CL? Please Help!

#41 01/19/09, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HappyFarmer

There is a procedure using Formalin & injecting it into the walled off abcess, just before it bursts. I don't know how legal it is, but supposedly it works good if you spot the abcesses in time, and over time CLA will cease within your herd.
You can find the article here: http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/ar...LFormalin.html

It's an off-label use. I contacted the vet, hoping to get a dose of Formalin, but somewhat expecting the vet to be resistant. Imagine my surprise when he said that he had seen it used that way with good result. He made up a vial for me and I picked it up. No problem. The abscess goes from hard to soft, prior to bursting. After seeing the pics of the definitely CL abscess, I'm not 100% positive that my doe has CL (I know, I'm getting her tested), but whatever it was, it dried up and sloughed off. Much less stress (on everyone involved) than lancing.

manygoatsnmore · #42 01/19/09, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KimM

Isolation is imperative to keep possible infection contained.
Your vet must do the swap/sample and send it in. They have protocols they have to follow for sending in samples containing biologically hazardous materials.
Can you buy a few cattle panels and set up some small, temporary pens away from the others?

When one of my bucks came up with a lump, I drew a sample out with an 18 gauge needle and 3cc syringe, stuck the needle into a red top vacuum tube, and followed the directions on the WADDL (WSU) site. They will tell you exactly what you need to do. As far as sending in a swab of the exudate, I'd use a sterile cotton swab (available at any pharmacy that carries dressing supplies) and sterile gloves, swab the site well, getting as much of the pus saturating the swab as possible, then break off the wooden stick short and place it in a sterile specimen cup (also available at the pharmacy). Send it off to be tested. The vet does NOT have to do it - you can do it yourself. HTH.

Vinnie's bump was just in front of his ear, and like you, I feared the worst. He did not have the thick, cheesy, toothpaste type of pus in the bump - just cloudy, pink, thin liquid, much as you have described. It turned out to be a staph infection - treatable!!! From the description and the pics, I suspect that is what you have going on, too. It cost me 7.50 for the test (I had all of my herd tested by blood for CAE and CL at the same time, and they all tested negative). If you are out of state, it's a little more, and there is a $10 set-up fee no matter how many samples you send in, so it's worth your while to test everyone while you are sending it in. I know you'll feel better knowing for sure, one way or the other. SEND IN THAT SAMPLE!!!

KimM · #43 01/19/09, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manygoatsnmore

When one of my bucks came up with a lump, I drew a sample out with an 18 gauge needle and 3cc syringe, stuck the needle into a red top vacuum tube, and followed the directions on the WADDL (WSU) site. They will tell you exactly what you need to do. As far as sending in a swab of the exudate, I'd use a sterile cotton swab (available at any pharmacy that carries dressing supplies) and sterile gloves, swab the site well, getting as much of the pus saturating the swab as possible, then break off the wooden stick short and place it in a sterile specimen cup (also available at the pharmacy). Send it off to be tested. The vet does NOT have to do it - you can do it yourself. HTH.

Good to know, thanks!!!

Quote:

Vinnie's bump was just in front of his ear, and like you, I feared the worst. He did not have the thick, cheesy, toothpaste type of pus in the bump - just cloudy, pink, thin liquid, much as you have described. It turned out to be a staph infection - treatable!!! From the description and the pics, I suspect that is what you have going on, too. It cost me 7.50 for the test (I had all of my herd tested by blood for CAE and CL at the same time, and they all tested negative). If you are out of state, it's a little more, and there is a $10 set-up fee no matter how many samples you send in, so it's worth your while to test everyone while you are sending it in. I know you'll feel better knowing for sure, one way or the other. SEND IN THAT SAMPLE!!!

The sooner, the better.

CookingPam777 · #44 01/20/09, 07:48 PM

I contacted the vet about it as I want to do everything in one shot pregnancy blood draws and CL tests. Also how much are CAE tests? He is trying to convince me to do it myself. But I do not want to get it wrong. He said he would be willing to check them over and let me know what he thinks. I do not want to draw blood unless someone offers to help me in my area. A vet used to live across the street but they just moved. With the amount of tests I want to get done I think I will just go to the vet.

KimM · #45 01/20/09, 08:28 PM

Tell your vet that you'd be more than happy to learn to draw blood yourself if he would teach you how. Then you can try one or two with him there to help you. It really isn't hard. Keep us posted.

CookingPam777 · #46 01/20/09, 08:44 PM

Good idea thanks I will have to do that!

DQ · #47 01/20/09, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

Just looking at the spot, I'd say it's VERY likely to be CL.

