I'm pretty sure I'm not using the medicated Noble - there is one, but there is also this: http://goat.purinamills.com/OURPRODU...6/default.aspx . I'll check - thanks

I'm between Stockbridge and Conyers so Monroe might be a bit of a haul. You think?

I've thought about doing my own fecals, but I just can't do everything here. Perhaps you'll do them for me for a fee...? : )

BTW - do you know a equine chiro in the area?

I SURE hope you're right about the slim chance.

Here's the video on youtube:

one more to load

I posted about Thymine deficiency(good case) and or Meningeal worm/Deer Worm (bad case) but my post seems to have disappeared.

I had two go down with it last year, both different cases, both out of season/ not normal symptoms. But Necropsy confirmed it.

One doe did act OK one day and then lame next. It was in her spine, never made it to brain. Just depends where the worm "hatches' out. Time frame here makes sense to me. Had to hit it hard SQ with ivomec, oral will not do it. Banamine daily will keep swelling down.

Polio/thiamine deficiency treatment is B1 at high dosages. Extra will pass out of body and give her funny colored urine. Will work almost instantly if it is problem.

other youtube video

Not really, im 25 miles from Salem rd, but the feed store I use (funny Im a manager at TSC but buy my feed somewhere else) is a bit of a haul for you, but if you can buy in bulk its worth it, I save $4 a bag on alfalfa pellets and get them for $10, four bags feed my herd for two weeks.
Goat poop is hard to do fecals on and I dont have a scope anymore so Im lazy and have my vet do them for $5

I dont know personally off the top of my head a equine chiro but if you find one I know people that would know the reputation of that person, and may can find one.

Oh my...I truly hope you are wrong, but I will read up on this stuff tonight and make some decisions tomorrow. Thanks so much

I just pmd her trying to find out information as the videos kinda of remind me of polio or listerosis but the goat could have some hoof issues to make her walk that away.
I can send some thiamine with my husband tomorrow if you want to pick some up, however if its the start of polio tomorrow may be too late, this is why I asked about if you had any B12, its not as good but can buy you a little bit of time.

Its really hard to figure out things over a pc because you cant acutally see the animal but I can tell you by the video I would have popped one of mine with thiamine if they suddenly walked like that, but if its been a few days that the goat has done this, then its probably back to the meningeal worm or copper issue

Everybody - thank you so much for all your insight. There are 7 cats milling around me waiting for supper, so I'm off of here for a bit. PLEASE feel free to add any other ideas you (or anyone) might have. And if you get a chance to see the video, it might help - doesn't show a lot.

More later - thanks again - you are all so helpful

btw, my DH works off Salem rd exit 84 in Conyers

its soo hard to tell the you tube was definatly a better video at least it wasnt sideways.
I may can come out saturday and give you my best opinion if you cant afford a vet right now, or you can haul her to the TSC in Monroe anytime after 12 tomorrow and Ill be there, can can bring what you would need to treat her

Couple more questions - sorry.

So you see how she's curved? She kind of walks that way with the back and forth head thing normally - it s hard to tell on a computer.

We don't think she's simply favoring her leg?

I'll read up on polio and listerosis - don't know a thing about them. This 'curvature' thing just started today.

Sorry - what do you mean 'I just pmd her'? Who? and 'send some thiamine with my husband tomorrow'? To TSC?

oh - now I get it

You are so nice for offering.

Do you have a video of the rear legs? I didn't see any dragging of the legs, from what I've read they get paralyzed she may be in the early stages, no first hand experience with MW. SLD farms & others do so it may help them help you identify.

Worming her with Ivermec would be a good idea, she hasn't been wormed in 9months. Looks like process of elimination here. Observe after the Banamine, Ivermec & observe, if there is no improvement treat aggressively for M.W. Yes I agree it is hard to diagnose, it's great Cannon Farms is so close & willing to help you, way to go C.F!

She seems to be straddling her front legs-kinda like keeping her balance? Hard to tell maybe you can view it right-ways to confirm. She looks stiff anyways.

HF

Thanks for checking out the video. Honestly - she's always walked kind of stiff-legged. And she's always done these weird stretches where she stands up on her hind legs with front legs on the wall and arches her back way back with her head and neck stretched back. Weird.

I don't have a video of her hind legs - I'll work on that. No leg dragging.

I think the process of elimination is the way to go, but it may be too late.

I hate these decisions.

I just pmd you

Just one last post;
Your goat is not down, so it's not too late. If it's MW you'd be treating her with Ivermec & Banamine anyways, so why not treat her since she hasn't been wormed anyways, then Cannon Farms has graciously offered to look at her & help diagnose in person.

Nothing lost & if it's MW you get a jump on it.
HF

Im quite puzzled and I dont think this is something that can be solved online, or maybe by anyone other than a vet, but one great thing about this forum is that people are always willing to give help, and the different opinions are priceless.
Im beyond exhausted and am on baby watch, were expecting a litter of baby goats as my doe is huge and shes from a set of quads, so Im about to get loopy and start babbling out of my mind, hey look Im already doing it..

