Interesting offer...too much for me to handle?

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #21 12/21/08, 10:46 PM

She may be talking something as awful as 1/2 smaller than the other half, or as something as simple as a pocket in the fore. In show circuits that are heavy with ND like out here, you can pick up really nice milkers, in alot of breeds, that can go on to be shown in poorer quality show circuits but couldn't win her way out of 5th here. And although she has this fault, bred to the right buck her daughters may not.

She also can't predict if this doe will have another single or not, to me it would be worth the price, but I would ask her about this other $50. Wow! If she had triplets she would be free

vicki

beccachow · #22 12/21/08, 11:40 PM

Awww, triplets...*sigh...

CookingPam777 · #23 12/22/08, 06:08 PM

Hehehe it's hard! I have to though. Ask anyone I would keep every one if I could

. And plus I want to help I know how it is to loose babies and would love to help! Well I consider her a rescue goat because I know someone who does not care for her goats well. She was worm ridden half starved and everything else. She is to health now. I have talked to her about it. She is not purposely doing it. She does not worm with a good wormer. And she feeds a herd and this one was getting picked on so they of coarse get less. I got my doe in VA. I will contact you when she has them! Hope you have a great goat experience from here on out!

jordan · #24 12/22/08, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

She may be talking something as awful as 1/2 smaller than the other half, or as something as simple as a pocket in the fore. In show circuits that are heavy with ND like out here, you can pick up really nice milkers, in alot of breeds, that can go on to be shown in poorer quality show circuits but couldn't win her way out of 5th here. And although she has this fault, bred to the right buck her daughters may not.

She also can't predict if this doe will have another single or not, to me it would be worth the price, but I would ask her about this other $50. Wow! If she had triplets she would be free

vicki

A poor udder with poor capacity and bad conformation is a poor purchase! I don't recommend that anyone knowingly purchase a poor animal (bred or not). Be patient and keep looking. This doe is not a deal even at $200. As someone relatively new to goats, you would be looking at quite a few generations of trial and error before she could be improved upon and no single buck can correct everything that is wrong with her.
Invest your money elsewhere. You can find a fairly good doe for the money she's asking. Start out right and buy the best you can afford. This doe is not it.
I'm sorry if this is harsh, but way too many breeders prey on a newbies ignorance and it just isn't right (I'm not saying that this breeder is, since I haven't seen the communications). Find a breeder who is willing to educate you on what to look for in an animal and help you make the best purchase you can (even if it isn't one of theirs).
Lois

powderhooves · #25 12/22/08, 08:57 PM

WoW....I should have invested in dairy goats. I figure I'll get from $100-$250 depending on the color on my angora kids. After the new property fencing, enclosure fencing, big horse barn, etc., etc., etc. ....did I say, "etc.?" we may be able to make $1.50 in about 30 years.

thaiblue12 · #26 12/22/08, 10:08 PM

Are you looking for a milker? I thought you were looking for a pet for you and a companion for ------. If so I would pass on this lady's offer.
I did look on petfinder for you and they have babies in NY nothing closer to you. But I would be wary of rescue animals too. My daughter and I went to see some and let me tell you we treated our clothes and shoes like they were contaminated. We walked barefoot straight into the house, our clothes went right into the washer and our shoes into a bleach solution. They had swollen knees, some had no front hooves and etc. Breaks your heart but taking them home would be worse.
You can check www.tnol.com not sure if you have it in your area. Local dairies might have kids to sell pretty cheap since they want the mom's milk and not the kids. If you look on craig's list I would check them out very carefully, I am wary of sellers on there. Or you can wait for Cookingpam's doe to drop

I wish I could box you up a baby or two but I am too far from you.
I hope you find a healthy baby soon.

togg75 · #27 12/22/08, 10:50 PM

Caprikorn Farms is in your area I think and they have some of the best Saannen in the world......seriously if I was in the market for Saannen it would be caprikorn or pat hendrickson (rockery run).

togg75 · #28 12/22/08, 10:54 PM

Good Greif.....Cheri Glen Farms is in Maryland. Girl you have one of the best farms right in your back yard. http://www.cherryglenfarm.com/letter...boutCherryGlen

Nigerian try this
http://andda.org/membership.html

beccachow · #29 12/23/08, 01:28 AM

I'll check out the links, thanks!

