How many of you don't intervene

AshleyB · #41 04/07/09, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helianthus

I was thinking some more about this. I wonder if some people relate to a goat's labor the way we do human labors. 8 hours of pushing wouldn't be that unusual for a human, but would signal real trouble for a goat, and being in labor all day and night in a human would be fairly normal, but would mean disaster, give up and die, for a goat.

Sorry to disagree, but 8 hours of pushing in a human labor absolutely would signal trouble, and it is very doubtful that any O.B. or midwife would allow that to happen. You are right that a human being in labor for 24 hours does happen and is okay, but 2 hours of pushing is thought to be on the high end, and I don't think it often goes over three hours. In a hospital it is doubtful it would ever go beyond 2 hours before major intervention occurred. I've birthed my last three at home, and my pushing at home has never lasted more than 5 minutes, but my midwife would never ever allow me to go beyond 3 hours of pushing.

hoofinitnorth · #42 04/07/09, 12:02 PM

I read something somewhere when I first started reading about goats (probably at least 6 years ago now, maybe as long as 12 years when they first piqued my interest) that said that just being present to help with bad presentations cuts mortality by 80%. I haven't looked for that quote again so I can't tell you if it came from a reliable source or not, but it is something that stuck with me, regardless.

shiandpete.1 · #43 04/07/09, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshleyB

Sorry to disagree, but 8 hours of pushing in a human labor absolutely would signal trouble, and it is very doubtful that any O.B. or midwife would allow that to happen. You are right that a human being in labor for 24 hours does happen and is okay, but 2 hours of pushing is thought to be on the high end, and I don't think it often goes over three hours. In a hospital it is doubtful it would ever go beyond 2 hours before major intervention occurred. I've birthed my last three at home, and my pushing at home has never lasted more than 5 minutes, but my midwife would never ever allow me to go beyond 3 hours of pushing.

I think it is awesome that you had your babies at home and I do agree that the doctores would have intervened after 2 to 2 1/2 hours of pushing.

BothFeet · #44 04/07/09, 12:51 PM

I'm a non intervener mostly. I've also had mostly good luck. I have had about 30 births in my herd and only witnessed one. We check and check and always try to be there, but the mommas always manage to sneak them out when we are not looking. We go out to the pen and there is a momma with shiny new babies.

The first year I had ten kids born and one kid who would not nurse or respond to mom. We attempted to help her nurse and tried the bottle and warming her all night but she died before morning.

The next year I went to the store and came back to find a mom licking away at 3 healthy kids with one dead a few feet away. I don't know if I could have helped with that. All other kids that year were born healthy and while I wasn't looking.

Twice I have had kids that had bad tendons and needed their front legs splinted for several days. They look like cute little Forrest Gumps running around

BothFeet · #45 04/07/09, 12:53 PM

I'm a non intervener mostly but I would intervene or call out a vet if I needed too. I've also had mostly good luck. I have had about 30 births in my herd and only witnessed one. We hover around and check and check and always try to be there, but the mommas always manage to sneak them out when we are not looking. We go out to the pen and there is a momma with shiny new babies.

The first year I had ten kids born and one kid who would not nurse or respond to mom. We attempted to help her nurse and tried the bottle and warming her all night but she died before morning.

The next year I went to the store and came back to find a mom licking away at 3 healthy kids with one dead a few feet away. I don't know if I could have helped with that. All other kids that year were born healthy and while I wasn't looking.

Twice I have had kids that had bad tendons and needed their front legs splinted for several days. They look like cute little Forrest Gumps running around

Qvrfullmidwife · #46 04/07/09, 01:21 PM

"8 hours of pushing wouldn't be that unusual for a human,"

According to whom? 2 hrs is the generally accepted limit, by law in TX I am expected to transport unless birth is imminent after pushing has been going on for 2 hrs. Not saying that it doesnt happen but by any stretch of the imagination it would most definitely be unusual.

Dont give up your day job for obstetrics, LOL!

This is besides the point, though...a goat is not a human, they have different mechanisms of delivery and different time spans. Even given the differences, though, 8 hrs would be excessive for either...you just dont risk a malpractice suit for letting a goat push for 8 hrs, you just risk not having a positive outcome for dam and kids.

Qvrfullmidwife · #47 04/07/09, 01:25 PM

"I do think sometimes people are in too quick a hurry to help"

Again, I think it comes down to definition. Is it helping to do a quick check at the beginning of pushing to make sure that the baby is in a good presentation before they try to move the baby down too far? The majority of the times then you say "great position" and let dam do her thing. A minority of cases you have to rearrange, but you have the tiem and space to do it at that point.

