How many of you don't intervene

Patt · #61 04/09/09, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernie

I believe that so much of the necessity for intervention in birthing goats is actually CAUSED by the high level of intervention. Weak does or weak kids are saved and thus go on to propagate the genetics that caused them to be weak in the first place. If we keep it up, then goats in the future are going to be similar to chickens in that 90% of them aren't capable at concluding the reproductive process, either by hatching or birthing and raising their own young. This goes for bottle-feeding as well. I've not seen a study on this, but my hunch is that bottle-fed does have a much lower success rate in successfully nursing their own kids.

That said, goats aren't cheap and I don't want to let one die on me if it can be saved. If I've got to pull a kid once in three seasons then I won't complain too much. Life isn't perfect. But if I have a doe that needs intervention every single year, then I'm going to eat her. Not sell her, because I don't want her genetics out there in the world.

Too many people don't understand animal husbandry. If you buy a goat and breed it, then you are making a COMMITMENT to the entire species and every goatherder from now until the end of the world. That commitment is that you will only maintain and propagate valuable genetics and that you will preserve the traits that make goats useful to human beings. If a person doesn't understand that, be it cows, goats, dogs, sheep, or chickens, then I don't think they need to be in the animal husbandry business.

I didn't read this full thread, so don't anyone get too offended and think I'm singling them out. I'm not. The above comments are just how I feel about the industry in general, not in reference to any of you.

Great post and I agree with you.

Ernie · #62 04/09/09, 01:13 PM

I do not consider checking for proper presentation to be "intervention" any more than I consider taking a doe in labor and putting her in the birthing stall in the barn to be intervention. Do I often do it? No. For the most part my does drop kids before I can even make it to the barn. I've eaten all the problematic ones and I'm waiting for the next generation to reach breeding age.

If I can see there's a problem will I intervene to keep the doe and kids from dying? Yes. Definitely. But they go on my "do not breed" list and will probably be in my freezer as soon as everyone has put on enough weight.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #63 04/09/09, 02:42 PM

The difference illustrated by Jo here is why I don't blink an eye about helping with bad presentations but I won't breed a doe that is prone to prolapse or too narrow in the pelvis to pass a kid on her own and needs a c-section. ...............
...................

but of narrow in the pelvis and prone to prolapse, only the narrow pelvis is a hereitable condition in goats. A doe kid can be culled for being too narrow before she is bred. Prolapse in dairy goats is not like it is in sheep. It is rarely hereditary and is nearly always mangement that includes obesse goats or breeding to bucks that throw extemely large kids.

C sections in goats are nearly always caused by exactly the thing we are talking about, not interveening with a simple pelvic as the doe starts to kid, you have a trainwreck that you can't untangle, by the time a vet is called its unmanageable except with a C section....a vet will not do a standing (local anesthetic-lidocain around the incision area) section, insists on putting the doe out, the doe does poorly with the anesthetic and dies. Vicki

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #64 04/09/09, 02:47 PM

Ernie, but with nearly every birthing problem I can even think of caused by human intervention to begin with, too fat does, emaciated does, pets kept for breeding stock, lack of calcium, lack of energy, not understanding vitmains and minerals, the breeding of very young doe kids by their brothers, breeding bucks who throw very large kids to your FF and does locked in kidding stalls for weeks (is she in labor isn't she in labor) with no exercise.

There is very little that is actually hereitable that would cause a problem at kidding time. So in reality what you should be doing is killing the owner and giving the goats to someone else to manage them better!

99% is management. Vicki

Ernie · #65 04/09/09, 05:01 PM

Environment versus heredity. It's an age-old conflict that maybe a geneticist can untangle, but I can't.

I'll stick to my rule just in case it really is heredity. Keep the ones that birth well consistently, cull the ones that don't.

hoofinitnorth · #66 04/09/09, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

but of narrow in the pelvis and prone to prolapse, only the narrow pelvis is a hereitable condition in goats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Prolapse in dairy goats is not like it is in sheep. It is rarely hereditary and is nearly always mangement that includes obesse goats or breeding to bucks that throw extemely large kids.

