Umm, how do you know they didn*promise* her they would take the doe in to see a vet in the am?
They tried to call that night and when there was no one available they did call and go in in the am.She said she expected to see the doe dead the next am.( when she checked on it)Not that she left it to die purposely the night before.

What else could she have done? She worked for 2 hrs, she didnt have experience as she stated that it was her first time to deliver a goat. No vets available. Just shoot her? When option B is to take her to the vet in the am IF she makes it.
IF she had pain meds I am sure she would have given them. Maybe she did, who knows , we werent there.

My point is dont assume what was said and done when you werent there firsthand.

Very good point cliff.

Also, I know many a woman who has been in labor for 24 hours and pushed for hours and hours. . .I know I was personally in hard labor for 16 hours with my first, so I can easily see a younger person thinking it might work out.
Just something to consider. . .

Yes I did walk away when I should have stayed. But even if I would have stayed with her trying all night to get those babies out and I couldnt would the outcome be any different than it is now? Call me selfish and lazy whatever but I am not. If I didnt care about this goat at all, I wouldnt have stayed out there for as long as I could trying to get those ---- babies out. That was something I have never done before and I was pretty much going in there blindly.

No i said that it doesnt matter how you guys disagree now. We did what we thought was right at the time. Bad choice, sure but that is no way going to change the outcome now. Blaming me for it now is not going to change anything. Actually just because someone isnt a RVT, that doesnt make them not a tech. Where I work you dont have to be registered to be a tech., the difference between the 2 is one makes more money.

How do you know I think? This was a bad situation, things should have been done differently. Dont you dare assume things about me when you have no idea.


Me being there would not have changed the situation at all. The outcome would have still been the same.

Maybe we should have aborted her, we didnt and nothing is going to change that now. We honestly didnt think that she was bred when we found her in the pen. We didnt think about it until she really started showing and we knew for sure that she had been bred. I cant just abort those babies when they would have had a fighting chance at living. I have a problem with that and there is no way in hell. I could just abort living things.

I said that I was prepared to put her down if needed and I was. I was not allowed to put her down, otherwise she would be gone now. I did not want her to suffer and I did not want her to be out there all night with the babies in her.

Dont you dare say what I did was animal cruelty. I take ---- good care of my animals. I have had to take care of some severe injuries on my horses in the last year, If i am such a cruel person for letting a goat deliver on my own, then my horses would not be healed like they are.
Do not tell me what to do, I do not appreciate it at all. You werent there, you dont know what went on and you dont know how you would have reacted in the same situation if it was your first time.

Just because I didnt say that I pushed it with my parents, doesnt mean that I didnt. Do not assume that I would have said anything, obviously I need to watch what I write on here because some people will obviously take it a different way.
I talked to the lady I got the pygymy buck from and she told me that the bucks sire looked exactly like this little doeling looks like right now. She is tiny. The vet did say that even if a pygmy was bred to a another pygmy they can still have larger babies.

Nope I am not a RVT. I am a tech though, I do have experience. The only difference is money and I am planning on going to school next semester.

How do you know that there wasnt a promise of a vet in the morning? Maybe I didnt mention that. Dont assume that you know everything.

Dont even say that I ignored all the advice on here. I talked to my vet and followed everybodys advice. Just because you dont agree with what happened that doesnt mean you need to act the way you are. It is kinda ridiculous. I did say that I felt horrible about leaving the doe out there, go back and re-read, you will see that.

What my family and I did was not animal abuse in the slightest and I dont appreciate being called one. Go get off you high horse, things might have turned out the same if this was your first time dealing with a bad dystocia also with no experience.

They are both good. Mama isnt that sore anymore at all and the baby is nursing now.

Cliff I couldn't have said it better!


Kiera, I hope to see some pictures of the baby when she is older! Faith is a wonderful name! I couldn't tell from the pic what she might be, but I am voting for all Pygmy just cuz she is so darn cute!

