doeling CAE positive-should I return it?

Sorry Vicki, you are mistaken. CAE is *not* just spread in colostrum and milk- goats can shed the virus in other various way-

FACT- A buck can be shedding the virus and passing it on to does he breeds- not through semen neccarily, but through other bodily fluids- FACT- a friend of mine borrowed Faith Farms Samaritan. The truck he rode home in had her negative does in there too- I was a witness to their testing- several does got a passive dose of it and tested positive in a herd that had not had any positive animals in it *ever*. She began her herd in 1991 and has tested every year. They retested these does and they came back negative in a subsequent test.

FACT- Joyce Lazzaro, who's Saanendoah.com was THE goat care website before Fiasco Farm.com, had pos. and neg. does together for years and never got it passed between animals. FACT- Raymond Weiser sold out his herd of Saanens and Nubians but not before he sold Foxtrot Frisbe back to her breeder, where she was found to be pos. after leaving her original herd to go into the pos. herd of Nubians as a negative doe.

And right now, the person who I work with on my Saanens sold a negative doe to a man with grade nubians- she kidded recently to his buck with a hard udder and no milk- there are other goats at his place with big knees and hard udders. They are testing now. My bet is that she contracted CAE at his place.

As to catching it at a show- many years ago, a very well known Saanen breeder took his vet tested 2x a year via WADDL show does to the nationals in CA. Guess what? Several of his best animals popped positive after that nationals- I personally saw the ravages of CAE on these does-

NO ONE can tell me that CAE is *only* passed through milk and colostrum. I know for a *FACT* as a first person witness that it is transfered in many otehr ways we do not know yet!

99.99% of the time it is colostrum. The rest, breeders excuses for why their stock is positive from sloppy management or plain laziness, or burying their head in the sand about CAE and not wanting to do prevention correctly, or having their children in charge of the prevention with no oversite. And the biggy, just lieing.

Sorry but we only really know what happens in our own herds, stories like the above are just that, stories. There is not this wide spread spreading of CAE amongst adults even bucks breeding, they were always positive just then tested...because she was going back to her owner who asked for the test. The doe did not catch CAE by being bred to that buck, is the whole herd tested negative? I dont' consider a doe to be negative until she has repeated testings or I raised her myself, then if she caught CAE via all this magic I would believe the stories. And yes I know Joyce personally.

What we do know shouldn't be twisted because of marketing, you can see it right now happening with G6S in nubians, in fact the posts right now on Nubian Talk, take out the G6S and put in CAE and you have repeats of exact posts from the 90's! It's smoke and mirrors it's just nobody says it outloud but me

And read your last sentence...you know for a FACT that it is transfered in many other ways we do not know yet? How is it a fact if we don't know yet? That is the double talk that is WHY we as an industry still have CAE animals being sold to new folks! Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

Sorry Vicki, you are sadly mistaken. Too many people out there have their own stories just like I have told that show things are different.

Others are not saying it, but you are. .......the only one saying what others know through personal experience to be different. It's like you are right and everyone else is wrong or lying? Come on now.......

Yes, your experience is different, but that does not make the rest if us all liars because your experience is something else- no explanation seems to be good enough for the rest if us to not get a lecture that we are wrong because some sort of imagined criteria set by you has not been met......

Get a PCR on that doe, retest by WADDL and let us all know what the results are, you probably have a false pos. due to other factors in the does immune system.

You know I have been thinking on this one alot yes I have 2 + does that are seperated from the main herd not by a fenceline but by at least 150 feet. These animals are feed last have there own set of trimming gear etc. I have read many times about Supposedily neg farms that suddenly come up pos. Some goats will show neg for years then convert. I have also wondered about self milkers or older goats that may want to nurse on one another, or babies that many try to nurse more then one goat would it be spreadable that way, but that would mean that it is being transferred in the milk.

One of the pos does I have been made an offer on by someone that knows her status, she raises Boers and it trying to get spotted boers. This doe has great body capacity and is an all around great goat other then her CAE status. But I do not like the idea of selling or even giving away a + doe even to someone that knows.

Do these that reportedly got CAE from a show still show? If they do I would have to question the truthfulness if you KNOW you got CAE from showing why would you then want to infect more animals by showing them.

