Good raw milk info needed

Do you sterilize your pillow before you put your head on it at night? There are roughly six hundred species of bacteria in your mouth ten minutes after you brush your teeth. The last serious bacterial infection I had was given to me in a hospital. My partner is the clinic manager in the vererinary department of a major cancer research hospital, with abour fifty thousand animals. One of their top veterinarians once put a dog on antibiotics for two weeks because she saw blood in the dog's urine. The dog was in heat. The anti-raw milk lobby is a function of the dairy industry, NOT science. Remember Watergate? The bag of cash found in the plane crash? It was a bribe from the dairy lobby on it's way to the Nixon campaign.

Madfarmer

Yes but you are mostly talking about established herds with goats at our farms for generations when most on this forum are milking goats for the first time....they have just purchased these goats. We know the health of the stock we raise if we test, they don't because they believe the weston price, mercola etc sites that tell them that all raw milk is better for them than grocery store milk.

She said she would not drink milk at a dairy, even though we know in reality dairies know what is in the milk because they test, few folks who just milk a few goats do, and they are milking newly purchased goats they know nothing about.

Anna S. I am sure you knew what I was talking about, I also know that you and others on DHIR who are on here do test. We are wildly the minority.

Morningstar, yes from your own livestock....the OP does not have any 'own livestock'.

Purple: I use LSU, the info is at dairygoatinfo.com in goatkeeping 101. Once you have no more colostrum...which is easy to figure out, just put some of the milk in a coffee cup and nuke it in the microwave, if it is just boiled milk with no yellow eraser bits (over heated colostrum) than you can test it for subclinical staph etc....LSU has been doing free testing of milk for a couple of years now. Heating your milk to 165 pasteurization doesn't make goat milk goaty, makes it taste like cooked milk, just like cow milk is canned and tastes like cooked milk, it doesn't turn cowy. Milk tastes goaty from poor handling, ill goats, and mastitis.

Yes I drink raw milk from my goats. But I also drink raw milk from my goats I tested.

The point of my post was that this vet relative is technically correct. I of course like Ernie, wouldn't get advice from a family member like this because this is my business, I could talk her under the table with her scare tactics about goat disease. And unless you test you can't see that your goat is healthy. I am sure more women would have mastitis also if they lived in dirty barns, and were milked by hand by others. To me, and yes I breast fed all my children, you can't put human emotions into your goat business....so neither can you make the point that nursing children is the same as raw milk from a goat.....well except for the goat's nursing kid.

Don't believe all the hype, there is just as much marketing going on (by people who have never milked anything in their life for 10 months) in the raw milk circles as their is the other side who wants us to stop selling raw milk. Each side has their crazy fundamentalists, it's like that in everything now days.

Test your milk, until then pasteurise it for small kids, the elderly, the ill and pregnant moms. Have excellent milking habits that rich or poor you can continue to do everyday. Makes little sense to have such complicated milking routines that really doesn't have anything to do with the health of the udder or the quality of the milk...really a clean teat, clean container and the fastest you can cool that milk down in a clean indoor environment the better...the rest is busy work Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

I suggest only getting milk from a licensed dairy. The milk will have been tested by the Dept. of Agri.
There are only a few illnesses that can be transmitted from goat to human and only two of those through milk. TB and brucellosis . A licensed dairy would have the herd tested for these, even though there has not been a case of TB in something like 20 yrs in goats in the USA.
The mammary glands do a great job of filtering just like a human. Even milk from a CAE positive or Cl positive is usually safe. Again licensed dairy would show that on a test.
Here, like any commercial food factory, once a month samples are taken and tested. Once a year each side of the goats udder are tested for a slew of different bacterias.

They are discussing the somatic cell counts in the milk

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/DS120#TABLE_2

in this chart it shows the different levels and which to be concerned over.

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SuzyHomemaker
rtfmfarm.com
LaMancha & Nubian goats

We have a licensed dairy--actually we also have a licensed milk plant which means that we pasteurize our milk and process it into regular, chocolate milk and yogurt and kefir.

