Cocci prevention – how do you do it?
 

I’ll have baby LaManchas soon. :banana02::banana02: As I have not been successful in keeping my earless darlings off the area designated as “6-mo. rotational area,” :flame: I must be very diligent in worm and Coccidia prevention with the new babies.

As a beginner, I lost my beautiful Rosita to Cocci even though I had done all that vet friend recommended :mad: when I started with goats. I almost lost Dulcie but took her to a different vet on a Sunday afternoon. $125 dollars later and lots of TLC she survived but didn’t grow very fast AND didn’t come into season until 2 yrs old. (She and my entire original meat-goat herd are now at a neighbor’s farm working to clear undergrowth.) I just couldn’t bring myself to kill one, let alone eat it; so we are now owned by LaMancha milk goats.

What do you do to prevent the awful coccidia grip? :help:

Thanks. Paul

dairygoatinfo.com has a excellent section called Goatkeeping 101 with articles about various aspects of dairy goat care. Here's a VERY wonderful one that addresses coccidia:

http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,2077.0.html

We learned about cocci from various sources, most importantly that it can take 3 days for cocci to multiply & overcome a goats system given the correct environment. From there, we absolutely positively do not allow any goats to be in that environment more than 3 days. Cocci has been called a "man made" disease.

Easy enough since most are on pasture, in our case we have to worry about the moms with new kids, as they are the most confined inside our barn. We try to practice prevention measures but it's not always possible. Other than that, we'll use Dimethox if there is any doubt regarding the exposure.
HF

I just read their 1st months medication...

Would you really want to eat this meat? Not being a smart-alec... this just seems to be a terrific amount of chemical's to put in an animal. My (human) kids got a couple of immunizations and maybe a few vitamins. I never wormed them, just feed them well. Ok, so they didn't eat off the ground (actually they probably did :rolleyes:) but they were packed into overcrowded, over heated classrooms, and managed to emerge with little more than colds and the like. Seems like a whole lot of medication to dump into an animal.

Its not really that much since most of it is a water carrier, or a little pill. You could consider the cocci meds pretty much the same as the vaccines your kids got. This is to prevent them from getting ill. Most cocci meds are sulfa meds. The same thing prescribed to humans for illness. It sounds like a lot but its really not. You can not compare goats to kids, they are not the same.

I think you may have misinterpreted the information. The first month is treatment for coccidia and then worming on day 20. There's not a vaccination until day 67.

The recommendations for goat care that I supplied the link for are for Dairy goats. Not meat goats.

Meat goats just have to survive a while till you butcher them. Dairy goats are a little trickier to raise because you want them healthy over the long term.

It is your choice to vaccinate or worm or treat for coccidia.... or not.

Prevention is also alot less medication than treatment.

Down here kids not on prevention simply can't grow out to kid on their first birthday. So you have yearling pens of does who do nothing but eat profit because you wouldn't spend about $7 per doe using prevention the first 18 weeks. Makes littl sense.

A good program on boers would include clean pens, that dams are put in to kid and wean kids in. Moot point after a few years without freeze or arid conditions in that pen. Your back to either moving up north or using prevention meds and wormers.

It's also important to know milk and meat withdrawal times on the products you choose to use in your own herd. Vicki

Amen.

I hot and wet environs, like the South/SouthWest US and those with smaller areas to house their goats, cocci is a nightmare. We have such changing weather patterns here that I have learned to take a bearish stance against the nasties out there from the get go.

Becasue I dry lot for then most part, we do a really intense managemnt system with things like C&D anti-toxin at brith, then a covexin8 shot at 1 week of age, then every two weeks until 8 weeks and a last one at 3 months!

They get BovaSera/PolySerum also at birth for general immune support, and a dose of Bio-Mycin also for e.Coli concerns. Life in the Appalachian rain forest ain't always pretty to small livestock.

I used CalfPro two yrs. ago and liked it, but last year used the feed through method for older kids after Sulmet doses. This year, I am still sarching for Baycox and will use CalfPro again as well feed through sources.

The adults are not really bothered but the babies will have all sorts of problems and can have majpr problems thriving after treatment. We lost many babies in the begining from pneumonia due (dead in less than 24hrs.) to stress from cocci. Also I have never had blood in the stools of the babies or other cocci symptoms even when the fecals came back high.

There are very few goat savy Vets around here and I had trouble w/ some bad info from the vets:flame:. I spent a lot of money and lost a lot of goats (fecals are worth their weight in gold, wish they would give more info than low,med or ligh load and the worm breed) I had to really struggle and be my own vet for a long time... still do, as I hate to say it, spending $300 for a vet is not practical when the goat is worth $50 bucks. We don't have just one or two goats, they are not pets and they are needed to make a profit.