Yeah, I'm only looking for a pet, no milking, showing (at least not yet) or eating. I'd like a doe so that my options can stay open, if I get a nice doe and decide to breed her (only for more pets), I could. I'm not thinking I would want a buck as wild as ------ is, and he is a wether!!!

I think Trinket will still be around if she is really asking $400 for her, so I will take a bit more time and see what else I can find. I have had so many PM's from you wonderful people that if it all works out, I will have QUITE a herd!

. That would be nice.

Thai blue, I wasn't the one who bought Gracie, but I am almost positive it was a craig'slist thing. I'm steering clear of that too, now. I guess they have goat mills same as puupy mills

.

kerrinatoz · #30 12/23/08, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beccachow

I could ask.

Her latest e-mail says $400 for her if I keep the baby, $200 if I give baby back. I am thinking this is way steep, unless her parents were uber-champions, but if she's not show-quality, would that matter? As much as I like the idea, I might have to pass on this due to price. I can't imagine who she bred her to, to bump the price another $50, since she said it would be $350 bred to any buck of choice. I will see if she will work on the price. Said the doe has freshened twice and delivers singles.

One more: would whatever is wrong with the udder (unshowable udder?) affect her nursing, or is that a cosmetic thing?

Hmm in New England, a really good price for a doe alone and unbred for a quality ND is $300, babies as pet doelings (no papers) would sell for $200, wethered males for $125. So to me, $400 to keep all babies is very reasonable. It does depend on your direct market in MD. I do think that this breeder seems very upfront about her goats pluses and minueses so do ask her to assess her own goat. One thing, why do you want goats? You should ask are you doing it for pets, for the milk to show or to sell off the kid crop? These are important questions, it says about this particular doe that she lacks milk volume so if you wanted her for color and to sell pet kids it may be fine but you may have to bottlefeed the kids if she cannot make enough milk for them. Obviously if you were doing it for the milk for your home i would not think she would be a good fit. I do think that this farm does appear to be reputable. No matter who you buy from, i would suggest that you make sure all goats have tested negatively for CAE and CL and find out if they run a closed herd or not. I do think that getting a junior or senior doe that is bred for the spring is an excellent way to start. I started with a pair of 18 month old first freshners with a breeding service included and it was an excellent way to start! I had the time to learn so by the time the kids came, I was ready to care for them. It is key to be able to trust and take advice from the farm you buy them from as well. Good luck, goats are such an excellent adventure!

hoofinitnorth · #31 12/23/08, 10:59 AM

Kerrinatoz and Jordan have excellent points.

Jordan, it may help if you would specify the conformational faults on this doe. I can't get the picture to load from here and I don't remember what I saw last time.

beccachow · #32 12/23/08, 01:17 PM

Yes, I would love that if someone wants to do it for fun (the conformational faults). It is an excellent way for me to learn what I am looking for.

The second doe, the one right under her? It is apparent even to a rookie like me that there is something way out of line on those back legs.

I won't be milking, either, and I DO intend to bottle feed the next baby to hit hoof on this farm, but I want to know that the mom can support her own kids. I can get a cross and be happy, I ould get a purebred and be happy. Now that the grief is starting to ease a bit about poor little Gracie and Sandy, I'm able to take a step back and weigh this. I was so desperate to fill that hole I was setting myself up for another heartbreak, if you know what I mean. You guys have convinced me to at take a step back. I will e-mail her tonight and see if I can get clarification on the issues you guys have brought up, like what exactly is wrong with her udder, who she was bred to, who her dam was, and why the extra $50.

Goats are about $125-$200 around here for pet quality, so I guess a bred doe would run about the price she quoted me, now that I think about it.

Cygnet · #33 12/23/08, 04:27 PM

On the second doe, Skunk, I think we're seeing the outline of TWO back legs, both black.

She's still camped out behind and her hocks are weird, but I don't think she's as bad as she looks.