If the goat goes down, Im going to send you my numbers, I cant promise I can come out but you may can come down, but if at all possible get a livestock vet that knows goats involved.

Okay - just took a quick look and I just find it hard to beleive it could be either of these. If either, maybe Listeriosis. But not Polio. Please see bold italic below

Goat Polio and Listeriosis - In most cases, both of these diseases are seen in goats raised under intensive management conditions. Improper feeding, particularly feeding too much grain and too little roughage (hay and forage) is a significant factor in both diseases.
They get 1 and one half cups of grain per day - not much. They get more hay than anything and browse mostly

Polioencephalomalacia (also known as Cerebrocortical Necrosis) is basically thiamine (Vitamin B 1) deficiency. Any change in the rumen's environment that suppresses normal bacterial activity can interfere with thiamine production. Too much grain decreases the pH of the rumen, predisposing the animal to Goat Polio. Glucose cannot be metabolized without thiamine. If thiamine is either not present or exists in an altered form (thiaminase), then brain cells die and severe neurological symptoms appear.
Again - not much grain and her rumen seems to be working perfectly - no problems at all.

Causes of thiamine deficiency include feeding moldy hay or grain, using amprollium which is a thiamine inhibitor (brand name CoRid) when treating coccodiosis, feeding molasses-based grains which are prone to mold (horse & mule feeds), eating some species of ferns, sudden changes in diet, the dietary stress of weaning, and reactions to the de-wormers thiabendazole and levamisole. Each of these conditions can suppress Vitamin B1 production. The usage of antibiotics destroys flora in the rumen and can cause thiamine deficiency. It is important to repopulate the gut with live bacteria after using antibiotics or diarrhea (scour) medications.
She has not been on antibiotics - no moldy hay or grain, no amprollium, no weaning, no wormers. As I said I only grain in the winter and started that about a month ago, but the small amount doesn't seem like it could cause such a change.


Goat Polio generally occurs in weanlings and very young goats, while Listeriosis most frequently affects adult goats.

Symptoms of Polioencephalomalacia can be any combination of or all of the following: excitability, "stargazing," uncoordinated staggering and/or weaving (ataxia), circling, diarrhea, muscle tremors, and blindness.
Not really her symptoms


Listeriosis is brought on by feeding silage, suddenly changing type and kind of feed (grain or hay), parasitism, dramatic weather changes, and advanced stages of pregnancy. The encephalitic form is most common, causing inflammation of the nerves in the goat's brain stem. Symptoms include some or all of the following: depression, decreased appetite, fever, leaning or stumbling or moving in one direction only, head pulled to flank with rigid neck (similar to symptoms of tetanus), facial paralysis on one side, blindness, slack jaw, and drooling. Diarrhea is present only in the strain of Listeriosis which causes abortions and pregnancy toxemia.
Dramatic weather changes? For goodness sake - how do you control that? She's not depressed, she has a good appetite. No drooling, slack jaw or blindness. However she is leaning in one direction and her head is pulled a little bit to her flank - but no rigid neck

jeeze....

listerosis is hard and can kill fast, really if either one your goat would be down. Remember what I said, goat medicine is have guesstamation, I would say she had polio before listerosis because she would be down with fever if it was that,

All grain will contain some mold, and they love to eat hay that is on the floor if its raining and its there vrs good clean hay that they have to get wet for.

Its not polio. I have had polio and the symptoms are very different. symptoms: stargazing, uncoordinated staggering, drunkenness, apparent blindness, rapid eye moving (jerky, shaky eggball)... Untreated, death in 24-72 hrs. Seen polio and listerios, hope to never see either again.
The video is really to short to see much, IMO. Cannon Farms--Meningeal worm is not as uncommon as you might think. Lots of goats in this area have come down with it. Animals die or are put down everywhere because of "paralysis" and people assume it is caused by an injury. The true cause is never discovered.
Natural Beauty is completely right, damage done depends where the parasite hatches. If you read the link I posted it says "favoring" a leg. My buck drug his leg, but the worm can cause nerve damage and that was the end result.
I agree, with goats to often it is a guessing game. So whatever treatment you decide on, good luck to your doe.

could it be tetanus?

Not tetnus unless she developed the rocking horse stance overnight, I doubt it would have come on quicker than 2 days. Was she vaccinated? Why are we grasping at straws? Have we ruled out the 3 suggested illnesses & I missed it?

How is she this morning and what have you administered? Is there any improvement or new symptoms?
HF

No - it's just me...grasping.

We've not ruled out the suggestions, and frankly - I feel it's best to go with your suggestion of Banamine and worming - then see how it goes. It's 5:15 am and I have yet to get to sleep or go to see how she is - thought I'd wait til the morning. Oh wait...it is morning...

Hate to admit it, but with such a super small operation, I steered clear of vaccinations after the the first couple of years.

Cannon Farms has offered much help which I will possibly accept depending on what I see in the daylight...

what a long night it' s been...

Good Morning, I think.

Tetnus is pretty obvious if it is that.

