cl injection?

angelsprite now i get the feeling you like me
still would not change my mind about my management or opinion about cl
i never had cl in my herd and i sure hope i will never have to deal with it.
i try to buy only from herd that are abscess free and even though the test is questionable, all incoming stock is tested.
i would love to see goat owners fight for one thing and for each other. but you and i know this is just a dream

__________________
Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

Susanne,
I really do dread ever seeing this or any other abscess causing organism popping up in my herd. So far, we're good, but I imagine it's only a matter of time before I will have to deal with some nasty iks in my own herd. I have 27 goats here and no hired hands. It's enough work to trim feet and groom and feed. They are a lot of fun though. I don't know what I would do without them.

It's always a good idea to try to reduce the risk of introducing any communicable disease in a herd, but every owner has to find their balance. A lot of money is going into building U.S. goat production and goat production around the world because demand is never met. There is room for increased production in dairy, meat, and fiber. For this reason, many of the problems goat raisers have faced without medical assistance in the past are now being intensely researched with the goal of reducing economic loss due to health issues. I really think, in the next 10 years, goat producers will have some of the most resilient, healthy goats ever bred available for breeding stock. There will be label dosages for goats for all the meds. New medications will come into use to treat stubborn illnesses and better information wrt nutrition will be available too.
I'm particularly interested in the work that is going at PVAM as it relates to anthelmintic resistent parasites, and the nutritional components of parasite infection in goats.
I hope we can all talk about those things some too on other threads. As Vicki said, this is a lively discussion and I never mind a lively discussion. It's better than everyone just saying hello and then signing off, for sure!

yes, this is something i totally agree with you.
i wish you luck with your herd and that you, like me, never have to deal with this disease or another zoonotic incurable disease.
as for antelmintics, as long as everybody can choose with what and how they de-worm, we will always run after the next de-wormer class. no study or research will change that.
i guess this is the price we have to pay for our freedom

__________________
Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

sorry but i want to make several more points.


#1. yes wild animals can harbor this disease. but it is not at the rate that you see it in sheep and goat herds. why? because wild animals don't eat from the same feeders, drink from the same small water trough, rub on the same fence posts and live in close quarters in barns and sheds. they are not handled by the same equipment, hauled in the same trailer as others on a regularly basis and aren't subjected to the fighting and minor injuries due to the social encounters that can be instigated by our fences and housing. they are not also regularly transported from areas of high infection to areas of low infection due to human interference. They may be potential hosts but it seems it would be rather rare for them to pass the disease on to domestic animals at anywhere near the same rate that domestic animals can pass it to other domestic animals. so yes. despite all our efforts some of our goats will turn up with cl. that is not justification for allowing such a large portion of the domestic population to harbor the disease.

#2 no, not everyone can afford to simply kill an animal that presents with a cl abcess and that is a tough situation. but they must ask themselves..."can I afford to keep this diseased animal given that it will not be as productive as it could be and that it will require ongoing veterinary intervention?" . those very people can that can ill afford to replace an animal can equally ill afford the veterinary expenses and production losses and seperate facilities to quarantine cl abcessed animals. they especially cannot afford for one sick goat to infect all their others and to suffer those losses in their whole herd! (read "I cannot afford" )If you are truly depending on 'miss. milker' or "mr. meat" for your sustenance or income or for whatever reason can't afford to replace them it is even more important that he/she be healthy. so please, kill your cl abcessed goats so they don't end up in the hands of the people that can least afford to deal with them (or give the disease to one who will) and who need the utmost health and production from them. \

ok. I am going to try not to think about this anymore.

__________________
A mystery is not an explanation..... on the contrary....no sooner is a myth forged than, in order to stand it needs another myth to support it.

