Line Breeding question

Carolyn · #21 07/22/09, 04:30 PM

I got confused--Sully was kadabras son right--then you used him to breed Ababr and Kadabra to sire their kids or was Sully sire to Abraba and Kadabra?

Cannon_Farms · #22 07/22/09, 04:48 PM

Ok, no, Im not sleepy but yes exhausted as its been a rough day.
Ok, first Im not taking either side on this issue, but will take the time to try and make it not seem like the booggie man.
Things typically go wrong with some one not knowing what is in the gene pool, granted dog and horse people have kept better records to start this than typical goat people which is why its a bit more risky in goats with very few people that can tell you mulitple generations. The great thing about goats is you dont have a great deal to worry about pass conformation, though I can see it in the future. Dog people tend to do bookoos of genetic defect screaning on their dogs as well, not something on a goat persons mind past communicable illness.
Im trying to figure out how to say this, but inbreeding and line breeding are two different things in my book, one is done with little regard to gentic structure, and isnt done on purpose or with little regard to the future and is done between any close combinations such as full brother and sisters so there is no open end on the gene pool.
Line breeding they are still close relations, typically a daughter and father or grandfather to grand daughter, ideally the person will know of any defects and be prepaird to cull if it does go wrong, and sometimes it will but allot can be learned if it does but normally the open space is enough to get what you want without some of the things that you dont. I do believe that it is vital to bring in an outcross every other generation that is either not related or not closely.
Now, there are the extream people whom ill credit with giving this practice a bad name, most of the people in the world of dog and horse shows that dont care about what they are doing to the dog as long as it looks good, and the day that happens in goats will be the day I hang up on that as well.
Anyone that disvalues the bennifit of line breeding is missing out on the understanding of what a great usefull tool it can be, and if you think about it, its really the way nature intends things to be. There are very few pack/herd animals if any that will not have the same dominate male for several years and often will breed the daughters, even in wolf packs if the alpha dog gets killed, i guarantee you that the chances of some line/in breeding there will take place. With age or injury is the only door for new genetics to take place more often that not.
With breeding unrealated animals with no strong back ground history you just turn the gene pool into a ocean and its totally up to chance on what you get, personally I like the odds of knowing what Im going to get, however if I dont truely know what i have then Im no better off and taking more risk by linebreeding.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #23 07/22/09, 10:55 PM

Few to any goats are used heavily enough to prove or disprove thier genetic potential to the breed as a whole. I linebreed, I wouldn't own a buck who didn't share genes with the animals I breed to. Outcrossing is the fastest way to build a herd of mediocre goats. You certainly can not breed for consistancy. In all breedings you have to be willing to cull, even in completely unrealted animals, or even breeding two unrelated breeds together you will get faults you cull for. To say that linebreeding gives you sickly stock just shows how someone doesn't know about genetics.

I routinely breed a buck back to his daughter/s, this shows you very quickly the recessive genes he may carry......this way I learn very quickly within his 2nd year of breeding on my farm if I want to continue to linebreed down into him or sell him.

If your only goal on your farm is to get your does in milk, than who you use on kids destined for meat is meaningless. If your goals are otherwise than yes spend some time figuring out who has a buck that can improve your goats. It takes alot of breeding to have dams on your place worthy enough to even keep a buck out of when trying to really improve your stock. Vicki

Backfourty,MI. · #24 07/23/09, 12:12 PM

I had always heard that it was OK to breed Mother to son & father to dausghter, etc. But not to breed full brother & sister(by full I mean the same mother & father).

HomegrownAcres · #25 07/23/09, 02:36 PM

Jack Mauldin has a good explanation of breeding strategies at his site: http://www.jackmauldin.com/management/breeding.htm

Brian
Homegrown Acres
HomegrownAcres.com

smwon · #26 07/23/09, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Few to any goats are used heavily enough to prove or disprove thier genetic potential to the breed as a whole. I linebreed, I wouldn't own a buck who didn't share genes with the animals I breed to. Outcrossing is the fastest way to build a herd of mediocre goats. You certainly can not breed for consistancy. In all breedings you have to be willing to cull, even in completely unrealted animals, or even breeding two unrelated breeds together you will get faults you cull for. To say that linebreeding gives you sickly stock just shows how someone doesn't know about genetics.

