Cocci prevention – how do you do it?

PurpleMartineer · #21 01/22/09, 01:35 PM

Is this the stuff I need? I only ask because it does not say it specifically treats coccidia. It says treats diseases caused by susceptible organisms....Just want to be clear its the correct one.

Can someone verify?

http://www.pbsanimalhealth.com/cgi-l...204+1232688244

Thanks!
Alisa~

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #22 01/22/09, 02:31 PM

Alisa, the amounts you have to use of a 12.5% sulfa is huge, there are better choices of sulfas than that, but yes you would need that big jug if you have even a handful of kids, it's dosed at an ounce per 100 pounds. Make sure you have good dosages from someone using exactly that drug, who fecals, because alot of dosages are simply made up, passed on by others until it sounds pretty darn good because it came from the internet...do they use it sucessfully? Probably not.

Thaiblue, it's once again what someone does..will they have losses to entero if they stop using antitoxin at birth or move from covexin 8 to CD&T? What does an antitoxin do to the immunity they should be getting from their dams colostrum? In pups we know Ieg immunity is nill when you start vaccine to early. Does it work the same in goats? What does a toxoid do for a kid given at 1 week old? Does it break maternal immunity?

See the problem is when something works, like nasal gen...folks swear if they give it in the nose of their goats before shows they never get pnemonia at shows. Problem is the vaccine carries NO vaccines for pnemonia goats get. Unless you are diagnosed with malignant edema, using Covexin 8 is overkill, giving vaccines once again goats don't get disease protection from. You would be better off vaccinating with Lysigin since you can't get malignant edema or gangrenous mastitis if your goats have immunity to staph aureous, what Lysigin gives you.

So always ask folks why....why do you do this? Do you fecal to even know it is working? How does an antitoxin help a kid at birth for entero? Now disease like ecoli, yes if you have been diagnosed with it, giving ecoli vaccine works really well at birth. But clostridiums? Can it work?

In the end though it's your farm, set your management and then tweak it as you learn more. It's all anyone can do. Vicki

betsy h. · #23 01/22/09, 05:44 PM

Remember, Sulmet/Albon is a coccidia-cide (kills the suckers dead). This is for treatment.

Corid (Amprolium), Bovatec (Lasalocid) deccox (decoquinate) are coccidia-stats (keeps the suckers at bay so the goats' own immune system deals with them.) These are for prevention.

The best preventative I have found is CalfPro- liquid Bovatec- that is easily dispersed in water and fed in your babies' milk bottle starting right after they get colostrum. CalfPro can be used in a situation for prevention as well. PBS animal supply has a gal. for $35- money well spent.

If they would release Baycox (toltrazuril) in the US, I would be a real happy camper- it is one dose coverage and the cocci-nasties are gone, period.

We start cocci treatment almost as soon as they can walk, :-)

The C&D anti-toxin is used immediately at birth because in our area, the weather in Mar.-May is contengent to wet and warm- blooms of the clostridium can pop up when you least know it, and no matter how much you've vaccianted mom, it's a battle to make sure no problems pop up when the weather changes.....Joyce Lazarro (Saanendoah.com)told me some years ago that she had never seen such problems anywhere else in the US.

Up in these hills, Black Leg is a problem- a cow at the TVA&I fair a couple of years ago went down from it, and nightfall she was dead. This was directly across from the goat barn. This is also why I do not show much any more. Why take a chance? Keep your livestock healthy by not exposing them to stuff and staying home.

LaManchaPaul · #24 01/27/09, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by betsy h.

Remember, Sulmet/Albon is a coccidia-cide (kills the suckers dead). This is for treatment.

Corid (Amprolium), Bovatec (Lasalocid) deccox (decoquinate) are coccidia-stats (keeps the suckers at bay so the goats' own immune system deals with them.) These are for prevention.

The best preventative I have found is CalfPro- liquid Bovatec- that is easily dispersed in water and fed in your babies' milk bottle starting right after they get colostrum. CalfPro can be used in a situation for prevention as well. PBS animal supply has a gal. for $35- money well spent.