DQ,
I know what you mean about not trying to think about it anymore.
I wanted to just mention though that the percentages of many diseases, including CL, in wild animals are estimated to be pretty high because those herds mate indiscriminately and just like goats, are always outside. These pyogenic bacteria don't just exist in one place and all manner of wild species carry them, so no matter where wild animals go, they will come into contact with some bacteria as a matter of course. One difference is in the concentration of the bacteria, since our domestic animals are confined to smaller spaces, concentrations can be higher. The most important difference is that wild animals are culled by nature, not man. Only the animals capable of fending off these bacteria survive to reproduce so immunity is magnified through the generations. Over the generations, the wild animals become resistent to the effects of the bacteria and some individuals will develop complete immunity, so that they never take up the bacteria. The resistent animals will often be subclinical carriers without ever showing signs of an abscess. That is the same reason goats survive it while sheep die of it. Goats have not been culled in most cultures for abscess forming bacterial infections while sheep have been culled because it compromised the wool. Sheep die of the disease BECAUSE they were culled for it for so many centuries, taking those who could have survived it out of the gene pool right along with those that couldn't. They selected for more vulnerable sheep and more virulent disease and as a result, when a sheep gets CL, it loads up with internal abscesses and dies while the goats usually just shuttle the bacteria out through an external abscess and go on to produce plenty of healthy offspring. Meantime, the sheep producers have failed to eradicate the disease in more than 100 years of documented culling, because there are so many other natural hosts, including man.
If you own a public dairy and especially one producing raw milk, you're in a pickle with CL because you can't be sure that none of your goats carry this bacteria, even if you're testing regularly. Everybody knows the tests cannot detect subclinical CL with ANY level of confidence. Rapid cooling does not eliminate the bacteria from raw milk, but it can increase the time it takes for the bacteria to multiply in the milk, keeping the concentration low enough for people's natural immune systems to prevent them contracting the disease after consuming raw milk. Interestingly, one of the points made by people who consume raw milk is that it stimulates their immune system by challenging it. Take out every challenge and they may as well be pasturizing their milk.

On your second point, there really is no evidence to suggest that CL carrying goats produce fewer offspring. As a matter of fact, if 44% of sheep carry CL, despite culling, and if the estimates of 1 in 8 goats in the U.S. carrying CL is even remotely close, yet they still produce many lambs and kids so that the population is not decreased by those percentages annually, is evidence to the contrary. If milk is your product, then you are going to cull the goat. If goat kids are your product, that is very different, which is why the dairy and meat goat producers can't agree on this subject.

I think the real debate is not whether CL goats should be culled, but whether every goat owner, whether it's a pet owner or a meat goat owner, or a backyard producer of milk for their private, personal consumption, should be held to the same standards as a public dairy. I just don't think that's possible, wise, or even reasonable. Dairy goat owners are not going to protect their herds from every disease by trying to force everyone else to operate the way they do. The only thing they are likely to accomplish is restricting and pricing themselves out of business with expensive, ever expanding government powers and foreign based industrial dairy producers just waiting to pour cheap milk on the market.
Everytime you say law, you should say, "independent producer paying the government". Everytime you say test, you should say, "Independent producer paying big pharma." Everytime you say cull, you should say, "Financial losses to the independent producer helping industrial agriculture to outcompete him." The big corporations won't be held to the same standards. They receive exemptions from government agencies and they have other profitable outlets for tainted products.
To be perfectly honest, I trust a home dairy a million times more than I trust an industrial agricultural producer. I would rather drink raw milk produced by an independent goat raiser in the US than pasturized corporate produced milk off the grocers shelf. And I don't drink ANY unpasturized milk, ever, but that's how seriously distrustful I am of the corporate food producers.

Hey folks - this is the kind of healthy contention that we like to see here.

Please be sure to avoid any personal insults.

As you were - carry on

OK, bottom line Angelsprite.

Are you willing to go buy CL positive animals for your farm? If not why not? Would it hurt sales? Would it contaminate your pastures? Your barn? Make your animals less valuable? And for the pet folks, isn't it true that eventually it will cause the animal to not live out a long happy disease free life?


Since the first question is answered NO and all the rest are yes, how can you continue justifying a position on a zoonic disease that you yourself are scared you may one day get in your goats?