But anyway my question is...do you call checking to see position followed by nothing else to be intervention?

chamoisee · #48 04/08/09, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshleyB

Sorry to disagree, but 8 hours of pushing in a human labor absolutely would signal trouble, and it is very doubtful that any O.B. or midwife would allow that to happen. You are right that a human being in labor for 24 hours does happen and is okay, but 2 hours of pushing is thought to be on the high end, and I don't think it often goes over three hours. In a hospital it is doubtful it would ever go beyond 2 hours before major intervention occurred. I've birthed my last three at home, and my pushing at home has never lasted more than 5 minutes, but my midwife would never ever allow me to go beyond 3 hours of pushing.

Arghh, sorry...I meant 8 hours of labor, 2 hours of pushing. :blush:

This would be within the realm of normal for people, but for a goat, serious trouble.

chamoisee · #49 04/08/09, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qvrfullmidwife

"8 hours of pushing wouldn't be that unusual for a human,"

According to whom? 2 hrs is the generally accepted limit, by law in TX I am expected to transport unless birth is imminent after pushing has been going on for 2 hrs. Not saying that it doesnt happen but by any stretch of the imagination it would most definitely be unusual.

Dont give up your day job for obstetrics, LOL!

This is besides the point, though...a goat is not a human, they have different mechanisms of delivery and different time spans. Even given the differences, though, 8 hrs would be excessive for either...you just dont risk a malpractice suit for letting a goat push for 8 hrs, you just risk not having a positive outcome for dam and kids.

Sorry, I was in a hurry and mis-typed.

I have had 6 kids myself and am aware that 8 hours of pushing would probably be deadly to somebody in humans...maybe the husband too, lol.

Qvrfullmidwife · #50 04/08/09, 11:43 PM

"maybe the husband too, lol."

snort!!!

sadie6447 · #51 04/08/09, 11:55 PM

My first child was 9lb and 18 inches. I weighed 124 when I got prego and I pushed for 2 1/2 hrs before they were getting ready to break my pelvic bone to get her out. She finally came out with out the breaking of bones but I ended up having to have reconstructive surgery after that. I feel for these does with large kids I know what they are goin through. I have to agree I would not let a doe go much over an hour and a half with out some kind of progression. I just know how they feel that stuff hurts!! Thank god I have never had a doe with that kind of problem or I probly woulda cried for her.

Ernie · #52 04/09/09, 07:45 AM

I believe that so much of the necessity for intervention in birthing goats is actually CAUSED by the high level of intervention. Weak does or weak kids are saved and thus go on to propagate the genetics that caused them to be weak in the first place. If we keep it up, then goats in the future are going to be similar to chickens in that 90% of them aren't capable at concluding the reproductive process, either by hatching or birthing and raising their own young. This goes for bottle-feeding as well. I've not seen a study on this, but my hunch is that bottle-fed does have a much lower success rate in successfully nursing their own kids.

That said, goats aren't cheap and I don't want to let one die on me if it can be saved. If I've got to pull a kid once in three seasons then I won't complain too much. Life isn't perfect. But if I have a doe that needs intervention every single year, then I'm going to eat her. Not sell her, because I don't want her genetics out there in the world.

Too many people don't understand animal husbandry. If you buy a goat and breed it, then you are making a COMMITMENT to the entire species and every goatherder from now until the end of the world. That commitment is that you will only maintain and propagate valuable genetics and that you will preserve the traits that make goats useful to human beings. If a person doesn't understand that, be it cows, goats, dogs, sheep, or chickens, then I don't think they need to be in the animal husbandry business.

I didn't read this full thread, so don't anyone get too offended and think I'm singling them out. I'm not. The above comments are just how I feel about the industry in general, not in reference to any of you.

QoTL · #53 04/09/09, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernie

If we keep it up, then goats in the future are going to be similar to chickens in that 90% of them aren't capable at concluding the reproductive process, either by hatching or birthing and raising their own young.

Ernie-

I'm not disagreeing with your post. I just want to point out that chickens have been PURPOSELY bred NOT to go broody and hatch chicks. As we know, once the hen decides to sit, no more eggs for at least three weeks. That's not cost effective, etc etc etc. My point here is where we WANT our goats/dogs/what have you to be really great moms, industry (or individuals I suppose) WANT lots of eggs from our chickens instead. It was selective breeding FOR being a bad mom. Does that make sense? Not quite enough caffeine yet..

Ernie · #54 04/09/09, 09:01 AM

Agreed. I'm not sure that we can say that for each chicken breed, but I think overall your statement clarifies it.

QoTL · #55 04/09/09, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernie

Agreed. I'm not sure that we can say that for each chicken breed, but I think overall your statement clarifies it.