With my pre breeding test I found out my buck was positive. after 2 months of research, which include talking to OSU vet school, and taking advice fromsomeone that has been in the goat world for yearsand whose opinions I trust even though they may not allways be to my preference, I chose to bred him to my girls this year pos and neg (reg). The only other choice would be to breed them to a AM buck and lose a year on breeding as I would end up with only AM out of this breeding. I was very careful and only hand bred did not let him lick all over the girls or have too much interaction. All the neg were bred before we started on the 2 + does that will most probably be going to a vet school to be used as learning tools (necropsy).

I do know the gentlman that owns the full sibling doe of my buck happens to be a friend of the woman that raises boers, when I recently saw her I told her she may want to tell him to get his doe tested as her sibling tested +, while she acted like I was overreacting she said she would give him the message.

I have heard of people completely wiping out their herd due to a false + and of others keeping positives forever. I have heard of others that supposedly have a neg herd for year then gave away a positive doe and still said they had been negative for years. My husband and I decided that keeping positive was just not in the plans for our little farm. I have limited space ( city regulations on goats per acre we live in an area 5 miles from city limits but got incorporated by the city about 3 years ago)and could bring in new blood from neg does to meet our breeding plans and make all of our goat chores easier.

These does I mentioned never left their farm again and were slaughtered.

BUT.......

You would not believe what shows up at an ADGA national show.......

In reality an ADGA national show is no different than any ADGA open show. Anyone within driving distance to it can show, it is not like any livestock national where there is a point system etc.. so only champions or those who have won previously can be shown. So of course locals who come with their stock they have just purchased come with abscess and swollen knees, in some instances purchased from those who take the top places at Nationals, who wouldn't show up with abscess or swollen knees because they know how to market their animals.

And Betsy, being passionate and knowledgeable about a subject means you don't back down, I am not going to agree with you on open forum about this subject just so I can appear nice. It's way to important for new folks not to be talked down to. The numbers were staggering in those that came to a forum for the first time to then test and find out they bought positive stock, thanks to the internet those numbers go down each year. Making new folks better purchasers is not a bad thing.

If CAE was spread so easily like has been talked about, than how did heat treating and pasteurising give us negative herds? Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

All, thank you for keeping this controversial topic civil. It's a very important subject to discuss openly and I certainly appreciate both the candor and the civility.

Of course, I also hope that it continues

Heat treating/pastuerizing did that because that is the nature of some viruses. And for me, the jury is still out on heat treating. Heat breaks down the protein coat on the virus wall and the virus dies. Same with drying out. I am a believer that while pasteurizing does work, heat treating is 'iffy' at best, which is why I use cow colostrum from a jersey herd that is negative for everything under that sun.

There is no One True Right And Only Way for everyone with CAE or anything else for that matter, just like religion.

The *only* One True Right And Only Way to deal with the situation is the one that is right *for you*.

*To me*, to say to someone that 'this is the only way that this situation can happen' not only does a huge dis-service to the person who has a situation where the answer can be as simple as 'when you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras' and they choose a path that is based on only the info from someone else who speaks over others without then going to someone else for other perspectives, it also shows the insecurity of the person giving the unilateral info to begin with.

One thing about goats is that they can and WILL make liars out of you every time. There is nothing constant in their world with all the health, management or nutritional issues they have. What works in one herd will not necessarily work in another herd. And it shouldn't. Old time breeders will tell you that they still see something new every year.

Another anecdote I am a first hand witness to: Whatever you want to say about Patti Dean, she kept a tight ship at Willow Run and all the mature animals there were tested CAE negative! We are talking over 600 animals here.

She sold several nice adult Nubians to a very well known Nubian breeder in my area some years back, who was known locally to have severe CAE problems- one was a doe named Trolley. So all these does came to live at his farm. When I saw Trolley some months later at the TN Valley show, her knees were huge. Patti was standing right next to me when we pointed that out- all she could do was shake her head with the rest of us....

I tested my entire herd on Monday morning. Monday afternoon, my 4-Her's family (whose herd of 4 we also tested) drove down to Concord for Christmas, which is only 30 minutes from Davis. So we saved fed-ex costs because she was able to just drop it off in their refrigerated drop. We were told they would test the samples yesterday (Tuesday), and email the results, but I haven't gotten anything back yet. I thought they always tested on Wednesdays, so maybe that's it. Even though we've always been negative, this time I do feel a sense of anxiety...yuck. If anything comes up positive, we will slaughter.