Have to leave for work, I'll try to check in later. Please start her on treatment, whatever you decide to treat her with, generally goats go down quick if it's serious and early treatment can make the difference. In most cases treatment won't hurt her until new symptoms arise to sway the diagnosis one way or the other.

HF

I agree with the statements that MW is not as rare as you think and since you have 2 of the most important contributing factors- wet ground and deer it is highly likely. It manifests in EACH animal differently. The larvae get lost in migration because the goat is not the natural part of the cycle. The neural damage comes from them trying to find the right pathways to the brain and since each larvae takes a different path thus damaging different tissues each case manifests different symptoms. It it a good suggestion to go ahead and treat since you have not wormed in 9 months. A mistake in wet areas regardless of what fecals say. The problem with treating at this stage is you almost have to kill the animals to kill the larvae.
Best Luck.
B~

Okay - this is my main question - do any of these possibilities cause pain? I just gave her the shot of Banamine and spent some time with her. She's still walking strangely and with the curve. She did seem less bothered by me touching her spine and hind legs after the shot, but the curve is still there.

Now this is the big indicator to me: when she went to lay down, it was clearly difficult and uncomfortable. When she did get down she was having a hard time finding a comfortable position. I have this on video and will post later on today. I REALLY think it's an injury or trauma because of this. Unless polio, Meningeal worm, laminitis etc can cause pain or discomfort, that's what the symptoms are pointing to in my mind. Am I deluding myself?

OK> after looking at the pictures and thinking about it, it appears to me that she got T-boned pretty hard in the hip and is compensating for her injury by putting all her weight on the other leg, hence the appearance of a curved spine. Simple as that.

Banamine and rest, with some b-complex for stress. That's all.

I really have to agree. And I think once I post the video of her trying to sit down, it will be even more clear. Unfortunately I only had one shot of Banamine. I guess I need to call a vet unless you can recommend something OTC that would be as effective and not mess up her rumen

not the best quality, but you can see how difficult it is for Lucy to sit down.:

How sad...I say stick with the Banamine and she needs to kept quiet for a time. No jumping! One or more of her disks has been affected and the Anti-inflamatory in the Banamine will help with that...but then the pain killer will mask the pain and she could possibly re-injure it. Do you have a stall you can put her in? I wouldn't use the Banamine more than a few days though.

That video is a much much better angle, thanks.

In the video it appears as though she is bending the leg, somewhat less than normal but she is bending it, but movement closer to the hip is limited. It also looks to me like it's the hip. I would try to rotate her hip to see if she didn't pop something out of the socket. Rotating the leg would tell you exactly where the pain was/starts, best while she has the banamine though I would think, a 2-person job probably while she's lying down, who knows if she did it might pop back in place.

I'm hoping someone who has had MW with their goats takes a look at the video for comparison. I wouldn't suspect MW but I have no experience with it.
One of our vets sent out a notice this fall, stating that MW cases have been on the rise. Apparently she hasn't seen many cases up until now.

Were you able to meet up with Cannon Farms?
HF

Thanks!

I can't be positive but this does not look like meningeal worm infection. We lost a goat to this and it was horrible. It was a gradual onset of staggering and dragging the legs. This goats pain seems to be more in the right hock as it seems unable/unwilling to bend it. I would be looking very, very closely at that right foot/hock. A very teeny, tiny, speck of a spot can cause considerable pain when you try to put weight on it. Check those dew claws also( I think that's what they are called).

It just seems like trauma or injury - she looks like she's in pain. Do you think MW would cause pain?

I need to call Cannon Farms - my day has gone to the dogs

I think I'm going back to the idea of a chiro - I highly doubt that I could put a hip back into place. I would probably do more harm than good.

Thanks - I will

If it were to go back into place, it would be by rotating it. Anything more than that & I think you'd need a vet or an experienced livestock owner-they've dealt with many situations.

I don't know how painful MW is. Someone else will have to answer that. If it is MW without treatment she will suffer and die. Ivermec is cheap (dosewise).

I do know that goat is in pain. As was suggested I think it would be best for her to be in a smaller enclosed area, one where she can get some excercise if she wants, but rest peacably "viewing" her friend(s).

Yes she's in pain. Get her some pain meds and treat her. I understand you cannot take her to the vet at this time. Get someone to look at her in person. If she continues to be in pain, while on meds, and you see no improvement in a few days, I would put her down. Continuing as is with no diagnosis & proper treatment, no improvement would be cruel.

This may sound inhumane to some, but as goat stewards it is our responsibility to take care of our animals, one way or the other.

HF

Stupid question - you think its the right side. Right when looking at her from the front or the back?

I don't think I can put her down. I'll get pain meds and call the vet.

I think it would be best to have someone look at her. We're just going back & forth here, guessing as others have said, there's been some very good guesses I might add. Heck that's what the vet will do, but he/she will have the advantage of seeing her in person, and the treatments on hand, explain your situation & they may give you a break on the cost.

Please keep us updated. I've been thinking of her all day, wondering how she was doing.
HF