I agree Ernie, you are exactly correct! We cannot say that for every breed.

My favorite hen of all is a d'Anvers girl. Absolutely beautiful. She came with a roo.. never got a single fertilized egg from that pair. In fact, in over a year of having this girl, I've gotten a grand total of 10 eggs LOL! I love her though.. so it's ok. Her genetics won't get passed along, and I have the priviledge of owning a sweet, friendly hen who makes egg laying merely a hobby (now that's bad farming right there lol)

Anyway... my apologies to the OP for dragging this thread off topic.

Meghan

Pony · #56 04/09/09, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozark_jewels

Anyone who has ever tried to untangle a traffic jam of 2-4 kids after the doe has pushed for 1 hour and jammed them all higgledy-piggledy into the birth canal, will wish they had done a finger check to see if that first kid was coming correctly. Its so easy, so simple and does absolutely NO harm. But it WILL save lives. Sometimes a kid, sometimes even a doe. But as with all things, some people will have to experience it to believe in it.

Okay, now I'm getting nervous...

Emily, do you want to come and live with us a few weeks/months until the goats settle in? And could you come back when Troubles freshens?

Oh, man....

hoggie · #57 04/09/09, 10:13 AM

Weighing in from across the pond here

I am a goat newbie, just finishing my second kidding season. I have to say that, so far, all my girls have managed to sneak them in while I am gone LOL.

But I have to largely agree with Ernie, long term I believe it can be a mistake to breed on from those kids of bad kiddings. Not necessasrily always, we know that there are causes for bad kiddings that are not genetic - but there can also be a genetic tendency that way.

I don't know a huge amount about the breeds of goat you have over there, but I believe they have been bred up to produce "litters" of kids. Here triplets is considered a lot - twins are good. I was discussing this with my dairy farmer neighbour a couple of weeks ago, and in an animal that only has two teats it cannot be entirely "natural" for them to have four or five young?? Not that it is necessarily wrong to be having them, but I believe it must be taken into account when thinking about such things as intervention.

But, as a smallholder not a dairy farmer, if I had to define the aims for my little herd, breeding for good fertility and ease of kidding would be high on the list of priorities, along with temperament and "good doing". I would rather have a goat that produces a "reasonable" amount of milk and a kid or two and keeps well, than one which produces champion quantities and litters of kids but needs to be treated like a Derby winner?

But I digress, on a one-off basis of course I would help out where needed, but that kid would probably have a big question mark "freezer" next to it's name until mum had proved herself by having more kids comfortably. If that makes any sense.

hoggie

hoofinitnorth · #58 04/09/09, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernie

I believe that so much of the necessity for intervention in birthing goats is actually CAUSED by the high level of intervention. Weak does or weak kids are saved and thus go on to propagate the genetics that caused them to be weak in the first place.

Very good point. This is why the best breeders will not continue to breed pairs that produce these situations.

I do not like to pull kids, but I always go in to check that they're done. I will also go in if there is little to no progress or the doe is tiring out "too quickly". Every time I have done this it has been due to a kid in a weird position and the doe just need a little help repositioning. In all but one situation, after the kid was resituated, she pushed them out on her own. I've only got a handful of kiddings under my belt, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ernie

Too many people don't understand animal husbandry. If you buy a goat and breed it, then you are making a COMMITMENT to the entire species and every goatherder from now until the end of the world. That commitment is that you will only maintain and propagate valuable genetics and that you will preserve the traits that make goats useful to human beings. If a person doesn't understand that, be it cows, goats, dogs, sheep, or chickens, then I don't think they need to be in the animal husbandry business.

As tough as it may be to not breed ol' sweet Bessy again because she's just SOOO sweet, if she's not top notch, one should be prepared to cull that line if the resulting offspring aren't up to par (at least far better than their dam and sire). This is a tough, tough thing for many, mostly because there is so much subjectivity and so much hope that one can fix faults with the next breeding.

Mrs. Jo · #59 04/09/09, 12:45 PM

Define when a bad kidding is caused from bad genetics or bad management and bad decisions made by goat owners.

Sorry, I've had hypocalcemic does go on to have perfect kiddings the next year. Should they have died?

Is your management different for milk goats or meat goats?

hoofinitnorth · #60 04/09/09, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo@ LaudoDeumFa

Define when a bad kidding is caused from bad genetics or bad management and bad decisions made by goat owners.

Ayup.

The difference illustrated by Jo here is why I don't blink an eye about helping with bad presentations but I won't breed a doe that is prone to prolapse or too narrow in the pelvis to pass a kid on her own and needs a c-section. (Yes, these are extreme ends of the spectrum for discussion on point.)