Test. Isolate. Vaccinate.

Your property is now infected, if it is CL. No ifs, ands, or butts. Any 'clean' goat on your property WILL contract it, if not now, then later in a stressful time of life. (food change, pregnancy, kidding, temperature change, OMG it's raining...)

I

that is simply not true and I wish people would stop spreading panic over CL.
yes it is nasty and contagious but that doesn't jsut because one goat on the property had it doesn't mean that they all will!!!! that is just silly. it has to be contracted just as any other disease and there are certain things that increase the risk of contracting it. it doesn't just magically infect every goat on the property as soon an abscess bursts.

. "Infection occurs through wounds caused by head butting, punctures, and shearing, as well as by oral ingestion of the exudate (pus) from an abscess that has ruptured."

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/ar...hadenitis.html

so yeah. isolate and test the goat. get rid of the hay. clean the pen. and don't worry about it unless a problem presents itself. there is nothing you can do anyway. unless you are going to start advising that everyone kill any goat that has ever been on a property that has had a goat with cl on it. like 90% of all goats?

I have boers and you can bet that every one of my boer goats that wasn't bred on my property was at some point in with a goat that had cl and probably one that had an open cl wound. its jsut a fact of life in most boer herds. shouldn't be but is. the longest I have had one is 4 years and I have had NO abcesses. no unthriftyness or coughing. nothing. I have had goats that went through severe stress, inury, infections,hauled back and forth to breeders, tormented by dogs, and never presented with any signs of cl despite almost assuredly being in the vicinity of a cl abscess at some point in their life.

I think you are confusing the "all goats will get it if one goat has it" with the "all goats with cl will at some point, probably during a period of stress, develop an abscess" the latter of which is probably true. the first of which is absolutly not.

beccachow · #48 01/20/09, 09:21 PM

CookingPam, deeeeeeeeeeep breath. (hugs). Just do whatever you need to do to isolate her and clean the area, send the test off, and wait (the hardest part) and see. I bet you this is not as bad as you are afraid it will be. Breathe deep, do what you need to do, and don't borrow any trouble til you have to. Is there a reason you suspect CAE on top of all this?

Deep, cleansing breaths, my friend.

CookingPam777 · #49 01/21/09, 05:35 AM

No not at all. But I certainly would just like to check since we are already there doing tests. She came from a untested herd because I didn't know better than to question it. I have one doe though that I am just super nervous about getting tested for CAE. Her mama had CAE but she tested negative which they say can change. Her baby Rose as I have said is my favorite and a real keeper I would like to get her tested as well. If they turn up having CAE they will be my pets and I will not breed them. If I do it would be just Rose and I would keep her baby.

CookingPam777 · #50 01/21/09, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DQ

that is simply not true and I wish people would stop spreading panic over CL.
yes it is nasty and contagious but that doesn't jsut because one goat on the property had it doesn't mean that they all will!!!! that is just silly. it has to be contracted just as any other disease and there are certain things that increase the risk of contracting it. it doesn't just magically infect every goat on the property as soon an abscess bursts.

. "Infection occurs through wounds caused by head butting, punctures, and shearing, as well as by oral ingestion of the exudate (pus) from an abscess that has ruptured."

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/ar...hadenitis.html

so yeah. isolate and test the goat. get rid of the hay. clean the pen. and don't worry about it unless a problem presents itself. there is nothing you can do anyway. unless you are going to start advising that everyone kill any goat that has ever been on a property that has had a goat with cl on it. like 90% of all goats?

I have boers and you can bet that every one of my boer goats that wasn't bred on my property was at some point in with a goat that had cl and probably one that had an open cl wound. its jsut a fact of life in most boer herds. shouldn't be but is. the longest I have had one is 4 years and I have had NO abcesses. no unthriftyness or coughing. nothing. I have had goats that went through severe stress, inury, infections,hauled back and forth to breeders, tormented by dogs, and never presented with any signs of cl despite almost assuredly being in the vicinity of a cl abscess at some point in their life.

I think you are confusing the "all goats will get it if one goat has it" with the "all goats with cl will at some point, probably during a period of stress, develop an abscess" the latter of which is probably true. the first of which is absolutly not.