We also sell raw to customers who have been out to our place and seen for themselves how we do things and the health of our animals. It is the *minimal* amount of involvement that I think anyone should make before buying raw from someone.

Our milk is tested--raw for our raw license as well as pasteurized. (By the state health department, not the Dept of agriculture. At least this is how it is done in Texas.)

While I believe that raw milk is healthier *for most people*, I also believe that drinking raw milk *can* also be taking a risk--but such is true in all of life...apparently even eating spinach and salsa is a risk in the US these days. There are diseases that can be transmitted in milk from the animal. One of the worst is listeriosis as it will often prove fatal for infants (in the womb and outside the womb) and small children.

"Don't believe all the hype, there is just as much marketing going on (by people who have never milked anything in their life for 10 months) in the raw milk circles as their is the other side who wants us to stop selling raw milk. Each side has their crazy fundamentalists, it's like that in everything now days." Amen, Vicki!

What does bother me greatly is the apparent lack of scholarship regarding raw milk. I understand the reason, after all much scholarship and research is govt funded and the govt is unlikely to invest money in what they have a vested interest in proclaiming unsafe. This is unfortunate and not true scholarship. However we have poured over the information out there and unfortunately it is not very creditable. Many of the websites basically consist of anecdotal evidence, claims not backed up by any footnoting of reputable research or references to Hippocrates and other ancient references that support (raw) milk. I am sorry but these same people also believed in "humours" in the body and bloodletting, lol! We are hard pressed to present ourselves as a reasonable, safe alternative when the claims that we make are not adequately, scientifically documented. Telling me that the teeth of ancient or primitive societies were fabulous is all well and fine but hardly a proof that raw milk is wonderful. (especially when archeology often reveals remains of individuals with teeth so bad that they may have contributed to their death! One such example can be seen here http://www.egyptianmyths.net/djedmum.htm))

Please understand that I am PRO raw milk. Much of our income comes from selling it! However when we were trying to compile data for a brochure that we could distribute at the farmers market to those who asked about the difference between our raw and our pasteurized we were unable to find sufficient data that was not suspect, being inflammatory, sensationalist or just simply poorly documented. I wish we could but we can't. Many websites/books/publications make incredible claims, but the documentation is sorely lacking.

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LeeAnne, wife of Tim's youth, homeschooling mother of twelve seventh generation Texans.

Swede Farm Dairy

Dairy Berries

"I have read that you are much less likely to get sick from your own animals then from another herd because you already share some bacteria."

I believe the above statement to be true because you are handling your own animals and know that you will be drinking that milk so 1)you are able to be scrupulously clean and 2)you can see when an animal is ill and their milk suspect.

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LeeAnne, wife of Tim's youth, homeschooling mother of twelve seventh generation Texans.

Swede Farm Dairy

Dairy Berries

"Raw milk from a healthy human (or goat) should have very low bacteria counts, yes?"

Well yes...but the average healthy human isnt having milk expressed twice a day by someone else then going out to the area where they poop and pee and laying down in it without a bra on.

At least most of the nursing moms that I are familiar with.

And the bacteria that might be in human milk would not be bacteria that could kill someone who is very young, very old or immuno compromised such as undergoing chemo.

Again, I believe raw milk is good, I drink it, my family gets it and we sell it. But I think what the OP wanted was academic research from a reputable source and visceral arguments based anecdotal evidence just aint gonna cut it!

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LeeAnne, wife of Tim's youth, homeschooling mother of twelve seventh generation Texans.

Swede Farm Dairy

Dairy Berries

OH DUH! I feel dumb now. Hehehehe, I was just not thinking counts, even though that was the topic.

On getting milk from licensed dairies so that it might be cleaner/safer... don't be fooled. That means nothing. It's like saying your hand cream is "tested by dermatologists." Great. So what where the RESULTS? It doesn't say, "clinically proven effective." They test and then they re-test until it passes and many of the "pass/fail" lines aren't that difficult to cross.