This forum has saved my hide a time or two.:D:rock: I really am so gratefull to all the knowledge that is here.

I found that treating the does before they gave birth w/ corrid has helped keep the levels down enough to not harm the kids. Keeping the kids off of really wet pastures also helps but good luck:p. keeping the goats per acer to lower than what they recomend also helps.

One year it was so wet and nasty I thought we were all going to grow webed feet. I had to treat the kids heavily that year. I have not lost adults to this but my kids can be struck down very fast.

Once the babies are older they will have immunity but to get them to that age is sometimes hard w/o intervention.

I have also used sweetlix w/ rumensin for the does and really like it. There is a preventative (not a treatment) in the mineral that keeps cocci in the adults low. Preventing high loads cocci is much better than treating it.

I raise meat animals and am not selling or eating my does (breeding replacements and just done w/ a move so not up to speed) so do some reasearch on how that works w/ dairy animals. Meat and dairy raising practices can be 2 different animals.

Meat or Dairy cocci still kills kids.

I think it is improtant to distinguish between animals that you are retaining for breeding and animals that are truly destined for the table. jsut because they are a meat breed doensn't mean any one particualr animal is going to be meat any time soon . I give my doelings a sulfa treatment and then when they are eating enough, start them on medicated feed until they are 4-6 months old. my wethers get a sulfa treatment and then they are on non heroic salvage treatment only. but they live on pasture and don't get any sacked feed. they are not economical meat if I feed them sacked feed or load them with meds.

ideally treatment would be unneccesary or rare because living conditions don't support cocci or worm outbreaks. and in a meat herd this is even more important because we can't have an economical product if we buy alot of feed or manage intensively.

BoviSeri/poly serum/colustrum Question
 

Wrong thread

Someone told me they used FastTrack with great success and none of thier kids got cocci.

Fast Track is a probiotic product like Probios. Although it can help keep intestinal flora healthy it can not treat or prevent cocci. There is also an overdose warning with Fast Track, there is no one for probiotics like Probios. V

No, I didn't mean it to sound like the breeder used FT as a coccidostat. Her theory was it boosted the immune system so a cocci overload was less likely. Now it simply could be just a coincidence that she has not had to deal with it since she has used this product.

The person I have bought most of my goats from has a huge problem with coccidia, and some things i dont like is that she feds medicated feed, the goats kinda look rough, but those I have taken home, got off the medicated feed, switched to all grain and boss with alfalfa and done a week of Corid on, all have turned into healthy fat coccidia free goats. Currently I have a less than Ideal area for my goats, but still not positive for coccidia.
I would say if you have it, get rid of it with albon, do your best to prevent it from re occuring mainly by alternating pastures.

Last year I had my first experience with Cocci after about 20 years with goats. Fortunately, with the information available on this site I managed to correctly diagnose and begin treatment immediately with Sulmet. After the initial threat was eliminated and the outbreak halted, I switched the kids feed from the grain/alfalfa mix to a medicated feed designed to prevent coccidia.
I fed them Blue Seal Meat Goat Grow & Finish DC Pellet – Medicated. The label says it's a highly–fortified, complete medicated feed for growing and finishing goats with Decoquinate for the prevention of coccidiosis. The fixed–component formula contains yeast culture for increasing digestibility, ammonium chloride to aid in the prevention of urinary calculi, and chelated trace minerals for increased bioavailability to promote muscle tissue and bone growth. Decoquinate has no withdrawal period.
Since I had very good luck with that feeding program and it's only required for the first six months or so, I've decided to use it right out of the gate this kidding season. Once the kids are weaned and on solid food, it'll be the medicated feed. The price is about the same as Coarse 14 or 16 (sweet feed) so there's no extra cost involved and only the typical separation at feeding time. I pretty much allow free feeding on Alfalfa pellets and always hay.
I'm attributing all the issues I've 'enjoyed' with my current foray into goat raising to the stock I purchased and to some degree to the new farmstead. My previous herd was completely closed and perhaps I was just fortunate to have purchased stock from a very, very reputable dealer.

Ok, so from the dairygoatinfo site I see that treatment for cocci begins when kids are 20 days old. This is all related after a long segment on heat treating colostrum for CAE prevention. What if dam-raising? Does cocci treatment still start at day 20? or is it better to start sooner?