I didnt leave the doe to die purposely. I didnt want her to die and I did everything that I was capable of doing that night. We did what we thought was right.

Im not sure what type of pain meds I could have given her. I had bute, If I knew the dosage and if i knew it wouldnt hurt her I would have given her that.

I dont know about bute. I know its ok in horses but have no idea about pain meds for goats.

I know you did the best you could and you have a doe and her kid now.
I have been in this same situation with a friend and their goat. The doe had to be put down after I spent hours trying to pull the kid,it was just to big. The couldnt afford to do a c section. I felt horrible because I knew they were going to shoot her so I kept trying. The kid was dead when we found her in labor trying to push it out. In the end we lost both.
Glad you have Mom and baby.

Anyone else before you half read a thread and them judge please read page 2 she had already asked her mom for the section and mother refused!!

You did the best you knew how and your hearts in the right place.

Kierababy16,
I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience. Being 17 and inexperienced isn't much different than being 55 and inexperienced. The learning curve is steep.
I'll share what I did in a terrible emergency. I tried to remember the most experienced people on this list. I looked up Vicki's website, got her phone number but couldn't reach her. I then went to Suzanne's personal info and called her. Nothing saved my little beautiful doelings, but I was conforted by the knowledge that I had an experienced goatherder on the phone. Suzanne didn't beat me up; probably because I was doing that enough to myself.

I committed a great error that cost me two potentially great milkers, then later lost their mother. If you need help, call someone. Most on here will be happy to try to give sound advice, and if we can't we'll know someone who can.

I'd also like to see a pix of Faith.
Best Paul

Kierababy16,

Dont pay attention to the ones that have decided that they have a right to flame you. This forum is suppose to be for helpfull ADVICE. Eveidently in their little warped world that probably isn't going right to begin with, they have a need to lash out at anyone they can. I really don't understand how the mods have let this go on as long as it has. It should have been squashed several pages back, and a STERN warning to the offending posters. I have 2 goats that will be kidding in the latter part of Feb and March, and I have asked a few questions here and most of them go unreplied to, so I found another forum that is happy to help. Its just sad that ppl are like this.

General Brown...in ref to un-replied questions I am pm-ing you as to not get off topic here

I don't think it should have been squashed. I think she needs to hear all opinions. That is what foruming is about. That is why many have age limits. Why shelter her from the results of her posts? Hopefully she will learn and become a great vet tech with this memory to spur her to help others in need without judging.
B~

Well I might as well add that there could have been 3 kids & mom alive today instead of just 1 kid & the mom so I disagree that it was the best choice. I hope you are watching the doe for post kidding problems.

Claiming ignorance is unfounded as there was ample warning of probable birthing issues from many including myself. Leaving a doe who was in clear distress is not good animal stewardship-doesn't matter how old you are.
HF

That would be if we could get ahold of any vet the night that she was delivering. We couldnt get ahold of a vet for us to either take her in or have them come out. So really there couldnt have been 3 kids and a mom alive. Even when she was taken to the vet it took them a hr. to get the baby out. That is a long time.

I am not claiming ignorance. I talked to the vet I work for and several others, they all said the same thing. Just because you were right about her having dystocia that doesnt mean what I did was wrong. Even if she was taken to the vet there is no guarentee that the 2 kids would be alive anyway.

[QUOTE=HappyFarmer;4166643
Claiming ignorance is unfounded as there was ample warning of probable birthing issues from many including myself. Leaving a doe who was in clear distress is not good animal stewardship-doesn't matter how old you are.
HF[/QUOTE]

I agree, and will say that this was animal abuse/neglect pure and simple. Some of you can say what you wish about us that are pointing this out - I am hoping it will at least prevent somebody from making the same choice. I personally will never condone any abuse, animal, child or any that I see, hear of or know of, and will not sit back and say nothing about it - I just can't look the other way or try to make up some excuse for it.