From a farm who has had CL, it is nothing you would ever want. From a herd who has had CAE, it is nothing you would ever want. So please stop telling this forum that CL is no big deal and can be managed, it can't. It contaminates your land, it hurts the health of your stock, the health of future stock, it costs money, it hurts sales, it can be infective to all warm blood mammals on your property including us. And from the girl in me, it's nasty and ugly.

And....as a dairy gal, just one little tiny nitpick of your post, don't ya think since I milk my goats twice a day for 300 days I would be able to feel or see an abscess in an udder that would be able to burst in an udder to contaminate the milk? Not that either of my does back in the late 80's and early 90's who had CL ever had an abcess at udder, although I have seen a CL abscess at rear udder at a show, it burst on the doe out, not into the milk supply. Vicki

__________________
Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

Would you cull an animal automatically if it had a broken leg? Would you buy one that way? What is the difference?

A breaking CL lump would put any he-man in touch with his feminine side. It is more than nasty.

Vicki, the perceived value of an animal on a CL farm by the owner isn't reduced because they see CL as no big deal; as proffered by some posters here. They do have sales to new goat buyers and sale barns.

Some pretend that it is no different than a broke leg.

With this thread, I have revisited my stance on "fatal cull" of proved CL positive animals. I have read on the links provided. While I am saddened by having to put an animal down, as of today, there is no medical or management alternative. The priority of a responsible goat-herder is to his/her herd. A debilitating, contagious, fire-storm disease like CL should be avoided at extreme measures.

My herd will remain clinically-free of CL. AS WELL, I can't otherwise cull unless a CL + herd would take the animal.

Here's wishing for an alternative.

edited to add: Add this caveat
If my goats were not milkers; if they didn’t provide milk and potentially meat for me and my loved ones, I might hold a different position.

__________________
Paul Bridges - LaCabra Farm; Uvalda, Georgia - USA

Excellent thread!
Keep your copper levels up and you will not have any abscesses even if the disease is present in the environment. This is a resistance issue. There are MANY carriers out there and just like people with herpes the organism is stored in the system until stress allows it to overcome the immune function and manifest. It is most important to remember that someone who says 'We are CL free' only has good enough management to keep a ubiquitous organism under control.

B~

Stan honestly a shattered rear leg in an unproven buck, yes I would put him down, in a proven buck, I would pay for the surgery, a front leg I would fix myself if it wasn't compound because I don't have an xray machine, but I would be very hands-on in the fixing of it if I did opt for Texas A&M.

In your herd a broken leg may be indeed just like having a communicable zoonic disease, it is not the same in my herd. Your customers may not care that you sell goats to them, or do you not disclose this to them, that have a communicable disease.

Past your freedom of choice to do what you like on your own farm comes the responsibility as a breeder to educate new folks, and can you honestly say you recommend new folks buy goats who are CL and CAE positive? If you wouldn't go down to the auction barn and pick up a goat and bring it home and put it into your herd with an open abscess, than how can you act like it is nothing more than a broken leg?

And yes I am not naive enough...NOT to know you are just yanking my chain. Vicki

__________________
Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

Oh, lets see how to put this, I wouldnt tell some one its ok to go out and find a "partner" that has an std just because most are managable and no big deal. Quite frankly my goats are the only ones I have as much personal contact with besides my husband and I know its not something I would personally want to risk, and as some one has already said even though one is a virus and one a bacteria, CL is very much like herpies, you cant ever get rid of it if you do have it and I cant imagine why anyone would consider it worth the risk but as with herpies and aids, if everyone thought that way then those deseases wouldnt be in existance.

ken, Im rather surprized after reading your artical in Goat Rancher that you would support CL managment, theres not a goat in the world worth the risk of me getting a life long issue such as CL, and I have seen it on people its gross for lack of a better word. I know it can be managed but why?

__________________
I'm a goat person, not a people person,
De @ Udderly Southern Dairy Goats
we will be adding a new breed in the spring

Here is a picture of a buck that came from my farm. The new folks had him like 2 weeks. He got caught in the livestock wire, broke his back leg. They wrapped it. Here he is about 1 year later.