How do we know this? At this point, I would not rebreed a doe that has had a major prolapse and I would worry (maybe needlessly) about her daughters and her sons passing it on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

A doe kid can be culled for being too narrow before she is bred.

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

C sections in goats are nearly always caused by exactly the thing we are talking about, not interveening with a simple pelvic as the doe starts to kid, you have a trainwreck that you can't untangle, by the time a vet is called its unmanageable except with a C section....a vet will not do a standing (local anesthetic-lidocain around the incision area) section, insists on putting the doe out, the doe does poorly with the anesthetic and dies. Vicki

Very possible. In reference to Ernie's comments, my comments to agree with Jo were related: there is a difference between prevention by management and prevention by selective breeding. Ernie seems to agree.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #67 04/09/09, 06:02 PM

A prolapse of what, the vagina, the anus, the uterus? If it's caused by you, and not hereitable than why would you worry about her daughter?

Alot of prolapse is sheep is do to tail docking, and we also know that once a uterus prolapses and is put back cleanly, it is actually adhered by adhesions and is in there stronger than before, so why not rebreed?

Really a non issue in that it is a rare occurance in goats anyway.

Ernie agrees...shares your opinon. It certainly is not based in fact.

Can you even think of anything but poor conformation in the does pelvis that leads to kidding difficulties that aren't management based? So culling is futile when it's the management that should be changed, not the doe and her kids killed. Right? Vicki

ozark_jewels · #68 04/09/09, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pony

Okay, now I'm getting nervous...

Emily, do you want to come and live with us a few weeks/months until the goats settle in? And could you come back when Troubles freshens?

Oh, man....

LOL!! You will hear way more birthing problem stories by being on this forum than you will ever experience yourself. We hear about all the problem births but relatively few of the normal average birthings. And with just one or two kiddings per year, you won't have much chance for anything to go wrong.

So go into it with the awareness that things could always go wrong, but they are unlikely to. And *do* check for two feet and a nose as soon as you can.

I have dealt with more problem birthings than many for the simple reason that I have had more birthings than the average person on this forum. Dealing with 150 does kidding in a season, the odds are good that I will have a few malpresentations. Only about 40 birthings a year now, thank goodness! So the people who have a lot of goats will see a few more problem kiddings for the simple reason that they get more chances at it.

I also get called by people who have problem kiddings and have little experience with them. Those are usually the worst to untangle because the owner usually waits too long to call me, or else in the time between the call and when I got there, the doe had pushed the kids into a worse mess.
Sometimes I can just talk them through going in themselves and untangling the mess.
That happened this year with a new goat owner who is a neighbor. She had bought a bred doe from me last fall. She called me at 11:00 one night to say that the doe had a single buck and no signs of any more kids, though it had been an hour. The description she gave of the doe did not sound like she was through. I talked her through going in(her first time ever), and she found two doelings who were both trying to come at once. She untangled them and out they came, healthy and strong. Such a good experience for her.

Ernie · #69 04/09/09, 07:19 PM

Well, there's physical problems such as pelvis size or uterine presentation, but there's also a general vigor that some animals have and some animals don't. I've seen undersized does their first time kidding just walk in from some isolated location in the back forty with three kids following. They birthed out in the wild somewhere unattended and with no trouble at all, and they'll do it consistently every year afterwards. And then I've seen big healthy animals lay down in a heated, pampered stall and die giving birth to a single baby and you never can figure out what went wrong.

Genetically, how do you quantify that? It's got to be genetic somehow because they do it consistently, their offspring do it in their turn, and even the bucks they throw seem to sire daughters who will do it. And the experienced eye can spot them in a herd as well. They stand out.