Up here I have seen the animals from a few of the supposed licensed dairies. They are not animals from which I would personally drink. I have also seen some of their facilities. Some are cleaner than others, some have healthier animals than others, but most cut corners in places I would never dream and some are flat out dishonest and untrustworthy. Who know what really goes on there. No, thank you. I will stick with my hand-milked, small herd where I know the animals and their health day-in and day-out. It's another reason I don't buy commercial milk products/colostrums/replacers of any kind - I don't know from where they came and I don't know what's in them (let alone what's not).

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Heather Fair
Fair Skies Nigerian Dwarf dairy goats
All I Saw Farm
Wasilla, Alaska
http://HoofinItNorth.com
http://FairSkiesAlaska.com

Be aware that not all dairies are the same. We have 35 does, mostly our original show herd and their daughters and granddaughters. We milk them, each and every one, ourselves, no employees, by hand no less. We are scrupulous about cleanliness and invite all of our milk customers to come visit the dairy whether they buy raw or pasteurized from us. We are very proud of what we do and have absolutely nothing to hide. We do not welcome pasteurization because we can get away with less clean milking procedures, we welcome pasteurization because it allows us legal access into the farmer's markets. We only pasteurize what we would sell (and drink and feed to our children) raw.

Likewise not all home herds are clean and safe. I have seen animals fed whatever is cheapest at the feed store on the corner, in obvious poor health with milking done in a manner that turned my stomach. Yet their milk is sold to friends and family and is "clean" because it isnt from a "dairy, because they are all dirty".

Unfortunately, though, the bottom line is that the OP asked for reputable documentation for raw milk. I would love to see it, because I want to use it to to promote our dairy. But there simply isn't the documentation out there that will pass muster with me as a midwife or with my largely professional customer base. I wish there was, but if it exists I haven't found it yet.

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LeeAnne, wife of Tim's youth, homeschooling mother of twelve seventh generation Texans.

Swede Farm Dairy

Dairy Berries

Excellent posts LeeAnn. You simply articulate much better what I am trying to say

Exactly Heather, the same pessimisim you have for liscensed dairies, are exactly the same for unliscensed dairies and home-milked goats. You wouldn't buy milk from any without visiting, the original OP should also not purchase goats from any without visiting, and testing.

All of us have seen, from big dairies to small hobby homes, just the most awful of conditions for the goats, and the goats themselves. On one hand I think the only way to improve it is regulation...on the other hand they don't regulate the right thing, the actual health of the goat, only the milk they produce. They test for things that aren't even relavant in goats.

So we make sure our customers are educated, and why to my customers I recommend LeeAnn Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

Humans do not usually sleep or nurse in a barn. The goats udder is on the barn floor all night. I don't see how this is a sane comparison. Sure, you wash it, but the barn is not, no matter how clean you think you are, a sanitary environment for an infant. A little fleck of dust or hair might introduce e-coli or other bacteria that would be very harmful to a newborn's undeveloped immunity and digestive system.

I wouldn't dream of giving a young child, let alone a newborn, unpasteurized milk, unpasteurized honey, or unpasteurized juice. Many have and have regretted it.

Pasteurizing is a simple process. And no, it does not make the milk taste "goatie."

of course human infant and breast milk isn't an exact comparison. but it points out that there is nothing inherently wrong with raw milk. the problem comes in when the animals are sick or the milk is handled improperly or bacteria is introduced in some way. things that you can personally control to a large extent in a home milker and something you have no control of if you were to buy raw milk from a large dairy.

in a big dairy that one sick animal or one bit of improperly handled milk is generally mixed in a big tank with all the other animals milk, stored and shipped to places that may or may not keep temps correct and sold to homes that may or may not handle it properly. am I right? that to me combined with the large number of animals makes it exponentially more likely to be contaminated. I am not saying that all home milkers have healthier milk than all real/hypothetical raw milk dairys but there is alot more room for error in a big dairy imo. and I stand by my decision that I will drink only pasteurized commercial milk.

testing is not guarantee of safety either in a dairy or a home enviroment. seems to me that the reason for testing for all the communicable disease or pathogens is actually likely spurred by the sheer number of incidence of these diseases and pathogens in a large dairy. more animals, communal equipment, pooling of milk, less individual care = more likelyhood of spread of disease.