Re: transporting goats -- as long as they're calm, they'd do fine. If they panic, be aware that even a medium sized goat can potentially go through a SUV window. I had a six month old Nubian wether crack the window in the tailgate of a Jeep Cherokee when he panicked and tried to jump through it because I was carrying his brother away. He was NOT that big -- a large armful, about the same size as my aussie.

I transport my pack goat in the back of my truck all the time, and he's in there for 3-4 hours at a time. I avoid transporting in really hot or stormy weather, but otherwise, don't worry about it. I might offer him a bottle of water (he'll drink bottled water from the bottle) if I stop somewhere, but it's really not a big deal. However, he's ubercalm and unflappable.

jordan · #34 12/23/08, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beccachow

Yes, I would love that if someone wants to do it for fun (the conformational faults). It is an excellent way for me to learn what I am looking for.

The second doe, the one right under her? It is apparent even to a rookie like me that there is something way out of line on those back legs.

I won't be milking, either, and I DO intend to bottle feed the next baby to hit hoof on this farm, but I want to know that the mom can support her own kids. I can get a cross and be happy, I ould get a purebred and be happy. Now that the grief is starting to ease a bit about poor little Gracie and Sandy, I'm able to take a step back and weigh this. I was so desperate to fill that hole I was setting myself up for another heartbreak, if you know what I mean. You guys have convinced me to at take a step back. I will e-mail her tonight and see if I can get clarification on the issues you guys have brought up, like what exactly is wrong with her udder, who she was bred to, who her dam was, and why the extra $50.

Goats are about $125-$200 around here for pet quality, so I guess a bred doe would run about the price she quoted me, now that I think about it.

Just going by the pic and I'm going to try to explain in a way that someone not familiar with the proper descriptive terms will still understand...

One of the most noticeable things is her arched top line (she's lower at the withers than her hips/rump). Her rump is steep (at an angle like this / instead of more level from the hips back to the pins). Her front end assembly is not good - little extension on the brisket (should look like a backward L), shoulder doesn't appear to blend well into the withers and appears somewhat rounded in the photo (instead of sharp). Her front legs should be set naturally beneith the withers but appear a little forward of them instead (I'm not explaining this one well!). In the pic, she appears to be loose at the elbow (the elbow should be tight up against her side). Her neck is short (not long and dairy looking as it should be).
Overall, she is just not a balanced, dairy looking doe.

If she had an excellent udder and her conformation looked like this, I would say try her at $200. Over time, conformation can be more easily fixed on the offspring than a bad udder. But without a well attached, capacious udder with a strong medial, (still not sure what the breeder meant by "not a showable" udder) you would have to be willing to cull (send to auction) a heck of alot of her kids because a serious breeder wouldn't buy them and it wouldn't be right to pass on your problem kids to another newbie.

I honestly feel that there are alot better choices out there and as I said before... why not start with the best you can afford and leave your breeding options open?

Vicki also had a very valid point about the lack of testing info on her site and I would insist on seeing whole herd test results if you choose to buy this doe.
There are "big name" ND herds out there that do have a long history of CAE that people relatively new to the breed may not be aware of.
I hope this helps.
Lois

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #35 12/23/08, 07:44 PM

Where are you going to buy an E udder for $200? A + doe is worth $200, even a plus can be an excellent milker just lacking attachment. I sure wouldn't want to be making a living with prices most of you quote for your stock. But back to the health of the herd, I would expect the nice stock she bought came with health guarantees, I would want the same for her culls. Vicki

jordan · #36 12/23/08, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Where are you going to buy an E udder for $200? A + doe is worth $200, even a plus can be an excellent milker just lacking attachment. I sure wouldn't want to be making a living with prices most of you quote for your stock. But back to the health of the herd, I would expect the nice stock she bought came with health guarantees, I would want the same for her culls. Vicki

You're not going to get an excellent udder for $200. but you can sometimes get an extremely good udder with so-so conformation for that. I was trying to get a point across that this doe is not a good choice because she doesn't have either going for her. The breeder herself said she wasn't a good milker.

As for the health guarantees, I'd lay you odds some of them didn't. Many people assume that breeders of a certain size or one's with a recognized name, test and share whole herd results, and because of that assumption the buyer doesn't always demand that they see them. Sad, but true.