I agree with you about the auction animal. Which you already know. But we are talking about the OP in which the animal in question is a productive doe that is soon to kid.

Vicky,
Wow! Y'all have been going to town on this thread.

You had a question and you answered it for me. I never like it when people try to speak for me. I don't think you were trying to insult me and I'm not POed. But I prefer to answer for myself.
I use logical, rational analysis, observation, and research to make decisions and I usually don't make snap decisions. For this reason, I don't generally frequent auctions. Auctions are designed to create the impulse to buy. When I buy animals, I don't do it on impulse. But, I do occasionally bring home rescued animals on impulse.

I am usually very hesitant to bring home any animal that has obvious health issues of ANY kind, even though I know how to treat most of their ills and I do most of my own vet work, so cost is not the issue. The issue is my time and my responsibility to animals that I own, whether I just found them or whether I have owned them for years. I have to devote time to treating animals, so I have to know that I have the time to treat one before I take responsibility for it. When I've had the time, I've been known to bring home starving dogs, starving horses, starving goats, and more than a few animals with broken legs. I've brought home cats with feline leukemia and dogs with parvo. I've brought home two owls with broken wings and a baby possum that wasn't old enough to have hair. (He was a great pet). I brought home a starving ferret, baby wild birds that had fallen out of their nests, and a snake with a gash on it's back.
I can imagine, if the circumstances were just right, I might bring home a goat that had an abscess. That is such a small problem compared to the injuries and the really horrible communicable diseases animals can get which I would never ever knowingly bring home, like rabies, anthrax, brucellosis, or tuberculosis.
With a little education, it's possible to get really top quality animals for almost no money because others are ignorant or fearful. Their loss is my gain, but I wouldn't advise ANYONE who hasn't had a good veterinary or biomedical science education at the TAMU Vet School, to bring home a sick or injured animal. Vet bills are just out of this world right now. The owner should take responsibility for their own animal and suck up the expense of treating it or putting it down. And a sick animal may have more than one health issue at a time. The problem you see may not be the problem that could make you regret your kindness.

CL is not something we can test for so your question is not even reasonable. Everytime anyone buys a goat, they might be buying a goat that carries CL. If a goat has an abscess, without testing the contents, no one can know whether the goat has CL or whether it is one of the more than 1500 other pyogenic bacteria that can mimick CL. No one deliberately goes out to buy goat that has been exposed to CL anymore than people deliberately buy a puppy with parvo, but it happens all the time. You are trying to insinuate that there is any way to know whether you have a CL or CAE free herd and that simply is not the case. We don't have the tests to determine whether your herd is CL or CAE free so you have no way of knowing that either. By implying a guarantee that your animals are CL or CAE free, you open yourself up to liabilities that people who don't try to make such claims won't ever face.
I'll put it to you this way. You can test your herd everyday for CL and have every confidence that none of them carry the bacteria. Then you sell a goat to someone and a month or a year later, it pops out an abscess. The fact that most CL carriers have an abscess event ONLY ONCE, roughly 3 weeks after exposure to the bacteria, will likely never come out in court, because YOU don't know that. That information flies in the face of what you BELIEVE, so you won't know it to defend yourself. The people can eat the animal for dinner or keep it and say they culled it, then demand money from you. You will have to pay them and you won't want to demand the return of the goat, so it's just a total economic loss for you. That's what you set yourself up for with all these assurances that culling creates CL free herds and asserting that your herd has no CL carriers in it. You aren't "protecting" people who buy goats from you, you are arming them with leverage to use in litigation against you at the same time you are compromising your own position and deceiving both yourself and your clients. It's better to be realistic about these pyogenic bacterias and let people who buy your goats know that you do everything within your power to be sure your goats are healthy, but that there are some diseases that goats can contract and that we have no way of knowing which goats are carriers unless they actually show evidence of the disease. This would protect you and your clients could make an INFORMED DECISION on whether or not they want to buy a goat.