I have no patience for hothouse flowers. I need vigorous, robust livestock that throw vigorous, robust offspring. That said, as Vicki pointed out, these are opinions. I certainly can't back them up with medical fact or scientific studies. Nothing but a couple of generations of goat lore learned at the feet of South Texas goatherders. The livestock needs in that part of the country are rigorous to say the least and the opinions are not shared by everyone in all parts of the world.

ozark_jewels · #70 04/09/09, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernie

And then I've seen big healthy animals lay down in a heated, pampered stall and die giving birth to a single baby and you never can figure out what went wrong.

That is the perfect description of management-caused kidding problems. And yes, I've seen it too. In those cases, its not the goat at fault, its the owner.
*Sometimes* it is not management, granted. I just butchered a doe who consistently had non-viable kids or very hard labours. And what a beautiful doe she was too.
But your description perfectly fits management problems.

pokyone42 · #71 04/09/09, 11:31 PM

Well, here is my opinion. I had to help 5 of our 16 does with kidding this year. (I had only ever helped 3 in my history! IT WAS SCAREY! But it was successful, I am happy to report. )
BUT>>>>>>>>
If I had not helped them give birth, then our statistics of losses would probably be at, or above the "normal" range of what is it? 25%? (That is a totally unacceptable percentage here on our farm, period. Even if it is 10%....... that is tooooooo much, period!)

We had 3 sets of triplets, (and a few sets of twins,) who were hopelessly tangled. The first set, I waited and hoped, until I absolutely KNEW there was a problem. ( I suspected alot sooner than I intervened, but was trying to let "Nature, take it's course.") A HUGE MISTAKE!

I finally (after an hour) reached in and felt a tail-first kid. I got the rear legs into position, and got him out. A PERFECT kid.......except that I waited too long to intervene. He was dead. I did everything I could to bring him back.......It did not work.

Fortunately, his brother and sister were just fine, (after I dragged them out kicking and screaming, although they were stressed badly,) and they are now six weeks old and doing great!.

IF I had waited longer to intervene, little Fillis and Ivan would have also been dead, along with their brother, and possibly mama-goat..., she probably would have died too, had I let "nature take it's course". (I will mention here, that after that incident, we did not wait any longer with other does, and all kids were born fine, and mamma-goats were fine as well. -Thanks to Vicki, and the forum!)

Well, as much as I like nature, and want our goats to live as natural as possible, they cannot, and do not. The goats that we have today, have pretty much been manufactured by people... They just are not bred to live according to "Nature's laws."
And so, it is MY responsibility to care for them, and to help them when they are in trouble, as they do NOT live in "nature." Had we let "nature take it's course" this year, we easily would have lost 5 does, and all of their precious goat-children. We would have lost roughly one/third of our herd. No! That is NOT allowed here. I would MUCH rather intervene, than gamble on losing babies and moms..........That is JMHO.

Ernie · #72 04/10/09, 07:34 AM

I don't think my argument should be perceived as doing things "naturally". This is a domesticated animal. Nature has nothing to do with it. My argument has to do with our good stewardship in improving the breed.

Each situation is different and any one of us holding up a particularly scenario is pointless. We only have a few text words to judge. We can't see the animal, feel the animal, understand its history, or watch it giving birth. Only the owner can do that.

chamoisee · #73 04/10/09, 10:53 AM

I actually think that some of the problems in birthing are due to to trend for breeding very large goats. When you breed for size and stature, and the doe is avergae sized, and her kid turns out to be a single, that can be trouble, even if the doe is strong and hardy and usually kids normally. "Too big" is too big, no matter how you cut it.