Also, is sulmet a pill? Is it trimethoprim sulfa? What concentration pill is it? How much do the kids need, dosage by weight, and for how many days? Where do you get it? I found some kind of sulfa something or other at TSC the other day, but it was WAY expensive and I wasnt sure it was the right thing. Do I need to get this from the vet?

Thanks!

Sulmet is a liquid and available at most feed stores and TSC for around $8 a pint. I don't know about the others.

If it begins at an age and not at an onset of symptoms, this is prevention, not treatment. This is important to know because there are different products for each of these scenarios.

We have not found the need to practice prevention here (most local goat breeders in general) but one herd nearby had a terrible time last year with cocci and they are going to try prevention for a batch of kids.

I am confused by the above. I thought the CD&T Anti-Toxin was for goats who had bloat entering into entero. I thought that shot did nothing else but that. Does it do something else?
I use the CD&T Toxoid for regular shots not the Anti-toxin, but not that young since I read and was told by the vet it has no effect on the really little ones.

I get the huge bottle of Co-rid, (for cows of course :( ) and have used it in their water but we are in a dry place that freezes in winter and thankfully have no issues with worms and the like. So far every fecal done has been negative for worms and eggs. I have them send it out to be more accurate then they can do it in the office. I do not envy those in wet humid places were worms are a given. Good Luck Paul I hope you find something that works for you.
Oh and if you put it in their water try to make sure none of your other animals are drinking it too. That was a problem I had here when I used the Corid.

Is this the stuff I need? I only ask because it does not say it specifically treats coccidia. It says treats diseases caused by susceptible organisms....Just want to be clear its the correct one.

Can someone verify?

http://www.pbsanimalhealth.com/cgi-l...204+1232688244

Thanks!
Alisa~

Alisa, the amounts you have to use of a 12.5% sulfa is huge, there are better choices of sulfas than that, but yes you would need that big jug if you have even a handful of kids, it's dosed at an ounce per 100 pounds. Make sure you have good dosages from someone using exactly that drug, who fecals, because alot of dosages are simply made up, passed on by others until it sounds pretty darn good because it came from the internet...do they use it sucessfully? Probably not.

Thaiblue, it's once again what someone does..will they have losses to entero if they stop using antitoxin at birth or move from covexin 8 to CD&T? What does an antitoxin do to the immunity they should be getting from their dams colostrum? In pups we know Ieg immunity is nill when you start vaccine to early. Does it work the same in goats? What does a toxoid do for a kid given at 1 week old? Does it break maternal immunity?

See the problem is when something works, like nasal gen...folks swear if they give it in the nose of their goats before shows they never get pnemonia at shows. Problem is the vaccine carries NO vaccines for pnemonia goats get. Unless you are diagnosed with malignant edema, using Covexin 8 is overkill, giving vaccines once again goats don't get disease protection from. You would be better off vaccinating with Lysigin since you can't get malignant edema or gangrenous mastitis if your goats have immunity to staph aureous, what Lysigin gives you.

So always ask folks why....why do you do this? Do you fecal to even know it is working? How does an antitoxin help a kid at birth for entero? Now disease like ecoli, yes if you have been diagnosed with it, giving ecoli vaccine works really well at birth. But clostridiums? Can it work?

In the end though it's your farm, set your management and then tweak it as you learn more. It's all anyone can do. Vicki

Remember, Sulmet/Albon is a coccidia-cide (kills the suckers dead). This is for treatment.

Corid (Amprolium), Bovatec (Lasalocid) deccox (decoquinate) are coccidia-stats (keeps the suckers at bay so the goats' own immune system deals with them.) These are for prevention.

The best preventative I have found is CalfPro- liquid Bovatec- that is easily dispersed in water and fed in your babies' milk bottle starting right after they get colostrum. CalfPro can be used in a situation for prevention as well. PBS animal supply has a gal. for $35- money well spent.

If they would release Baycox (toltrazuril) in the US, I would be a real happy camper- it is one dose coverage and the cocci-nasties are gone, period.

We start cocci treatment almost as soon as they can walk, :-)

The C&D anti-toxin is used immediately at birth because in our area, the weather in Mar.-May is contengent to wet and warm- blooms of the clostridium can pop up when you least know it, and no matter how much you've vaccianted mom, it's a battle to make sure no problems pop up when the weather changes.....Joyce Lazarro (Saanendoah.com)told me some years ago that she had never seen such problems anywhere else in the US.

Up in these hills, Black Leg is a problem- a cow at the TVA&I fair a couple of years ago went down from it, and nightfall she was dead. This was directly across from the goat barn. This is also why I do not show much any more. Why take a chance? Keep your livestock healthy by not exposing them to stuff and staying home.

