UniversityCollege of Veterinary Medicine

White-tailed deer may he parasitized by P. tenuis year-round.However, the neurologic disease seen in aberrant hosts has aseasonal occurrence that starts in the late summer and continues until a hard freeze occurs. A cool, moist summer and/or a mildwinter may extend the period during which the disease occurs.

To understand this disease and how to prevent or minimize its occurrence, it is important to understand the life cycle of P.tenuis in the White-tailed deer and what happens when the parasite is ingested by susceptible ruminants. The life cycle is as follows: adult meningeal worms live in the deer's central nervous system (brain and spinal cord) and produce eggs which hatch into larvae. The larvae migrate from the deer'scentral nervous system to the lungs, where they are coughed into the mouth, swallowed and passed from the intestinal tract with the manure. This portion of the life cycle takes approximately three months. After excreted in the manure, larvae must continue their development in an intermediate host (certain land-dwelling snails and slugs) for another three to four weeks until they reach their infective stage. White-tailed deer become infested with P. tenuis by eating these snails or slugs that contain the infective stage of the larvae. Once ingested, the larvae migrate through the deer’s gut and eventually move into their central nervous system where they mature into adults, produce eggs, and the cycle begins again.

Animals pastured in lowland areas frequented by infected White-tailed deer are prime candidates for exposure to snails containing P. tenuis larvae. When such animals develop neurological problems during the late summer through early winter in the Upper Midwest (the season for exposure may be longer in other parts of the country), “brain worms” are a likely possibility.

Also - another poster wrote:
And BTW, it takes several weeks, maybe months, from the time of ingestion for the worm larva to migrate to the nerve tissue inside the goat, so whether there are any snails (or more importantly slugs) around now doesn't matter. It's whether they were around months ago. If you live in Georgia you have slugs everywhere. They are found on the bottoms of leaves in the fall.

I believe she got her info from The veterinarian School at UGA

Goats are going to scratch, just like they cough.

I've seen MW before- it ain't pretty. She'd have been far worse than what you say before now. Not everything is something to worry about and usually resolves itself if you let it. They did it before we domesticated them and they'll be doing it after we've gone.....

Horses, not zebras.......

Oh I totally agree that not everything is something to worry about - absolutely. A curved spine seemed like something to worry about, to me. The scratching was just another clue to the mystery.

After treating for lice the bedding & any harbouring areas should be cleaned out & disposed(preferably burned but not all can do that anymore). A re-treatment is often necessary, especially in winter when they are inside often.

What was the vet's opinion?
HF

The jury's still out. The vet is unsure right now but is leaning towards something neurological...not injury. Very nice vet, but just starting his career so he wants to talk to some colleagues before diagnosing.

He did take a skin scraping of the sores - maybe that will narrow things down. He gave her 1.5ccs of Thiamine and some Dex. We also wormed her again. He also left me with two more shots of thiamine.

He did not feel anything like a tumor. Temp was normal. Rumen good. Said he thought her right hind leg may have begun to atrophy - basically, he thinks she's bending that way...why? not sure.

Spoke with my original vet too - where this vet is working - and he also mentioned an inner ear thing...any thoughts on that...?

Wow, I really hope you get this figured out. She is a sweet looking little thing. The thing I noticed is she does appear in pain. I noticed in the video that as she is walking, her head is moving up and down with each step. Haven't had that experience with my goats, but I do know when my horses are in pain caused by movement, their heads bob with each step. Just my 2cents. I really hope you get this figured out. Even though she is in pain, she does appear eager and not depressed, so you still have time to figure things out. I feel like she took a hard hit. A spine compression can cause pain in the legs and that can lead to compensating for the injuries that can/will lead to additional problems such as atrophy. This is quite the puzzle and I do hope you figure it out soon.

Still have heard nothing from the vet. Lucy hasn't changed. I am so stumped. Maybe it is an injury. Argggghhh! And the vet goes out of town tomorrow.

Poor Lucy. I don't know what to do. I think I'm going to ask the 'boss' vet to come out with a field xray.... ?

I really don't think any symptoms show polio or listeriosis.

Not sure about MW either...the worming didn't seem to do anything. She's still itching also.