My understanding is that some formerly very popular A.I. bucks dropped in popularity because they consistently sired 13-15# kids. Not many does, from any breeding program or management strategy, can birth a single 15# kid without intervention.

dosthouhavemilk · #74 04/10/09, 11:25 AM

I finally have a little bit of spare time to add my take.
We've been raising goats for around 11 years now. Kidding out does for 9 of those 11 years.
For the first, oh, 5 or 6 years, the does were left to kid at the goat pen. We'd go down and find kids on the ground. In a couple of cases with no clue the doe was even pregnant. Thinking back, I can think of one case, where if I had known better, we probably would not have lost triplet doelings. My guess is the first doeling (that was finally delivered dead) was in a bad presentation. The mother finally got her out and the two that followed were weak and both dead in 24 hours. This was in 2002. I had left her be since she was taking so long. I didn't know any better. That was out of 24 kids that year. We did not lose a doe to a bad kidding until our 173rd delivery last year. We haven't lost one since either and are well over 200 kiddings under out belt now. That one was bad. I thought the doe was in labor but she was not progressing so I checked...and misunderstood what I was feeling. Two days later, I gave her Lute to dialate her, spent five hours trying to pull a decomposing kid out of her and finally the vet got the kid out after an hour of her trying as well. The doe passed that night. She had spit twins out the year prior as a yearling from the same buck with no issues.
In those first 5 or 6 years we ended up with a couple of bottle babies (some due to a doe whose teates were too bulbous and some due to kids being born in January). The daughter of the too bulbous teated doe has great teats and her daughters are even more improved.
Last year, or maybe it was the year prior, I started pulling doelings to be raised on strict CAE prevention. This means I need to be there for the births. Not because the does can't kid on their own, but because I want to be there to raise healthy breeding does for other people and myself. As well as, the rare buck that is requested.
The does are brought up to the cow barn when they are within three weeks of freshening. I hand breed for December/January due dates and then pen breed with marking harnesses for March-May dates.
I check ligaments, udders, etc, when the does ar fed their grain once a day. They have a nice little hill to climb to get to their hay and they are kept well exercised. When a doe appears to be in early stages of labor, she is put into a kidding pen. For the most part, they kid on my schedule (thanks to the feeding schedule). I can look at a doe and know she will be kidding today, or by the latest tomorrow. In January, there are does (expecially first timers) that end up put up into kidding pens even if they aren't in obvious labor. FF are more likely to kid out in the snow than in the bar, so it is in their best interest to be locked up away from the older does.
I check for presentation. I sooth the doe. This is my chance to bond with that doe. Especially first timers. The kids head is wiped clean as it is born. Gender checked. Bucks are pulled up next to the mother's head and I wait for the next kid. Doelings are whicked away to be dried off and plunked in the tub to be taken to the house for their colostrum. I stick around until the doe is done. She is given her warm water and maybe a bite of hay. They are usually intent on cleaning that kid though. Any doelings are taken to the house, fed their colostrum, settled in and then I return to the barn. (usually about half an hour later). The does teats are cleared of the plugs. If the kid doesn't appear to have nursed yet, I hold them up and make sure they latch on and get a good drink.
Coming from a dairy cow perspective and knowing how vital that colostrum is, I don't feel bad about making sure that kid recieves that colostrum within the first little bit. That kid's quality of life depends on it.
I miss some kidding severy year. We kidded out 28 does last year and I think I missed about 5 or so kiddings. Some I knew were going to kid and I went to the house for half an hour and came back to twin bucks on the ground. Some I missed the first delivery but was present for the second. Train wrecks aren't real common here. High multiples aren't either, so there isn't as much risk. I'll help if a leg needs to come forward, but for the most part, I am there because I really enjoy it. The does are left to labor as long as they are progressing. I did have a 9 year old doe last year that had a very stalled delivery. I did go in and help her contractions along for her triplet doelings. In retrospect, a little calcium, would have gone a long way for her. She is 10 now and due in May. Other than that and the decomposing kid, I can't really think of any really nightmarish deliveries last year.
We have freshened 32 so far this year. More triplets this year than last. I've missed about 3 or 4 deliveries so far.
Monday was probably the worst delivery I've dealt with besides the decomposing kid. Zsa-Zsa was laying outside blubbering and I realized she was in labor. I brought her in and watched her for a little bit. She pushed and pushed and I checked presentation. Head and one front leg. I guieded the other front leg forward and she eased him on out. The second kid, however, peaked out with an upside down head....and that was all. Managed to get his front legs out and then the hind legs pulled forward and along the sides of the body for delivery. He is doing fine now. Had I not been there, we could easily have lost the doe and the kid(s). So 3-4 assists out of 60 freshenings....
WE also had our first experience with a partial vaginal prolapse this year. A 7 year old 7th freshener had a slight prolapse about 3 weeks out. Within a week of kidding it got worse. When she went into delivery I had to go in and manipulate the vaginal lining down and out of the way so her single buck kid could be delivered. She has returned to normal. I will definitely be rebreeding her this summer. I will also rebreed her to the same buck. My guess is the two bohemouth bucks she had last year did not help her reporductive tract, as this years buckling was quite small in comparison. Her daughters have been fine and her dam, at 9 has never showed a problem either.
We are expecting about 35-40 more deliveries before the end of July. I plan to be in attendance of as many of those as possible. I will check initial presentation on every one that I attend.