I routinely breed a buck back to his daughter/s, this shows you very quickly the recessive genes he may carry......this way I learn very quickly within his 2nd year of breeding on my farm if I want to continue to linebreed down into him or sell him.

If your only goal on your farm is to get your does in milk, than who you use on kids destined for meat is meaningless. If your goals are otherwise than yes spend some time figuring out who has a buck that can improve your goats. It takes alot of breeding to have dams on your place worthy enough to even keep a buck out of when trying to really improve your stock. Vicki

Thank you Vicki! I was wondering about this myself and had read some of the pros and cons of linebreeding. Now I feel a little more comfortable in doing so.

hoofinitnorth · #27 07/23/09, 07:08 PM

Unless you're dealing with a limited gene pool anyway, which, by comparison, the NDs are pretty limited in America.

Linebreeding, if done carefully, as others said, is a very good way to quickly improve your herd, BUT outcrossing is extremely valuable. Once again, you have to select carefully.

The more you know about the lines you're breeding, the better chance you will have at choosing wisely and seeing the desired results.

Notice I said *chance*.

Cannon_Farms · #28 07/23/09, 08:13 PM

Vickey, your so much better at putting what needs to be into words than I am, thank you.

Mary Cody · #29 07/23/09, 08:41 PM

Thank you, Vicki, I am breeding to improve my herd not just to get my does in milk. I am pretty sure that breeding this buckling back to his mom will give me exceptional kids. Everyone that sees him wants him, he is SO nice. The dam is very nice and I believe they will cross well. We will see. This has been very informative. Thanks everyone.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #30 07/24/09, 12:03 AM

Linebreeding, if done carefully, as others said, is a very good way to quickly improve your herd, BUT outcrossing is extremely valuable.
...............

With the genetics we studied in Breed Standard when accepting ND into ADGA, I wouldn't think you would have enough diversity to really outcross. Certainly like Obies, a breed that could have used many more generations of Americans bred up before closing herd books.

You really ought to read some of Tim Pruitt's post on my forum dairygoatinfo.com on breeding. Even an outcross that appears to be so, on first glance, if he doesn't also carry some genes to your original stock, it's pretty much a wasted breeding. Even then it's usually only done to get a buck out of your best line-bred doe, the outcross buck is ditched and this son is then used heavily in the herd to prove him. Usually with bucklings out of your best does sold into herds who will also prove him with similar lines.

You want the does and bucks in your herd to be related to a prepotent dam or sire line...if the dam or sire line is from an animal on your farm...your blessed. Vicki

hoofinitnorth · #31 07/24/09, 05:10 PM

Yes, as I said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoofinitnorth

Unless you're dealing with a limited gene pool anyway, which, by comparison, the NDs are pretty limited in America.

I have a particular line that I ADORE and will continue to try to increase in my herd. I have a few animals in that line now, but they are more distant from the characteristics I really admired in the older generations than I want. So far, I've retained the doe I have that is farthest back in the line, her son from 2007, her daughter from 2008, a niece from 2008, two daughters from 2009, a grand-daughter from 2008, a grand-son from 2008, and grand-daughter from 2009, and soon several great-grand-kids in 2009 (I also have a son from 2008 and two sons from 2009 but they're wethers-to-be and I never used them). With this doe and her newer generations, I see different things, many of which I like (obviously), but I want to get back to the older generations that even preceded this doe.

And I'm lucky. There is a fabulous 11-year-old from this line local to me. 14 freshenings and that udder is still sucked up tight into that escutcheon and plenty capacious. What I love the most about her is her dairy character as you just don't see that build often in this breed these days, even on the more refined does. That loin is to DIE for. This doe was so well-liked by her current owner, that she was sent up here as a 9-year-old, bred.

Needless to say, I'm buying kids from her, maybe even a buck. I actually bought a daughter out of her last year but I had to put her down this spring after she developed a weird hernia that we could not repair. I tried to buy a really amazing buckling out of her this year, but there was a miscommunication and he went to another farm while I was trying to call the breeder. *sigh* I won't let THAT happen again!!!