Oh mmy. .I worked on and sent a long response yesterday but HT apparently had a problem and lost it.:grump:

Mentor gave me a magazine. On page 73 of the Hoegger Supply catalog in bold print it says: “ Amprolium (Co-Rid) is not ever recommended for goats.” :eek:

I have almost decided to use their suggested regimen of Di-Methox 40%.

I use CD&T at one week and 21 days later. Isn’t this the same as C&D with tetanus?
Paul

Mentor gave me a magazine. On page 73 of the Hoegger Supply catalog in bold print it says: “ Amprolium (Co-Rid) is not ever recommended for goats.”

I have almost decided to use their suggested regimen of Di-Methox 40%.

I use CD&T at one week and 21 days later. Isn’t this the same as C&D with tetanus?
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Paul, paul paul!!! :) What you really need to do is to go to goatkeeping 101 and just copy out my from birth to kidding, in which I take you from the birth of a kid until that kid has kids herself. :) Hoeggers, although very well meaning and carries everything you need or think you need to have goats, is a very nanny and billy goat kind of place. CAE positive goats on their covers, I wouldn't be taking management advice from someone like that unless it's what you want your stock to look like.

You don't live in the frozen north, follow advice from those who dont' fecal and use prevention...are they really using prevention, is it working? How would you know?

Set your management, use it as gospel, then as you gain some knowledge then tweak what you are doing.

Overdose Corid and yes you can cause thiamin defficency in your goats, polio, but overdose anything orally and it does the same thing, because it kills rumen flora, and a healthy rumen is where all of the thiamin in a goats system in made.

I couldn't have what I have without Corid, prevention is key, if you are having to use sulfa's or whatever for treatment, just butcher the kid, she will never grow to her potential, milk to her potential or show to her potential with the ruined intestines cocci does to goats. The dosages for how I use my Corid is up in goatkeeping 101 of dairygoatinfo.com I start at day 20, because cocci has a 21 days lifecycle, they go on corid, I put it in their morning lambar of milk for 5 days. I like Corid because it only kills the most harmful lifecycle of cocci in the goats system, so the other lifecycles are left intact so the kids builds immunity. It's why also you want to fecal as you use it, if numbers get uncomfortably high I will hit the group again since you can't tell with even a microscope which lifecycle you are seeing. Corid works by blocking the absorption of thiamin from the cocci occyts, NOT THE GOAT!

If you are going to use Dimethox 40% use it like you should, once again go to my forum. Using it the crazy way from once again someone from the north, once a day then once a week, it isn't even how you use a sulfa, most in the south shouldn't even 1/2 the dose on days 2, 3, 4 and 5. And also know that using a sulfa for prevention means it's killing all the lifecycles, so your kids aren't building immunity.

Why do you use CD&T at 1 week. If you give your dams prevaccinations at 3 weeks (or about that ) before they kid, it stimulates the clostridium immunity your doe has and floods it in the colostrum....why now give a kid a toxoid that can break maternal immunity? Even in my saturated farm I give shots to kids much later. Yes CD&T is the two clostridiums that mostly effect what is called overeaters disease, or enterotoxemia and T is tetanus. You have to give the full dose and then on day 21 give a second dose to seal immunity, why it's dubious at best that you are giving it at 1 week old. Vicki

There is toxoid and anti-toxin. Toxoid is prevention - usually it is CD&T to include tetanus. Anti-toxin is treatment or VERY short-term prevention and is usually just C&D. Tetanus anti-toxin is usually sold separately (but I don't know why!).

I have never heard this before now.

Not at all uncommon. Effective? Recommended? Don't know.
I understand they are only selling out the pre-manufactured 40% Di-Methox product and not making any more??? Is it true?

(thank goodness for email archives, HT ate this this AM)

I've been thinking along the same lines... Di-Methox 40%.

My first 2 kidding "seasons" I didn't even know what cocci was. No problem... big, healthy kids for the freezer. The next year, a few of the kids were destined to stay. They looked/acted healthy, but seemed small (still didn't know about cocci). 2 of the doelings died and 1 completely stopped growing, the rest were meaty, but runty. Last year, we did cocci prevention using the you-mix powder. The kids (all for the freezer) grew perfectly. Some seem to be of the opinion that the powder is not as good... I don't know about that, but it wasn't the most convenient. The 40% sounds like it would be easy to use... not having to weigh everyone sounds great. Much simpler.

The 40% sounds like it would be easy to use... not having to weigh everyone sounds great.
................................