My does are capable of kidding on their own with little to no trouble, but I want to be there and experience the joy of birth, and my management style means I need to be there.
Those bottle babies? I've never had any trouble with bottle babies not taking to their kids and motherhood with ease. I have had more issues with some dam raised kids, then I have with my bottle babies. One of the reasons I work so hard to raise bottle kids is so their new owners don't have to worry about being there for the delivery. They can come home to find kids on the ground, cleaned up, nursed and healthy.

I'm not quite in Emily's realm yet (especially in the experience with difficult kiddings yet) but at some point I hope to be there. I don't get called with bad kiddings, because the does I sell kid just fine for their new owners when they follow the advice I provide on health and exercise prior to kidding. I am on call, however, during kidding season and am aware of when other people's does are due to kid.

I freely admit to intervening with the "natural" process, except those does still deliver their kids on their own for the most part, and they still raise kids (though a number are raising foster kids this year). I intervened the minute I purchased domesticated goats.
I truly believe that my does could kid easily without me there, I simply chose to share the joy of birth with them.

TennesseeMama23 · #75 04/10/09, 12:49 PM

Just wanted to say I really enjoyed reading your post!

Quote:

Originally Posted by dosthouhavemilk

I finally have a little bit of spare time to add my take.
We've been raising goats for around 11 years now. Kidding out does for 9 of those 11 years.
For the first, oh, 5 or 6 years, the does were left to kid at the goat pen. We'd go down and find kids on the ground. In a couple of cases with no clue the doe was even pregnant. Thinking back, I can think of one case, where if I had known better, we probably would not have lost triplet doelings. My guess is the first doeling (that was finally delivered dead) was in a bad presentation. The mother finally got her out and the two that followed were weak and both dead in 24 hours. This was in 2002. I had left her be since she was taking so long. I didn't know any better. That was out of 24 kids that year. We did not lose a doe to a bad kidding until our 173rd delivery last year. We haven't lost one since either and are well over 200 kiddings under out belt now. That one was bad. I thought the doe was in labor but she was not progressing so I checked...and misunderstood what I was feeling. Two days later, I gave her Lute to dialate her, spent five hours trying to pull a decomposing kid out of her and finally the vet got the kid out after an hour of her trying as well. The doe passed that night. She had spit twins out the year prior as a yearling from the same buck with no issues.
In those first 5 or 6 years we ended up with a couple of bottle babies (some due to a doe whose teates were too bulbous and some due to kids being born in January). The daughter of the too bulbous teated doe has great teats and her daughters are even more improved.
Last year, or maybe it was the year prior, I started pulling doelings to be raised on strict CAE prevention. This means I need to be there for the births. Not because the does can't kid on their own, but because I want to be there to raise healthy breeding does for other people and myself. As well as, the rare buck that is requested.
The does are brought up to the cow barn when they are within three weeks of freshening. I hand breed for December/January due dates and then pen breed with marking harnesses for March-May dates.
I check ligaments, udders, etc, when the does ar fed their grain once a day. They have a nice little hill to climb to get to their hay and they are kept well exercised. When a doe appears to be in early stages of labor, she is put into a kidding pen. For the most part, they kid on my schedule (thanks to the feeding schedule). I can look at a doe and know she will be kidding today, or by the latest tomorrow. In January, there are does (expecially first timers) that end up put up into kidding pens even if they aren't in obvious labor. FF are more likely to kid out in the snow than in the bar, so it is in their best interest to be locked up away from the older does.