You keep insisting that it's your "job" to make people think like you do and about the "responsibility" to "educate" new people. Who is paying you to make everyone think exactly like you do? If you aren't getting paid for it then it isn't your job. If someone is paying you, I'd like to know the name of the company or organization. And if you want to educate people, go get a current education, a solid degree, a teaching certificate, do the thesis papers and have them accepted to float your hypotheses past peer review. Then maye, when you try to "educate" people, it won't be with information published decades ago, before anyone had a good grasp of molecular biology.

I don't mean to insult you. I am trying to make you think about other people. Other people may not be just like you. Other people may have their own goals, their own dreams, and their own problems. Other people may not be dissociated from their animals. They may not be unemotional about their animals. In fact, some people are deeply emotionally bonded to their animals so that their quality of life and possibly even their own general health could be adversely impacted by someone forcing them to "cull it with a gun" as you suggested.
Medicine, human and veterinary, are not just about treating illness. It's about TAKING CARE OF PEOPLE. And living isn't just about breathing, it's about quality of life.
I have a lot more to say on the subject and consequences of culling based on a rigid, inflexible belief system rather than sound science, but I'll post about that later.
In preparation for that, I will ask you to ponder this. Rabies is a disease that kills 100% of all the people and animals that are susceptible to it. If ever any man finds a rabid animal, it is culled immediately. This is the most effective culling program ever instituted. It includes both natural and artificial culling. If culling every animal and every person who ever gets rabies can eradicte the disease then why is the disease still so prevalent? Why isn't it gone? Every human, dog, cat, horse, cow, or goat that gets rabies dies, so why hasn't it been eradicated? Think about that and we'll talk about disease eradication and culling vs breeding for resistence next time.

I wouldn't keep a rabid dog in my back yard.
I won't keep a CL positive goat in my herd.

__________________
Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

The only thing I dont like about the whole thing is those who do not cull are basicly being called irresponsible goat owners. Now I believe that people have goats for many purposes. Some just have them as pets, some people do rescues, some show, etc. Now I have rescued goats in the past from auctions and I realize it may not be a smart choice but I do it. I am totally honest with people whom get these rescue goats and most are for brush control or for pets. I dont see killing a perfectly good animal that could make some kid or elderly person happy. I do take some back to the auction where I rescued them from but in much better condition. I dont like being called irresponsible goat owner just because I care for animals. I have no Idea if some of these animals have cl or cae but if someone wants a pet or brush control why not let the animal at least live its life it is not its fault. I think for everyones different reasoning on why they have goats they should cull or not cull depending on the indivual needs of their farm. I just read as much on the subject as I can then make my own decisions. I really appriciate this site and love all people's opinion that helps me on making my own opinion and decisions on how to proceed with my problems. Sometimes I take a little from 2 or more ppl and combine what they say and do my own thing but I love all opinions wether good or bad. I hope this reads right I suck at writing.

I will not bring CL to my farm. Because I seen it too much at other farms. It makes me vomit! I never went back because it is not right. It is not fair. Because there is so many people are so new and don't know what they are doing and dont realize that CL is very serious disease.

There is a lady who have goats from sale barn and sometimes from farm. I was touching her wether. I found abcess on his neck. I tried my best to say nicely way and she freaked out and call the vet. One vet said it is nothing. I said well your vet dont know what he is talking about. Then She talked to my vet. He said it is serious. Then took the pus and sent to UC Davis. It came as postive. And The vet wasnt at the office and asked me to help the nurses to lanced the CL. OH it make me sick. I had to clean it out and stuff. And I found out the lady let that wether SLEEP ON HER BED WITH THEM!! Very gross. I can't do that. Because what if the pus still comes out while sleeping and rub on ur face. EW! And What if her husband nicked his face from shaving and rub on the pillow. EW. That what I am saying CL is not worth it to mess with. I have to agree with Vicki and she is right that it is her job to make sure people know about CL and CAE. And now it is my job to tell others around here who dont know NOTHING about goats. I am glad that I learned a lot from HT more than Goatweb. I am glad that I met Vicki.