If they would release Baycox (toltrazuril) in the US, I would be a real happy camper- it is one dose coverage and the cocci-nasties are gone, period.

We start cocci treatment almost as soon as they can walk, :-)

The C&D anti-toxin is used immediately at birth because in our area, the weather in Mar.-May is contengent to wet and warm- blooms of the clostridium can pop up when you least know it, and no matter how much you've vaccianted mom, it's a battle to make sure no problems pop up when the weather changes.....Joyce Lazarro (Saanendoah.com)told me some years ago that she had never seen such problems anywhere else in the US.

Up in these hills, Black Leg is a problem- a cow at the TVA&I fair a couple of years ago went down from it, and nightfall she was dead. This was directly across from the goat barn. This is also why I do not show much any more. Why take a chance? Keep your livestock healthy by not exposing them to stuff and staying home.

Oh mmy. .I worked on and sent a long response yesterday but HT apparently had a problem and lost it.

Mentor gave me a magazine. On page 73 of the Hoegger Supply catalog in bold print it says: “ Amprolium (Co-Rid) is not ever recommended for goats.”

I have almost decided to use their suggested regimen of Di-Methox 40%.

I use CD&T at one week and 21 days later. Isn’t this the same as C&D with tetanus?
Paul

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #25 01/27/09, 11:17 AM

Mentor gave me a magazine. On page 73 of the Hoegger Supply catalog in bold print it says: “ Amprolium (Co-Rid) is not ever recommended for goats.”

I have almost decided to use their suggested regimen of Di-Methox 40%.

I use CD&T at one week and 21 days later. Isn’t this the same as C&D with tetanus?
............................

Paul, paul paul!!!

What you really need to do is to go to goatkeeping 101 and just copy out my from birth to kidding, in which I take you from the birth of a kid until that kid has kids herself.

Hoeggers, although very well meaning and carries everything you need or think you need to have goats, is a very nanny and billy goat kind of place. CAE positive goats on their covers, I wouldn't be taking management advice from someone like that unless it's what you want your stock to look like.

You don't live in the frozen north, follow advice from those who dont' fecal and use prevention...are they really using prevention, is it working? How would you know?

Set your management, use it as gospel, then as you gain some knowledge then tweak what you are doing.

Overdose Corid and yes you can cause thiamin defficency in your goats, polio, but overdose anything orally and it does the same thing, because it kills rumen flora, and a healthy rumen is where all of the thiamin in a goats system in made.

I couldn't have what I have without Corid, prevention is key, if you are having to use sulfa's or whatever for treatment, just butcher the kid, she will never grow to her potential, milk to her potential or show to her potential with the ruined intestines cocci does to goats. The dosages for how I use my Corid is up in goatkeeping 101 of dairygoatinfo.com I start at day 20, because cocci has a 21 days lifecycle, they go on corid, I put it in their morning lambar of milk for 5 days. I like Corid because it only kills the most harmful lifecycle of cocci in the goats system, so the other lifecycles are left intact so the kids builds immunity. It's why also you want to fecal as you use it, if numbers get uncomfortably high I will hit the group again since you can't tell with even a microscope which lifecycle you are seeing. Corid works by blocking the absorption of thiamin from the cocci occyts, NOT THE GOAT!

If you are going to use Dimethox 40% use it like you should, once again go to my forum. Using it the crazy way from once again someone from the north, once a day then once a week, it isn't even how you use a sulfa, most in the south shouldn't even 1/2 the dose on days 2, 3, 4 and 5. And also know that using a sulfa for prevention means it's killing all the lifecycles, so your kids aren't building immunity.

Why do you use CD&T at 1 week. If you give your dams prevaccinations at 3 weeks (or about that ) before they kid, it stimulates the clostridium immunity your doe has and floods it in the colostrum....why now give a kid a toxoid that can break maternal immunity? Even in my saturated farm I give shots to kids much later. Yes CD&T is the two clostridiums that mostly effect what is called overeaters disease, or enterotoxemia and T is tetanus. You have to give the full dose and then on day 21 give a second dose to seal immunity, why it's dubious at best that you are giving it at 1 week old. Vicki

hoofinitnorth · #26 01/27/09, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaManchaPaul

I have CD&T in the frig to give to the kids 2cc within a week of birth. Isn’t this the same as C&D only with a tetanus vaccination?