I check for presentation. I sooth the doe. This is my chance to bond with that doe. Especially first timers. The kids head is wiped clean as it is born. Gender checked. Bucks are pulled up next to the mother's head and I wait for the next kid. Doelings are whicked away to be dried off and plunked in the tub to be taken to the house for their colostrum. I stick around until the doe is done. She is given her warm water and maybe a bite of hay. They are usually intent on cleaning that kid though. Any doelings are taken to the house, fed their colostrum, settled in and then I return to the barn. (usually about half an hour later). The does teats are cleared of the plugs. If the kid doesn't appear to have nursed yet, I hold them up and make sure they latch on and get a good drink.
Coming from a dairy cow perspective and knowing how vital that colostrum is, I don't feel bad about making sure that kid recieves that colostrum within the first little bit. That kid's quality of life depends on it.
I miss some kidding severy year. We kidded out 28 does last year and I think I missed about 5 or so kiddings. Some I knew were going to kid and I went to the house for half an hour and came back to twin bucks on the ground. Some I missed the first delivery but was present for the second. Train wrecks aren't real common here. High multiples aren't either, so there isn't as much risk. I'll help if a leg needs to come forward, but for the most part, I am there because I really enjoy it. The does are left to labor as long as they are progressing. I did have a 9 year old doe last year that had a very stalled delivery. I did go in and help her contractions along for her triplet doelings. In retrospect, a little calcium, would have gone a long way for her. She is 10 now and due in May. Other than that and the decomposing kid, I can't really think of any really nightmarish deliveries last year.
We have freshened 32 so far this year. More triplets this year than last. I've missed about 3 or 4 deliveries so far.
Monday was probably the worst delivery I've dealt with besides the decomposing kid. Zsa-Zsa was laying outside blubbering and I realized she was in labor. I brought her in and watched her for a little bit. She pushed and pushed and I checked presentation. Head and one front leg. I guieded the other front leg forward and she eased him on out. The second kid, however, peaked out with an upside down head....and that was all. Managed to get his front legs out and then the hind legs pulled forward and along the sides of the body for delivery. He is doing fine now. Had I not been there, we could easily have lost the doe and the kid(s). So 3-4 assists out of 60 freshenings....
WE also had our first experience with a partial vaginal prolapse this year. A 7 year old 7th freshener had a slight prolapse about 3 weeks out. Within a week of kidding it got worse. When she went into delivery I had to go in and manipulate the vaginal lining down and out of the way so her single buck kid could be delivered. She has returned to normal. I will definitely be rebreeding her this summer. I will also rebreed her to the same buck. My guess is the two bohemouth bucks she had last year did not help her reporductive tract, as this years buckling was quite small in comparison. Her daughters have been fine and her dam, at 9 has never showed a problem either.
We are expecting about 35-40 more deliveries before the end of July. I plan to be in attendance of as many of those as possible. I will check initial presentation on every one that I attend.

My does are capable of kidding on their own with little to no trouble, but I want to be there and experience the joy of birth, and my management style means I need to be there.
Those bottle babies? I've never had any trouble with bottle babies not taking to their kids and motherhood with ease. I have had more issues with some dam raised kids, then I have with my bottle babies. One of the reasons I work so hard to raise bottle kids is so their new owners don't have to worry about being there for the delivery. They can come home to find kids on the ground, cleaned up, nursed and healthy.