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A mystery is not an explanation..... on the contrary....no sooner is a myth forged than, in order to stand it needs another myth to support it.

It's not pessimism, but reality, unfortunately. Yes, totally agree with:

For some reason we have a hard time energizing our supporters to get the law changed. It really shouldn't be so hard because we do have a lot of support. The trouble comes when the "big" anything beats us out. Hopefully we're wising up and cleaning up our politicians so that we can get back to serving the best interests of the people and not lining certain parties' pockets. How's that for optimism?

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Heather Fair
Fair Skies Nigerian Dwarf dairy goats
All I Saw Farm
Wasilla, Alaska
http://HoofinItNorth.com
http://FairSkiesAlaska.com

"For some reason we have a hard time energizing our supporters to get the law changed. It really shouldn't be so hard because we do have a lot of support."

We have seen this as well. We have had to do a lot of educating of customers at the markets because many of them were told by the people who they know who sell raw milk under the table that it is a 'market rule' or a 'city ordinance'. For some reason they do not want to accept that it is state law! We tell them "listen. We dont like the law, we want the law changed. Would you be willing to contact your state legislator?" and we get blank stares in return. They ask us to deliver and when we tell them it isnt legal they press us to break the law...because it is too far for them to drive. They want us to jeopardize our family's security but they don't want to drive less than an hour to pick it up. So...if driving an hour is too much work, they sure won't make the effort to call their legislator. So I have to conclude that the right to buy it legally really doesn't mean much to them.

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LeeAnne, wife of Tim's youth, homeschooling mother of twelve seventh generation Texans.

Swede Farm Dairy

Dairy Berries

DQ, does not even the home milker with 3 goats pool their milk? I don't think most are as far away from the 'dairy' dirty five letter word here, than you think.

Milk in a dairy goes from teat to bulk tank immediatly, is the home milker cooling their milk that fast or are they finishing chores?

Just playing devils advocate here, I do agree with you.

Anybody milking 9 goats a day, twice a day for 10 months who has a milking machine and uses it only for goat number 10 when fresh has help on the farm...children or something. And I meant the sweat off your brow, not your hands...LOL! Year 10, that milking machine will be working ovetime! And really? never a hair, never milk on your hands? Never? Na.... my girls are milking with winter hair most of the time, no way could you hand milk hairy goats and not get something in the milkpail. Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

I certainly I figure there is contamination in home milkers and milk. I have picked hair out of milk no biggie, if I picked a hair out of a bottle of raw milk that I purchased whose history is unknown that had been kept at who knows what temp for how long..... I would be grossed out. I understand you are just playing devils advocate and I can see both sides and play both sides. but pooling 3 goats milk in a pitcher in your fridge (that will cool far faster I would think than hundreds of gallons in a bulk tank) from animals you have bred yourself or had for years seems far less likely a source of contaminate than a dairy. I don't think dairys are bad or a four letter word but there are jsut some realities when producing any food in great quantity be it milk or spinach and some of that reality is that the risk for contamination, poor handling (if you have ever had employees you know how this goes). or in the packaging, shipment, storage etc... its just the nature of the beast. Maybe I am just a control freak. picking my goats hair out of my milk that I jsut put in the fridge and will drink tommorow is just different.

I pasteurized when my daughter was very young because that is what I am comfortable with. I don't think raw milk is the panacea that it is often promoted as and I agree that the homogenization of commercial milk is the real problem. the anti microbial features of raw milk begin to lose their potency after 24 hrs from my research so I can't enlist that as a benefit of commercial raw milk sales. and the bacteria and enzymes present may or may not have any beneficial effect on humans. raw milk should be legalized because it is a personal choice based on individual situations.

ps I do chores before I milk.