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Joan Crandell
Wild Iris Farm
"Fair"- the other 4 letter F word." This epiphany came after almost 10 days straight at our county fair.

I just got my results back. Sugar was positive for CAE a second time which only confirmed what we thought. I am glad we returned her and her breeder was very apologetic...she tested her entire herd as well to see where the culprit came from...she just started into nigerians and maybe had some animals that weren't tested? She returned Sugar's purchase price which was fine with me even though we had 7 months of hay, grain, milk, etc. in her. The rest of my herd is still negative for CAE and CL. We will go back to a 6-month interval for a few more times before we go back to once yearly.

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Joan Crandell
Wild Iris Farm
"Fair"- the other 4 letter F word." This epiphany came after almost 10 days straight at our county fair.

Bringing in Nigerians has nothing to do with a 9 month old Nubian testing positive. This is not like the flu and physically contagious to the general population.
If she is dam raised then the dam of the kid is positive as well. If she was fed on pooled milk in a prevention situation a goat or goats is/are positive who was fresh at the time and the milk was not treated properly. Those are the only two explanations for a 9 month goat to be positive.

B~

Sorry, I misspoke. When I talked with her originally, the new goats were what SHE pointed to, which led me to believe she hadn't tested THEM. I am sure she had nigerians when THIS doeling was born and perhaps fed colostrum/milk from them? I said Nigerians only because that was the new breed and latest animals she had gotten into, not to say that they are a suspect group of critters themselves. I am just relieved that my herd is still negative, etc. on everything.

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Joan Crandell
Wild Iris Farm
"Fair"- the other 4 letter F word." This epiphany came after almost 10 days straight at our county fair.

Yes congratulations on sticking with your clean herd goals even with the attachment to the new doe and the expenditure on her so far. Hard decision but it will keep it simple and clean.
B~

Just remember you may be slaughtering a negative animal with antibodies for CAE! We need those!

If it is that doeling PLEASE do a PCR.:-)

http://www.vet.uga.edu/VPP/CLERK/logan/index.php

CAE virus infects goats primarily by horizontal transmission via ingestion of infected colostrum or infected milk. The virus is absorbed across the small intestine and infects the mononuclear cells.3,16 There is also transmission of CAE virus by direct contact between goats via shedding of the virus in the saliva, the urogenital secretions, and the feces. Contact with the blood of an infected animal can also transmit the disease.9 Some sources speculate in utero or vertical transmission; however, studies to date have not documented this form of viral transmission.13,15 CAE virus remains latent until the monocytes mature into macrophages.16,17 The macrophages then disseminate to other tissues such as mammary gland, choroid plexus, synovium, lung interstitium, and their associated draining lymph nodes.17 Clinical signs and lesions of CAE are associated with the viral replication in the infected macrophages. Active viral infection induces a strong, but non-protective, humoral and cell mediated immune response.10,12,16 It is also important to note that the maternal antibodies passed in the colostrum are not protective for kids ingesting the colostrum.1

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Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

The breeder just called me and is sending me her tests; all her herd came back negative. So did mine and the two does we bought milk from. The only positive was the doeling who we retested. While I am tickled for the breeder (god only knows the anxiety she had) I am truly confused now.

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Joan Crandell
Wild Iris Farm
"Fair"- the other 4 letter F word." This epiphany came after almost 10 days straight at our county fair.

Could one of the 4H kids have fed her raw milk from one of their does?

At this point I am questioning everything. I was so sure that it must have come from somewhere outside. This doeling's pen-mate got exactly the same milk and she is negative, that's why. The only difference was they came from different herds.

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Joan Crandell
Wild Iris Farm
"Fair"- the other 4 letter F word." This epiphany came after almost 10 days straight at our county fair.

Kudos to you JCran for trying to keep a clean herd! I know it must be a hard decision after you've owned the doeling for so long. What's worse is you havn't found the origin. That must be frustrating.

Just a couple of thoughts that might be broaden the quest: 9 months is a long time, is it possible the breeder had a CAE positive doe that she's sold? Maybe the doeling stole some milk (unlikely since she's a bottle baby) or the possible sold doe was one who contributed to milk for the doeling at just a few days old?

At this point I would have culled the 9 mo doeling after 2 positive tests also. I've never done the PCR test but it sound like a good idea and maybe something to give the breeder and/or you peace of mind.

I'm sorry you're having to go through this. It is a necessary evil if the goat world is to rid itself of these types of diseases.

HF