This is a forum for learning, and whats wrong if maybe she should learn she made a horrible choice, or learning something that may prevent pain in the future to someone/something ? Life is tuff sometimes, sometimes you get bit and by golly sometimes you just have to pay for the choices you make- and hopefully make some changes or learn along the way.

That said...I'm done after this post - as it's pretty pointless, but I and many others here know this poor doe suffered far more than was necessary

Kiera-your age is no excuse - there is NO excuse for this. Sorry to say, but you are NOT really a vet tech and I don't just mean RVT, I know many great techs that are not RVTs - you may have a job with the label, but a real vet tech ( registered or not ) would have had more experience, common sense and morals than you had in this situation. There is always something that can be done - you just have to do it and not sit on your butt. Talking the talk without walking it...

This WAS animal abuse, you left an animal to suffer - that IS abuse and there are laws against it. You knew she was suffering, shoot I can see the legs of the stuck kid coming out of her in the pics you posted - pretty obvious there was a problem. If you couldn't get the kid out by trying so "hard" and doing "everything" you could, why in the world would you have thought she had any chance to do it herself ? Like you said, you expected her to be dead, for some reason i just don't belive you now that you are trying to make yourself sound better and justify this - again, i just hope you don't actually belive yourself and you instead take something from this.

You also did not do everything you could have. If you were not going to end her suffering or get her to a vet you should have kept working on her yourself - you don't think she was tired and frustrated-at least you didn't have to experience her pain?

If the vet got them out w/o a c-section and if you were any kind of a vet tech you should have been able to as well or at least kept trying, how do you know you couldn't have done it ? - you gave up instead

Odd, you won't abort a doe, but have no problem instead leaving her alone to suffer horrible pain while you go get comfortable because you have had enough and then just leave her to suffer ?

I too have known of women that had long hard labor, difference is it wasn't an emergency - the baby wasn't stuck, breech or dead - if that was the case they would get the care needed, not just be abandoned.

She is lucky to have lived- we all know she is just lucky. Say what you want to try to make yourself feel better... I hope it doesn't truely work and at least some guilt will stop you from letting this happen again. I do hope and pray you really did learn something from this and the doe and her doeling thrive and live a great life from here on out.

I will only respond to the bolded part. The kids legs were not coming out of the doe in any of the pictures that I posted. She hadnt even started to have the second kid when I took these. So once again you are wrong, when you think you are right. I do have a pic that I did not post of the just the legs coming out.

The legs were not far enough out that you would be able to see them without really zooming in with the camera.

I really believe everything that was needed to be said has been said, plus many remarks that were way out of line. Can we not just end this thread?
There is no further purpose in this bashing outside of ones own self satisfaction. Please...

Sigh.....

Several posts on this thread have come dangerously close to "not nice". The name calling "lazy et al" are unecessary and harmful. I will watch those that participated in the same and you will begin to rack up infractions if you repeat it.

That said, this forum is a place to ask for advice and that advice is sometimes direct and difficult to hear. If everyone is forced to soft-petal their input, more grievous mistakes can be made.

Taking the view that "what's done is done" in this case without bringing up some obvious errors could cause a subsequent reader to repeat the same errors.

I am not an expert like Vicki, Susanne and the rest but I will register my opinion on this one, as well: I would never, under any circumstances, leave an animal alone that is in a compromised position. This doe could have suffered for hours and then died. I personally believe that whether this choice was made by Keira or her family - it was obviously the wrong thing to do.

I also do not believe in owning and breeding an animal if you aren't in the financial position to provide the proper care should something go wrong. Just my opinion.

Beyond judging the action - it is nobody's right here to call Keira names or judge her motives so please refrain from such actions in the future.

My apologies that I didn't stop this thread more quickly. It did take on a life of it's own. I would hope that no harm was done, some lessons were learned (including how far is too far when registering disagreement).

Keira, my apologies if you were offended by some of the posts. On the other hand, I hope that you learned something from the exchange.

Cliff