Hobbling Goats

See you can't make that assumption

of course animals being herded in Africa are skin and bones mostly---there ain't no great grazing grounds now is there?

you can't compare apples to oranges.

In Ireland they herd sheep. They are healthy fat perfect eat good etc. the shepards herd on green grass..........the african pastures are not even close to that

so it is just so wide spread of a situation on climate etc.

where would an african get into a cut and feed program. they can't ship in anything for humans let alone feed for a goat or cow..LOL



hobble a human in downtown bad area of detroit or LA or NYC or anywhere in the world....how long they got?

LOL

I think that is really my point. But also, taking into account the threads recently about how many americans are falling below the poverty line etc. would these not be legitimate techniques for these people? I think increasingly the west will have to change its standards for an animals care, to take into account the increasing cost of land and food.

There are not many people out there I will guess, that can afford the ideal 10 acres or whatever, they may have a small backyard, but need to keep animals to supplement the food they buy. Is this any different to the situation in developing countries? Maybe the actual level at which poverty is determined is different (i.e. for a family of four in the US, if you earn below $22,000 you are counted as being in poverty, if a normal african makes that in 10 years theyre doing well), but the principle still applies, kind of like that square foot gardening thing but with animals I guess, maximising your output from a small area.

Cheers
Rowan

Are you actually comparing being tasered to hobbling an animal? The rest of the conversation has been quite sensible, please try and keep it that way.

Thankyou for your input B. In terms of your first sentence, well thats kind of what I was looking for really, western input on these practices. Its interesting to me to see the differences in beliefs regarding the treatment / housing of animals between the west and developing countries.

I don't think Rio meant the respect for animals thing in an elitist manner, but I think it applies to the world over, not just the developing countries or the west. A significant proportion of people who have animals do not have the proper respect for them. I would argue that they area food source and should be treated as such, but the techniques used to keep them should give them a good quality of life at the same time, what I wanted input on was whether hobbling and caging would be considered as acceptable by people from farms who can afford not to have to do either technique. And actually, I think the general response has been positive, obviously with caveats.

Thanks
Rowan

Sorry I should have made myself clear, I was specifically talking about herding in the african context, I have no experience / knowledge of other herding systems and was not generalising.

Cut and feed is actually a big thing in Africa. Nothing is 'shipped in'. Most cut and feed is grass of one kind or another, Napier grass for example. It is a cheap but good source of food, as well as Maize stover (the left over plant once the cob has been removed). Pineapple waste from Del Monte is another cheap source of food local to where I am based, obviously this wouldnt apply to all areas of Africa. There is actually lots of affordable feed available in africa, you just have to be willing to go and collect it.

Thanks
Rowan

Great Thread.
Great discussion.
B~

I think I know what you mean now.

You are saying---if I am quessing right----that more Americans (and other countries) should be incorporating small confinement, etc. to be able to grow their own meats on small land?

Is that right?

And to use practices from other areas in that situation?


If that is what you are saying---yes I agree.

Yes someone on 1 acre can have a pen for some goats. Many homesteads had a cow in a smaller pen. For milking right at your door. Yes many farms never had tons of pasture for their livestock. Hogs were kept in pens and fed scrapes etc until butchering.

I think I got your drift now.


But being in America right now, we do things big..LOL...but yes there are many small farmers that can do animals on small land. I think it is done all the time actually. many a 1 or 2 acre home has a few chickens in a coop with a small outdoor run....they have a few goats in a small enclosure....they might have a cow for milk on 1/10 acre pasture, a few ducks in a pen with a baby's swimming pool for water, a few quail in a coop, etc

there are tons of animals that are "small housed" on little land in my area.



I think I got it right..LOL
if you mean that..LOL

The cut and feed issue would fit right in with your horticulture as goat poo is not hot it can go directly into the garden area. So not only does the goat provide the family with milk and meat but also with free fertilizer for its home garden. I compost all my barn and pen (dry lot and ones with grass get raked and it get used in flower beds, garden area and around the base of my berry bushes).

These people need maximum output on minimum input, they live vastly different lives then we do here in America.

I think it all comes down to the welfare of the animal.

Unfortunately, to way too many people, what's in the animals best interests (and happiness) is completely confused with what people THINK they want. The needs of my goats, my chickens, my cats, my dogs are NOT the same needs I have. And as long as they aren't the ones heading off to work every day, or cleaning the house, or providing the bulk of the nurishment, then they have less voice in decisions that I do. So they will be loved on, provided treatment when necessary, even given treats on occasion. BUT they all live under a certain financial restriction. Which sadly means, if my very favorite dog had to have $10,000 treatment, we would have to make a very horrible decision. That's just the way it is here.

I had a whole rant here.. LOL. I'm deleting it though to just say this:
I think sometimes we get confused about what an animal needs versus what we THINK they need. And sometimes people have to make a much more specific distinction between NEED and WANT than we do.

I don't see a problem with hobbling. And I don't actually see a problem with tying out for short periods with supervision, either. I cannot condone keeping any animal in a tiny cage (even with enough room to stand up and turn around) for his/her entire lifespan, although I'm sure it can be done successfully. Hobbling seems much more humane than that, with lots of potential freedom.

I'm one of those weird individuals who think providing green stuff for my goats, in whatever way possible, is preferable to being fed just hay with the green stuff out of reach because it's beyond the confines of their yard. All of the maurading predator comments have merit, and I think we have to be responsible.