There is toxoid and anti-toxin. Toxoid is prevention - usually it is CD&T to include tetanus. Anti-toxin is treatment or VERY short-term prevention and is usually just C&D. Tetanus anti-toxin is usually sold separately (but I don't know why!).

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaManchaPaul

I decided to get Coorid, but on page 73 of the Hoegger catalog in bold print I saw: “Amprolium (Co-Rid) is not ever recommended for goats.”

I have never heard this before now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaManchaPaul

Oh my how confusing.

Hoegger says: “since (cocci) is more of a problem with young ones we suggest a 7-day prevention program that includes a daily oral dose of 1cc of 40% diamethox beginning at 3 weeks of age….after the 7 days, give an oral dose of 1cc once a week until they are weaned.”

Not at all uncommon. Effective? Recommended? Don't know.
I understand they are only selling out the pre-manufactured 40% Di-Methox product and not making any more??? Is it true?

(thank goodness for email archives, HT ate this this AM)

#27 01/27/09, 01:01 PM

I've been thinking along the same lines... Di-Methox 40%.

My first 2 kidding "seasons" I didn't even know what cocci was. No problem... big, healthy kids for the freezer. The next year, a few of the kids were destined to stay. They looked/acted healthy, but seemed small (still didn't know about cocci). 2 of the doelings died and 1 completely stopped growing, the rest were meaty, but runty. Last year, we did cocci prevention using the you-mix powder. The kids (all for the freezer) grew perfectly. Some seem to be of the opinion that the powder is not as good... I don't know about that, but it wasn't the most convenient. The 40% sounds like it would be easy to use... not having to weigh everyone sounds great. Much simpler.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #28 01/27/09, 01:09 PM

The 40% sounds like it would be easy to use... not having to weigh everyone sounds great.
................................

You have to know weights on any medication. Any information you are reading that comes with one size fits all with meds, not vaccines is wrong. So you really think it doesn't matter that I have Nubians and you may have pygmys and someone else boers, the kid should all get the same amount? If it's too good to be true it's not. Vicki

hoofinitnorth · #29 01/27/09, 01:40 PM

I've observed that cocci in colder climates tends to be more of an issue in crowded herds, or crowded sections of herds. Not sure if that holds true all over, but it's what I've seen, even in places kept constantly clean.

#30 01/27/09, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

The 40% sounds like it would be easy to use... not having to weigh everyone sounds great.
................................

You have to know weights on any medication. Any information you are reading that comes with one size fits all with meds, not vaccines is wrong. So you really think it doesn't matter that I have Nubians and you may have pygmys and someone else boers, the kid should all get the same amount? If it's too good to be true it's not. Vicki

The description says 1/2cc twice a day for a week, then 1/2cc once a week until weaned. Is it safe to assume that you disagree with the dosage? Or is it simply the source (ie:Hoegger)?

It hadn't occurred to me that the location made any difference. I'm up north and Hoegger is in the "deep south", but I figured cocci was cocci. Are there different protocols for different regions?

hoofinitnorth · #31 01/27/09, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

You don't live in the frozen north, follow advice from those who dont' fecal and use prevention...are they really using prevention, is it working? How would you know?

About whom are you speaking, Vicki? His mentor gave him the Hoegger's catalog but he didn't say where his mentor is and Hoegger's is in Georgia (hardly the frozen north).

I am in the frozen north and I do my own fecals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Using it the crazy way from once again someone from the north, once a day then once a week, it isn't even how you use a sulfa, most in the south shouldn't even 1/2 the dose on days 2, 3, 4 and 5.