You have to know weights on any medication. Any information you are reading that comes with one size fits all with meds, not vaccines is wrong. So you really think it doesn't matter that I have Nubians and you may have pygmys and someone else boers, the kid should all get the same amount? If it's too good to be true it's not. Vicki

I've observed that cocci in colder climates tends to be more of an issue in crowded herds, or crowded sections of herds. Not sure if that holds true all over, but it's what I've seen, even in places kept constantly clean.

The description says 1/2cc twice a day for a week, then 1/2cc once a week until weaned. Is it safe to assume that you disagree with the dosage? Or is it simply the source (ie:Hoegger)?

It hadn't occurred to me that the location made any difference. I'm up north and Hoegger is in the "deep south", but I figured cocci was cocci. Are there different protocols for different regions?

About whom are you speaking, Vicki? His mentor gave him the Hoegger's catalog but he didn't say where his mentor is and Hoegger's is in Georgia (hardly the frozen north).

I am in the frozen north and I do my own fecals.

Again, did I miss a post? I don't see anyone from the frozen north telling Paul to use it this way.

don't know if i'm in the frozen north?
still do 1cc per 10lb for five days, every 20 days. done it since i started with goats and it works for me. oh, and i fecal. ;) di-methox was not available last year and i used bactrim instead. worked fine too ;)
hoeggers just plain has the wrong directions. same with their herbal claims to be tested, if you look closer, done from a little girl and not very scientific correct.

No frogdog, there isn't different dosages on meds. There catalog is from Georgia the management info in it is not. It is found word for word on another website. Sulfa's are simply not dosed that way. Anyone using a protocoal like that does not have cocci to begin with to treat. Vicki

Sorry Heather didn't see there was a page two. I was talking to Paul and I was certainly not talking about you. Lets see, I am in a T shirt and capri's, so yep Susanne you are in the frozen north. Vicki

Hahah Susanne, I would consider Michigan frozen north too, I guess.

why do you all have to rob me my illusions?:rolleyes:
not fair LOL
i'm so sick of this cold and need spring with warmer weather.

Yeah, Susanne I think you guys usually have worse weather than we do way up here but we have it for longer!

After futher research I am going to take this time to retract the stament on the corid, taking advice from other local goat people it seemed to work well, however when i did more research I found out it was not a good product to use and the dosage that is required to make it effective can do more harm than good.

Cannon,
Would you show where you found the info? I would appreciate reading it first hand.

There sure isn't a consensus locally on this nasty issue. It goes from "not an issue" to "I'll deal with it as it occurs." :rolleyes: For the farmers with a thousand acres it might not be an issue and he is clueless as to reality of loss of life and productivity. :sleep: However for my five acres, I must be and I will be proactive. Also the little sweet beauties will not enter the six-month rotation barrier.

Vicki said, "Set your management, use it as gospel, then as you gain some knowledge then tweak what you are doing." among other jewells of advice (almost all of which I am following). I haven't decided on cocci prev yet as I have a few weeks to go, but I WILL NOT treat it as it occurs.

This has been an extremely informative thread. Thanks to everyone.
Pau

After futher research I am going to take this time to retract the stament on the corid, taking advice from other local goat people it seemed to work well, however when i did more research I found out it was not a good product to use and the dosage that is required to make it effective can do more harm than good.
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Perhaps if you would expound upon your decision it would help others? I certainly would not be doing anything to harm my stock, perhaps you have found something that I don't know about the drug I am using? Or are you saying you won't be using prevention period? Your in Georgia. You won't have problems the first years you have goats, but parasites build in your soil, it's inevitable you will eventaully see cocci damage or more hopeful on fecal before it causes the damage.

The problem with cocci is that the stunted pot bellied ethiopian looking ruined kids we all have seen, can grow out this way without one day of diarrhea.

It causes me concern when someone new who is not up north makes blanket decisions about thier stock when you do have to be able to learn as you go.

I used Deccox M for one year, I was not impressed, and I hated using something every day in the milk, and it was soo costly in the end. I also know for me with sulfa's it doesn't build the immunity in my kids as fast as Corid does, the first groups of kids sold out here before 3 weeks old, or on prevention and flown at 4 weeks old are fine, but it does cause me pain to see the 6 and 8 week olds leaving when I used sulfas, if not continued letter of the law, they simply would outbreak in their new homes. And feed throughs in your feed don't start working until your kids are actually eating the pound of pellets per 30 to 60 pounds of body weight, and none of my 30 pound 2 month olds eat anywhere near a pound of pellets!

So options? Vicki