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A mystery is not an explanation..... on the contrary....no sooner is a myth forged than, in order to stand it needs another myth to support it.

Hey! Thanks everyone for your replies
Yes, I will be testing my single doe's milk. I will pastuerize until I get the results and possibly after. I'll take your word for it that it doesnt tast goaty! I thought the heat broke down the capritic-something-or-others causing goaty flavour, but whatever, I will try it and if I dont think it tastes goaty I will probably keep pastuerizing because I am not anti-pastuerization, just would prefer not to add that extra step on a healthy tested animal and especially if there were some health benefit to drinking raw.

I assume there are treatments for milk that doesnt pass test? Antibiotics can clear most problems up? Is there anything viral which cannot be treated which would cause one to get rid of an animal (other than CAE).

I do understand that there are extremists to every issue. I can see it everywhere and expect raw milk to rate right up there with homebirthing (which I would have done if I would have been able to find a midwife who would have been able to attend! Sidenote: illegal in NC)....anyway....

So, I suspect the way to get the goats to keep cleaner, if at all possible, is to have a nice high spot they could lay about on, something that might lay at a slight angle (like a sheet of reinforced plywood on legs) so poop berries might roll off. Does the benefit of goat poop being less messy than a cow on the milkstand get outweighed by the fact that a cow will stand on pasture all day and not lay around with her teats in the toilet? Just curious, or making an offhand statement...not sure which...

Thanks Vicki for the LSU tip. I will definately do that.

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Chris

2 dogs, 1 parrot, 2 horses, colorful flock of egg-layers, peafowl, dairy goats, porchful of hummers, and a garden full of monarchs

wanna bet????? come visit
goats udder are shaved and the udder/teats are clean before milking. milk room is closed and has concrete floor. milk is not pooled but in 1/2 gallon bottles filtered and cooled immediately in ice water bath the milk room, before going in the house. since in half gallon bottles, milk is cold very fast. goats have clean pens, witch prevents soiling the udder too.
preventing sweat from eyebrows, (i don't sweat that easy ) if this should happen, easy with a bandera.
i would not even try to milk a hairy goat udder, cross
i admit, this is not the normal homesteading situation and i also always advice people to visit before buying or make boarding contracts.
the look of the goats can tell you a lot about management. the overall impression you get if you enter the farm, even before seeing the barns, mirrors the management too.

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Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

Susanne, if you want to keep goats in our climate (Alaska) and milk, you don't dare shave udders this time of year. It was -29F at my place this AM and the stalls are neither insulated nor heated. MUCH warmer inside the stalls, but the girls have to go outside to the stand where I milk. You wash it like any other udder, or if you are a little looser about it, you at least brush them down. Yep, keeping the bedding spotless is a must if you don't wash. I prefer to wash but I have to be VERY careful because water, of any temperature, freezes just about instantly in this weather. Ouch on my hands means even bigger ouch on their teats. OUCH.

For the OP: Brucellosis, from my understanding, was a big scare that was really not based on goats spreading the infection through milk, but more likely based on milkers coughing into the pails.

One thing to consider: why do you think the large commercial operations selling cow milk (I'm talking the BIG companies that are available regionally, if not nationally) fortify their milk?

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Heather Fair
Fair Skies Nigerian Dwarf dairy goats
All I Saw Farm
Wasilla, Alaska
http://HoofinItNorth.com
http://FairSkiesAlaska.com

Regarding fortification--it is an option, not a requirement.

One reason that many small places DONT fortify is to avoid havingto mess with the metered pump, etc. At least that is one reason why WE dont!

"but pooling 3 goats milk in a pitcher in your fridge (that will cool far faster I would think than hundreds of gallons in a bulk tank)"

Having done both...you'd be amazed how fast a bulk tank can cool and how long it takes that pitcher to cool down if you are not using an ice bath!

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LeeAnne, wife of Tim's youth, homeschooling mother of twelve seventh generation Texans.

Swede Farm Dairy

Dairy Berries