Vicki I want to say I am so sorry that I did agrued with you when I was newbie.. But now I see that you are right. Now I get know you more. That is all I have to say..

The only thing I dont like about the whole thing is those who do not cull are basicly being called irresponsible goat owners.
...............

Sorry Sadie if you feel like this, you can own anything you like, but to breed and then sell diseased animals yes this then becomes irresponsible. We all have seen the heartache of those who purchase animals, come to the forum with all sorts of problems with said animals, only to find out that it's because they are positive for CAE (hard udders, swollen knees, chronic pneumonia) or CL, (cough, abcess, wasteing disease). And since I answer the questions and went through this myself 25 years ago, sorry but I won't be quiet until every new person knows not to get suckered by this, hopefully before they purchase.

Angelsprite you don't know me. Give it some time, you will either lose sales in our area as people find out who you are, read your posts and warn others not to purchase from you, or you will convert, run a clean farm and guarantee the health of the stock you sell. If you stay on this forum, you will have stock for sale, others can read this info you just wrote and see that they certainly don't want to purchase from someone who treats disease as if it doesn't matter. It's also why my forum only allows those with real names, it's easy to hide behind a pseudo name with all sorts of wild ideas, certainly another to have your reputation follow you around the internet before and after sales for 23 years. The interent is pretty cool that way, nothing is a secret anymore, and slowly the numbers of those who sell stock like this diminishes because new folks are warned ahead of time.

Rescuing animals is usually not about then breeding them and selling animals out of them, so not sure how all that even applies.

"Other people may not be dissociated from their animals"

How laughable, why do women always pull out the compassion card when they are trying to make a point? You love your animals more than I do....well perhaps quality of life is more important to me than you. Goats with CAE and CL simply have less quality in their lives than goats who are clean. You can visit my updated website, lonesomedoenubians.com not sure my girls would agree with you that their owner doesn't take good care of them or has no compassion for them

You may like me do your own vetting, but having an abcess cultured at UC Davis is right over $100, nothing cheap about that (I called them to get a current price).

You won't be convincing me that I should take a more casual route to management, not when my reputation is at stake.

I do hope new folks see how management can be wildly different at farms, educate yourself.


Thanks Rose...and Stan lovely buck, but my bucks are larger than him, no way can they hold their weight on a rear leg during heavy breeding that has been broken badly...no time to play with you today Vicki

__________________
Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

I totally understand buying animals with a disease you dont want to spread. When I do rescues they are not put with my goats. I have purchased animals from "reputible breeders" (so called) and I have had serious problems. I dont want that either, however I am a sucker for animals and I do not wanna see one that is at the present time healthy just put down. I think giving them a good home until the disease is painful or harming the animal in some way, is a choice for the ones that use breeding programs to get rid of those animals, and still let them live till it is time to put down. I have a couple of goats that if they came down with something there is no way I could kill them. They are to sweet. Now I do not know much about the cae but as for cl as long as they go to someone who can have the animal taken to the vet and have the absess cut out and still go on to be a pet or brush eaters, I see nothing wrong with that. But like you said I also do not want disease as no one does that has any kind of breeding program. I just dont think that is being irresponsible, but that is my opinion that is what makes me different from anyone elese! Does not mean I am right.

Its hard to make people see the forest for the trees sometimes, I try to educate people that come into TSC that are new to goats or might care, and they think Im talking crazy or making up some wild disease. The last herd I went to wasnt thriving, and the scars and sore mouth that was running in that herd was sicking, the worst part was as that they where suckered into paying allot more than they should have and could have bought some true quality goats for that had they known what to look for. All those goats went to the auction 3 days later, skinny and sick, and still brought $75 plus each.

__________________
I'm a goat person, not a people person,
De @ Udderly Southern Dairy Goats
we will be adding a new breed in the spring