Again, did I miss a post? I don't see anyone from the frozen north telling Paul to use it this way.

susanne · #32 01/27/09, 03:37 PM

don't know if i'm in the frozen north?
still do 1cc per 10lb for five days, every 20 days. done it since i started with goats and it works for me. oh, and i fecal.

di-methox was not available last year and i used bactrim instead. worked fine too

hoeggers just plain has the wrong directions. same with their herbal claims to be tested, if you look closer, done from a little girl and not very scientific correct.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #33 01/27/09, 03:44 PM

No frogdog, there isn't different dosages on meds. There catalog is from Georgia the management info in it is not. It is found word for word on another website. Sulfa's are simply not dosed that way. Anyone using a protocoal like that does not have cocci to begin with to treat. Vicki

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #34 01/27/09, 03:46 PM

Sorry Heather didn't see there was a page two. I was talking to Paul and I was certainly not talking about you. Lets see, I am in a T shirt and capri's, so yep Susanne you are in the frozen north. Vicki

hoofinitnorth · #35 01/27/09, 04:53 PM

Hahah Susanne, I would consider Michigan frozen north too, I guess.

susanne · #36 01/27/09, 05:40 PM

why do you all have to rob me my illusions?

not fair LOL
i'm so sick of this cold and need spring with warmer weather.

hoofinitnorth · #37 01/27/09, 05:51 PM

Yeah, Susanne I think you guys usually have worse weather than we do way up here but we have it for longer!

Cannon_Farms · #38 01/27/09, 08:23 PM

After futher research I am going to take this time to retract the stament on the corid, taking advice from other local goat people it seemed to work well, however when i did more research I found out it was not a good product to use and the dosage that is required to make it effective can do more harm than good.

LaManchaPaul · #39 01/28/09, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannon_Farms

After futher research I am going to take this time to retract the stament on the corid, taking advice from other local goat people it seemed to work well, however when i did more research I found out it was not a good product to use and the dosage that is required to make it effective can do more harm than good.

Cannon,
Would you show where you found the info? I would appreciate reading it first hand.

There sure isn't a consensus locally on this nasty issue. It goes from "not an issue" to "I'll deal with it as it occurs."

For the farmers with a thousand acres it might not be an issue and he is clueless as to reality of loss of life and productivity.

However for my five acres, I must be and I will be proactive. Also the little sweet beauties will not enter the six-month rotation barrier.

Vicki said, "Set your management, use it as gospel, then as you gain some knowledge then tweak what you are doing." among other jewells of advice (almost all of which I am following). I haven't decided on cocci prev yet as I have a few weeks to go, but I WILL NOT treat it as it occurs.

This has been an extremely informative thread. Thanks to everyone.
Pau

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #40 01/28/09, 11:13 AM

After futher research I am going to take this time to retract the stament on the corid, taking advice from other local goat people it seemed to work well, however when i did more research I found out it was not a good product to use and the dosage that is required to make it effective can do more harm than good.
...........................

Perhaps if you would expound upon your decision it would help others? I certainly would not be doing anything to harm my stock, perhaps you have found something that I don't know about the drug I am using? Or are you saying you won't be using prevention period? Your in Georgia. You won't have problems the first years you have goats, but parasites build in your soil, it's inevitable you will eventaully see cocci damage or more hopeful on fecal before it causes the damage.

The problem with cocci is that the stunted pot bellied ethiopian looking ruined kids we all have seen, can grow out this way without one day of diarrhea.

It causes me concern when someone new who is not up north makes blanket decisions about thier stock when you do have to be able to learn as you go.

I used Deccox M for one year, I was not impressed, and I hated using something every day in the milk, and it was soo costly in the end. I also know for me with sulfa's it doesn't build the immunity in my kids as fast as Corid does, the first groups of kids sold out here before 3 weeks old, or on prevention and flown at 4 weeks old are fine, but it does cause me pain to see the 6 and 8 week olds leaving when I used sulfas, if not continued letter of the law, they simply would outbreak in their new homes. And feed throughs in your feed don't start working until your kids are actually eating the pound of pellets per 30 to 60 pounds of body weight, and none of my 30 pound 2 month olds eat anywhere near a pound of pellets!

So options? Vicki