When she said that she sent me into panic mode. I was already worried to death. Her post is enough to make anybody that is super close to their goats cry

. After I calmed down I could finally start researching and find out that it had to drip in the pen. One thing I can see is that it slowly dripped. Not very likely she got it on anything because it stuck to her fur and busted early in the day time. I remember peeking out and seeing her with her bump at like 8 am. Later in the day I went out to feed them that is when I noticed it busted. It was draining slow though as it got all stuck in her fur. She was playing on her tires and was on the other side of the pen the whole time while it was busted when I came out she went over for a drink of water. During the day time though they stay on the other side because it is sunnier and has things for them to play on as well they have friends in the pen next to them. So if anything I should clean all that fencing rake out that area and get new tires. There is no chance it busted in her house or among the hay which was in their house. Since it busted I fed her on the side she was at then got her out. She is not a rubber either. Meaning she does not rub against fences. So little chance that's how she busted it. But I would wash it down just in case.

CookingPam777 · #51 01/21/09, 06:17 AM

The vet probably will have a pretty good idea if it is a staph infection or CL or just an abscess. There was no pus yesterday when I checked I will check today. But I think it's getting better. So how am I going to get it tested? I guess I should have done it myself we would at least have the puss. From what I have read CL bumps go away and come back and break out other places right? So it could still be CL right?

thatcompchick · #52 01/21/09, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DQ

that is simply not true and I wish people would stop spreading panic over CL.
yes it is nasty and contagious but that doesn't jsut because one goat on the property had it doesn't mean that they all will!!!! that is just silly. it has to be contracted just as any other disease and there are certain things that increase the risk of contracting it. it doesn't just magically infect every goat on the property as soon an abscess bursts.

. "Infection occurs through wounds caused by head butting, punctures, and shearing, as well as by oral ingestion of the exudate (pus) from an abscess that has ruptured."

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/ar...hadenitis.html

so yeah. isolate and test the goat. get rid of the hay. clean the pen. and don't worry about it unless a problem presents itself. there is nothing you can do anyway. unless you are going to start advising that everyone kill any goat that has ever been on a property that has had a goat with cl on it. like 90% of all goats?

I have boers and you can bet that every one of my boer goats that wasn't bred on my property was at some point in with a goat that had cl and probably one that had an open cl wound. its jsut a fact of life in most boer herds. shouldn't be but is. the longest I have had one is 4 years and I have had NO abcesses. no unthriftyness or coughing. nothing. I have had goats that went through severe stress, inury, infections,hauled back and forth to breeders, tormented by dogs, and never presented with any signs of cl despite almost assuredly being in the vicinity of a cl abscess at some point in their life.

I think you are confusing the "all goats will get it if one goat has it" with the "all goats with cl will at some point, probably during a period of stress, develop an abscess" the latter of which is probably true. the first of which is absolutly not.

It lives in the soil for a long time. It lives on wood. SO unless this goat was isolated when the abscess bursts, and everything was limed to death and or top 6" of soil dozered off (yes I've seen people do this) - it is very possible the cl organism is on her property. So yes, it is very possible she'll have clean goats infected.

There is a vet recommendation out there on the web that talks about disinfection, clean vs infected parts of the property etc...

HOWEVER - if the goats are from the same source or have been living together for a while - it's a very high/good chance most of them ARE infected. She would have to test them all, not just the abscessed goat. Just because she hasn't SEEN an abscess doesn't mean they didn't have one (internally).

And as far as who you are quoting - let's remember this is the same person who was ADAMANT about not having Cl until it turned up in her herd, then she spends time poking needles full of formaldehyde into cysts (don't EVER do this in a goat that will be meat) - it is very not legal.

Andrea

thatcompchick · #53 01/21/09, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HappyFarmer

Test the pus. Get Trek-trol. Rake the pens. bleach the fences & whatnot. Burn the feeders & build new. Apply Trek-trol. Apply iodine to the open abcess & partition that goat off. Wait for results from the testing. Use cattle panels if you are at all able to get a clean area(back lawn?).

There is a procedure using Formalin & injecting it into the walled off abcess, just before it bursts. I don't know how legal it is, but supposedly it works good if you spot the abcesses in time, and over time CLA will cease within your herd.
You can find the article here: http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/ar...LFormalin.html
Obviously you care about your goats a whole bunch. I hope all works out for you.
HF

Please DON'T do this. It isn't legal (a) and (B) cl will not cease to be in your herd because there ARE internal abscesses!!!!!!!

clarification on the legal part - if you NEVER put your goat into an auction or any venue that it will possibly end up at the butcher (aka when you sell it, give them a paper that says what you did, or instead of auction put the goat down) - the formalin is very illegal in a meat scenario, and I can guarantee with all the meat tracing/cool, etc - not something you'd ever want to consider dealing with USDA about.

