Giving copper boluses - alternative

nehimama · #21 12/10/09, 07:53 AM

Alice, could you please provide the link for the WSU discussion list? Thanks!

Loretta

southerngurl · #22 12/10/09, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

The following is just my opinion and thought process.

I bolus, as mentioned above, but it's a skill learned and a fear overcome. The marshmallow option is simply a step along the way to learning to bolus.

The copper particles in Copasure are not uniform. When you pour out the contents, you'll see that there are itty bitty particles and larger ones. Unless your goats are like my OCD husband and chew every bite twenty times, it is my opinion that the possibility of breaking up the particles to the point of ineffectiveness is minimal.

I can't agree with that, their teeth back there are different than ours and very efficient. I think a few chews would make a huge difference in the rods. The rods are supposed to be difference sizes, the different sizes they already are, for a reason. A chewed bolus us basically a wasted bolus.

Cliff · #23 12/10/09, 08:30 AM

Goats are like cows, they only chew enough to mix in a little saliva and break the stuff down just enough to swallow it. They chew when they regurgitate their cud.
I doubt they'd chew more than one or two times on a small bit of marshmallow. Especially if you gave them a little piece before hand and they knew what it was. They'd gulp it right down. I can almost guarantee they wouldn't chew enough to effect the release of copper.
Whoever tries this method first please let us know how it goes.

susanne · #24 12/10/09, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

and you wouldn't find any goats who died of copper toxicity except perhaps in a lab.

Vicki

wrong. there was a report of a goat herd in california that lost many animals to copper toxicity.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17696861

madness · #25 12/10/09, 09:23 AM

I can already say that when I gave my girls a mix of the copper bolus with some oats and molasses (chilled into a "cookie"), they gulped it right down. In a fairly short time, all the symptoms of copper deficiency were gone - no more burnished colors, tails growing back hair, etc. They might not have gotten the real full dose because some has passed through, but it was what I could do at the time without having any instruction on bolusing. Next time, I do plan on shoving the pill down their throat, I just wasn't ready for it this time.

**mygoat** · #26 12/10/09, 11:52 AM

I'm not saying I'm scared to bolus. It's just one less thing that I'd have to spend money on. I just have a few goats so buying the large container of copper seems excessive anyways. If I can use a marshmallow, which is in my cupboard already - AND they'll enjoy it and give me less fuss - then why not?

fishhead · #27 12/10/09, 03:39 PM

If it's effective and easier on both parties why not use the marshmallows?

Mrs. Jo · #28 12/10/09, 04:34 PM

I think it will work as long as you realize you are not going to get the same result as those who bolus do. You won't know how much of it is in them or passed through, so it's even more of a guess about doses and timing. Or if it's wearing off sooner than it would otherwise?

I just bolused my herd and they all went down so easily I was surprised. I got the bolus down their throat and then stuck a handful of grain under their nose. Their first reaction was to swallow, so they could gobble the grain.

**mygoat** · #29 12/10/09, 05:09 PM

What size capsules do you use for miniature goats or miniature kids - like nigerian dwarfs? 00? I have miniatures - essentially pygmies but more proportional.

They weigh about 80 lbs, max. Weight tapes will tell me that they weigh 120 lbs though... which is NOT the case.

HappyFarmer · #30 12/10/09, 06:50 PM

The dosage needed is measured in grams, not capsule size, though a 00 capsule will hold a certain # of grams every time. Dosage is based on the the copper amounts stored in the liver, which depends on your hay, pasture & supplements, not to mention the havoc antagonist minerals can cause.

Saanendoah has a nice chart for sizing purposes & general knowledge, a link to a mineral map etc.; Each owner has to determine what dose is needed for each goat based on their weight.

What I'm trying to say is, what size capsule you use will depend on the deficiency level not the type of goat you raise. Mygoat your pygmy's need the capsule size related to your area & feeding regime.

I just wanted to clarify this for anyone new to bolusing.
HF

**mygoat** · #31 12/10/09, 08:00 PM

I know there is a dosage, but I wanted to know what size capsule was safe for them that wouldn't cause choking. Especially in my young kids. If they only hold a certain amount that's fine - I'll just use more than one for my full size wether, lol. I have a scale and the dosage I found was 1gm per 22 lbs.

Due to the loosing of the hair on the tail in a couple of mine, color bleaching, and poor hair coat I believe using copper in my herd is warranted but I've never supplemented aside from my Sweetlix meatmaker minerals. They eat it but apparently not enough. Either that or the copper source is inadequate.

Briza · #32 12/10/09, 08:07 PM

It's the form the copper is in that makes the minerals in mixes insufficient. Most of it is sulfates which break down quickly and do not contribute to storage levels in the liver. The oxide is very slow to break down and that is why this works so much better than just oral supplements. Another benefit is that often the contents and condition of the rumen do not allow for proper processing and uptake of nutrients including micronutrients and so with the oxide there at all times in the abomasum the supply is more constant. The rumen can be disturbed far more readily than the second stomach and so this is a more dependable way to get a steady supply in the bloodstream. We also dose at 1 gm per 22 lbs. You will be SO glad you did. Nothing helps quite the same way this does.
B~

Alice In TX/MO · #33 12/10/09, 10:16 PM

http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html

Scroll waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down the page. There's even a picture of the various capsule sizes.

where I want to · #34 12/10/09, 10:31 PM

I read a study by a university in Norway (? can't remember what country now) that found that the copper bolus reduces stomach worms while copper sulfate has no effect, even when continuously fed. This study was the only scientific study I could find (and it was on sheep) about copper and was what made me decide to do it.
I have yet to successfully get the second bolus down all my does though my technique is getting better.

Feathers-N-Fur · #35 12/10/09, 11:06 PM

I think I read that same study. I found it very interesting that they were giving all this copper to sheep, when, here in the U.S., it is believed to be toxic to sheep. That article helped push me along into bolusing as well.