I'm not quite in Emily's realm yet (especially in the experience with difficult kiddings yet) but at some point I hope to be there. I don't get called with bad kiddings, because the does I sell kid just fine for their new owners when they follow the advice I provide on health and exercise prior to kidding. I am on call, however, during kidding season and am aware of when other people's does are due to kid.

I freely admit to intervening with the "natural" process, except those does still deliver their kids on their own for the most part, and they still raise kids (though a number are raising foster kids this year). I intervened the minute I purchased domesticated goats.
I truly believe that my does could kid easily without me there, I simply chose to share the joy of birth with them.

ozark_jewels · #76 04/10/09, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dosthouhavemilk

I'm not quite in Emily's realm yet......

Sure you are.....or mighty close.

I only kidded out 150 does for three years. Before and after that it was only 40-60 per season.

Good post.

dosthouhavemilk · #77 04/10/09, 01:40 PM

Heh, the most we kidded out before a few years ago was 12 goats. 50 really doesn't seem like much more work than 12 though...just a longer kidding season.

I forgot to add that it is always dealt with on a case by case basis as far as how hands on I am with a doe. Gisella, a yearling NuTogg, delivered a couple of mornings ago. She was very panicky, so I gave her plenty of space. I check presentation and then left her alone and finished feeding the other does. I did not go back into the pen until she was down and the nose was presented. I went into the pen and sootherd her. Cleaned the kids head, saw it was a buck, pulled it up next to her face and left her alone again. It took her about 15 minutes before she started cleaning him. About ten minutes more she was up and I unplugged the teats and went to the house to go to bed, as it was 4AM. Dad was back down milking cows around 8AM and the kid was busily nursing.
Crowding her would have interefered too much with her bonding process. The majority of the does, however, do not have a problem with me being in the pen.

hoofinitnorth · #78 04/13/09, 03:30 PM

My comment on prolapse was a bad example. Stick with the easy one, pelvic width.

Anyway, Ernie, I know what you mean about "some does". I have a girl that has delivered twice without any trouble whatsoever. Last year twins, this year quads. All live births, all healthy. Now that's just two years of her six kiddings, but the breeder tells me she has always been this way. She is an easy birther and I love her for it (among other things).

I have another doe who last year delivered triplets unassisted. This year she had quads and needed help arranging them. She actually looked smaller this year than last but again, all live, all healthy, all very big babies (I posted their birth weights in their announcement here, total of 12.0 pounds of babies in this ND, not counting birthing fluids & tissues.

I have another doe that had no trouble with twins last year but had a heckuva time with twins this year. I had to help and she still had a touch-n-go week after that. She's fine now.

The fourth doe is a first-freshener and she delivered twins on her own.

Last year I had another doe (whom I lost early this year to a freak aortic aneurysm) who delivered triplets. She needed a little help getting started as the first one was presenting back first. Once I rearranged the first one, she popped the other two out.

So there are my anecdotes to date. I hope all my future freshening girls take after the first doe! With any luck I'll be freshening her daughter in July so we shall see!

chamoisee · #79 04/13/09, 03:39 PM

I have never seen a prolapse in a goat before, after having literally hundreds of them. I don't think they're that common. Other than the one mentioned here, have only heard of one other, and that was because a teenage punk was banging the poor (pregnant) doe unbeknownst to the owner! :evil:

hoofinitnorth · #80 04/13/09, 03:48 PM

Ew.

I have seen a partial prolapse but it was caught so early and pushed back in (while second kid was coming out), that we could not determine if it was vaginal or uterine.

My local mentors have seen a handful over their years. One has had a doe that did it every year. She put her down. This doe's buck apparently has had daughters that have done the same (in different herds/different management). My understanding is the does prolapsed with no intervention on the part of any humans. I believe they were uterine prolapses.

Anyway, moot discussion now.