Amazing how SWG has been claiming formalin will decrease cl absence in herds for YEARS now and yet she's still dealing with the problem. However, if she culled, she wouldn't be...hmmm...

Andrea

Qvrfullmidwife · #54 01/21/09, 07:52 AM

"People say the test isn't accurate but I think that's all fooey. With a disease, antibodies will be present in the blood stream and is what testing looks for."

My understanding is that the CL cyst itself is why bloodtests are known for false negatives--the body forms the cyst to wall off infection from the rest of the body so culturing the exudate from the cyst is really the only surefire way to tell.

Ruptured cysts pretty much anywhere on the body with puss--be it thick and cheesy or thin and watery and bloody--would 1)get that doe in immediate quarantine 2)on her way to the vet for cultures immediately or as soon as they opened 3)myself on anti-anxiety meds at the thought if having to disinfect the entire dairy!

Curious , mygoat,(really, purely curious, not trying to cause trouble or challenge you)...I do not disagree about the seriousness of the disease, but if it is serious enough to consider moving, do you inform the prospective buyers of the property that the property may be infected with CL? I will be honest, that was one nice thing about moving here was knowing that for at least 20 years before we moved in there had been no goats on the property.

susanne · #55 01/21/09, 08:30 AM

[QUOTE=Qvrfullmidwife;3571813

Curious , mygoat,(really, purely curious, not trying to cause trouble or challenge you)...I do not disagree about the seriousness of the disease, but if it is serious enough to consider moving, do you inform the prospective buyers of the property that the property may be infected with CL? I will be honest, that was one nice thing about moving here was knowing that for at least 20 years before we moved in there had been no goats on the property.[/QUOTE]

the next question would be, how do i know the next place i'm moving to has had no animals with cl in the past????
too many don't even care to test.

CookingPam777 · #56 01/21/09, 08:40 AM

You all are scaring me hehehe. I am just praying I do NOT have to worry about it. Many who can see it in real life think it's not CL.

DQ · #57 01/21/09, 08:45 AM

although its incidence in people is probably underreported. if contracting cl from the enviroment (wood fences, dirt etc...) was really that easy I suspect we would see many more human and other animal cases. yes it can be passed that way but think about other communicable diseases. the flu is very communicable...airborne.... much more than cl. now just because you are in the same room with someone who has the flu doesn't mean you are going to get it. staph is very communicable too and is probably a better analogy. just become some kiddo in a locker room comes down with it doesnt mean that all those kids will. keeping in mind that the "disinfection" that takes place in a situation like that is after a length period before diagnosis so you can't really pin the lack of spread on that.

she said "your goats will get it" which isn't neccessarily true. it is possible but If it were as communicable as some people seem to think I believe not only would more goats have it but there would be much higher incidence in the mammalian population in general, including humans. adn I don't think that internal abscesses would not show some type of outward symptoms, and from my understanding are rarely found in goats that is mostly a sheep thing. I will cull any goat that develops cl but at this point I think I am safe, although I will remain vigilant for many years. I have recently closed my herd except for very thoroughly screened animals. I hope to have one of the few boer herds here that actually doesn't have cl ...imagine that.

"Unfortunately, it is the internal abscesses that are fatal, whereas external abscesses are the ones generally responsible for disease transmission. Sheep are more prone to internal abscesses and goats are more prone to external abscesses. If an animal is experiencing chronic weight loss, it may be carrying internal CL abscesses on vital organs." http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/U/UNP-0085/

DQ · #58 01/21/09, 08:58 AM

the formalin treatment is used for breeding stock not meat. I would be heartily surprised if any animal bound exclusively for meat in most commercial meat herds had any treatment whatsoever or even was ever monitered for abscesses and

susanne · #59 01/21/09, 09:05 AM

it is so rare, that my hay farmer spent the second time in the hospital for surgical removal of an abscess on his face. testing confirmed caseous lymphadenitis.
this is incurable in humans and very painful.

susanne · #60 01/21/09, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DQ

teh few boer herds I have had the displeasure of seeing are riddled with cl. if internal abscesses were so common and cl were that communicable wouldnt' they have a bit of incentive to fix the problem when all the carcasses were condemned? they don't because most goats don't develop internal abscesses. the formalin treatment is used for breeding stock not meat. I would be heartily surprised if any animal bound exclusively for meat in most commercial meat herds had any treatment whatsoever or even was ever monitered for abscesses.

where do you think breeding stock is going if they are not meeting standards or are not productive anymore????
to know that so many using formalin to try and cure, makes me sick to my stomach.