But we have to balance everything out. I think sometimes we lose sight of that, and therefore, as other posters have mentioned, the relationship between critter and human gets confused. Instead of having them to provide milk, meat, eggs, etc.. they have us as servants and they just free load, with us providing ever increasing amounts of whatever we think they NEED (again.. confusing need with want).

At any rate.. it turned into a rant lol. I appreciate this thread, and glad for the chance to voice this here. I will say my attitudes have changed as I've gotten older... when I was young and idealistic I would have gasped at the idea of having anything other than what Vicki posted as the 'ideal'. These days, I know sometimes we have to trim off the excess and do the best we can. And as long as everyone is happy and healthy, than we are doing it right.

That said, my chickens have been on egg laying hiatus for months. But they are pets and I love them.. LOL. See, even with a fairly 'balanced' idea of what is acceptable here and what is not, I still have room to choose to feed, house, and clean up after them even though they don't come close to earning their keep. Obviously, without money for grain and shavings, that wouldn't even be an option... and we'd have a freezer full of meat.

__________________
Silence is not Agreement

http://www.chickenchatter.org/

QoTl, you make some fantastic points and I agree with you on all counts. On your chicken front, I have a very simple philosophy about animals - if they dont provide anything (alive), then they will provide dinner for a day or two (dead). No exceptions. If you buy a dog for guard dog duty on the understanding that it comes from good guarding stock, but it wont guard, it either goes back or gets sold (At worst you can sell it to the chinese who will eat it). If you buy goats for milk, but the milk is not of good quality or not enough, then you have goat for dinner and start again. Same goes for chickens.

Think about it this way: Sure, you can probably afford to pamper these non producing chickens, but 'just because it is, doesnt mean it should be'.

Thanks
Rowan

Rowan-

I completely agree with you about the chickens.

But as long as I can still choose to keep them, I choose to do so. And I understand it's my choice only- not everyone gets to make a decision there.

It all sort of reminds me of someone on another board. She was VERY new to chickens, and was horrified at 'culling' any. She made the statement that she would be keeping every roo hatched, little realizing that to HER that was the right thing to do, but to the CHICKENS, too many roos makes life miserable.

It's less probable to say would you, as a human, be happy in a cage or hobbled with all your HUMAN hopes and dreams. It makes more sense to say if you were a goat, with goat dreams of green leaves and strings of friends, be happy in a cage or hobbled? Dogs aren't people in furry coats, and goats aren't people with fancy headgear.

Meghan

__________________
Silence is not Agreement

http://www.chickenchatter.org/

Wow! Found so many good points in this discussion. Yes we in the West do have a different attitude about animal care. But I think the differences are in a large part adaptation to our environment and what is allowed...
For me hobbling my goats would never work simply because I am gone 9 hours a day. I only have a small parcel of land compared to some and everything here has a job.
Since I am a single mom raising my kids on my own and I make less than 30k a year I fall into the poverty line. I kills me every time I go to the store to buy food and 5-7 dollars of it are taxes. Our economy is so very different one really cant compare them. LOL my oldest daughter just moved out after "needing a place to stay" for 5 months and now my cupboards are bare! Dang it should have processed her since she was eating more than providing.(jk) I do have 2 doz eggs in the frig, 1/2gal of milk, and the Christmas ham we won't starve and I consider this lucky. But I digress. I do have to say my doe's even now with snow on the ground and more falling by the second are not locked up in the barn they come and go as they please, but my buck is kept in a pen because he would eat to much for his once a year service the pen is a dog run expanded with cattle panels so about 16'x24' would this be considered cruel? My dogs are kept in a fenced area that is almost 1/2 acre along with the chickens why because I can't be there to watch them 24/7 so I adapted their living to our environment.
Part of our humanity is the ability to solve a problem and adapt the solution to meet our needs and in Africa hobbling may be the best solution they have come up with so far.

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The more I know people … the more I respect animals.
Lovn Ivy Farm
http://lovnivy.webs.com/

First, hobbles is just the silliest idea. Easy prey for anything that pleases, and the animal would get hung up on EVERYTHING. If you want to become a full time goat herder, then I suppose it would be OK - but how likely is that?

I will never condone 'tiny' pens or cages no matter the situation. In almost every way I imagine it would lead you to 'factory farm'-like conditions. Tiny cages/areas lead to filthy environments (unless you like cleaning several times per week - who has time?) which leads to disease. Anything that keeps an animal from behaving normally will cause stress. Pretty soon you're pumping them full of antibiotics to keep them healthy, and mutilating them so they can't injure themselves/others because of overcrowding or stress.

Adequate sized pens don't have to be HUGE, though. I prefer pasturing my animals when I can, because it cuts the feed bill. If you are low on space, You could make multiple small pens and do rotational grazing. I do have my buck goats in fairly 'small' pens and they are free fed hay. Not a pasture, but adequately sized for a single buck to exercise and behave normally. I think you could house animals 'adequately' and still feed your family well.

I would say if you have small acreage, plan for 'smaller' animals. Get miniature dairy or meat goats, raise rabbits, raise chickens, raise a few feeder pigs, and maybe even raise a meat cow on dry lot. A pasture doesn't have to be HUGE - just enough for normal behavior and exercise. The housing should be large enough not to overcrowd, feeders should be placed far enough apart that , for example, goats that are lower on the totem pole aren't injured or starved during feeding time, and hay will likely have to be feed free choice 24/7. It could be done, if well planned out and managed.

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.