Goats vs sheep

I plan on raising rabbits (and chickens) also, especially if I can find away to raise them healthfully without pellets. I have raised rabbits off and on for years. MaggieJ over on the "rabbits" forum had been working a lot on "pelletless" rabbit raising. I won't have the time to collect fresh greens to the extent she does, but it looks promising.

To all those whom posted earlier to whom I did not directly reply.

Thanks for your input.

I responded with some additional information because of some questions you had made. I have thought about raising a few of each, to see which worked out better. I would want to pasture them together, though, and that concerns be about the supplemntry minerals they would need.. It seems goats need a supplement with lots of copper, which would be toxic to sheep... Would any of you care to comment on raising the two together and how you approach that problem?

You can raise an extra goat or lamb and butcher it out yourself to use as dog food. I do that and supplement some actual store-bought stuff once in awhile, plus I feed them a lot of table scraps, which in my house constitutes eggs, rice, and fresh veggies.

Llama's are expensive and very niche. A donkey as a guard animal is way too much, and not, I believe, as effective as they need to be. Plus, those increase your costs significantly in the winter unless you're producing your own hay. There's not grass all year round.

Don't depend on fences. Stuff gets in. They'll work at it for weeks in the night until they figure out a way, or make a way. One of the best prohibitors I've found is, every night, walking the fencelines with one or both of my dogs. Do it about an hour or so after dark with a shotgun. It's not a lot of fun in the winter, but it becomes somewhat of a ritual. I put my shotgun over my shoulder on its sling, light up my pipe and we go for a walk in the dark. It's very relaxing, and there's nothing that predators fear more than man.

Running a farm takes a lot of labor. There's nothing 'automatic'. The more animal diversity you have, while better for the land, the more work you create for youself. Start small and build up, as opposed to starting out with every one of your plans and dreams. Even though you have the space, the land may not actually support the standard number of livestock that the county extension offices tell you it should. Because the previous owners were "horse people", they kept 7 horses and boarded 4 more ... all in about 4 acres of pasture. That 4 acres was an absolute mess. No grass, nothing but weeds, and very poor soil fertility. It has taken a long time with goats and cows to bring that property back to sustainable levels, and I think it'll take longer yet.

Siome nice people have sent me some great Links. It may take me weeks to get through all of them... but there is lots of information, that I knew I would need and had not gotten around to seeking yet. Thank you all

If you plan to raise rabbits, there's your dog food for a LGD. I can't tell you which to raise (goats or sheep) -- my experience with meat goats is minimal, and I have no experience with hair sheep at all, other than watching a flock of Barbados Black-bellies about half-way between home and town. I just want to say that you are NEVER too old to learn new things! If you USE wool (does your wife knit?) or if you USE dairy products, why not go ahead and figure them into your equation? It's not hard at all to learn to make cheese; shearing sheep is a bit of a chore, and processing the wool is time-consuming, but once you are retired, presumably you'll have more time to spend. That would open your options up to more different animals (more choices -- just what you needed, right?). I've read that Gulf Coast Native sheep are pretty parasite resistant -- if you were willing to deal with the wool, that might be a breed to consider.

Kathleen

I have recieved two suggestions that I use meat from some of the animals I raise to help feed a guard dog.

I would be extremely hesitant to ever feed a dog any meat from an animal that I wanted him to guard or that he would be around. I don't want a dog that is going to eat my chickens, my rabbits, or my sheep/goats. I think it would be asking too much of an animal to give him a taste for any type of fresh meat, especially one I (or the neighbors) are raising

I would give him fresh coyote meat..... given the option

We own 40 acres of mostly woods, and formerly had horses on Extremely Poor Pasture. We just bought our first goats - 2 100% NZ kikos and 1 american purebred kiko, all doelings 6-8 months old. So far they seem to be doing pretty well..

My dad's been wanting animals here for a long time but just didn't know what to get. Then we heard about meat goats and started reading about them. And the Kiko's (to us) just sound like the 'perfect' goat - bred for extreme parasite resistance, ease of kidding, etc. So, we'll see.

We live in Ohio and definetly have coyotes around here.. so we just bought (as in my dad just went and picked him up yesterday an 8 wk old Maremma... And he's beatiful (and HUGE for just 8wks!!). Both the farms our goats came from had maremma's and they were all big, beatiful dogs.

Good luck!!

Sounds like you headed in the same direction I have been considering. I will wait with great interest to see how your saga goes. I have been greatly blessed by the experiences and knowledge others are sharing. Hopefully, when my opportunity comes, I won't make too many foolish mistakes.

I have been "Googling" information on sheep and goats in my spare time for a couple of months, finding a bit here and a bit there on various breeder and university websites. Now, I am simply overwhelmed with information, not only on sheep and goats, but on everything from woodheaters, to yogurt making. I may never have to "Google" again

I have located some sheep and goat breeders in the area... hopefully they will let me trade a little elbow grease or some hand on experience.

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I have located some sheep and goat breeders in the area... hopefully they will let me trade a little elbow grease or some hand on experience.[/QUOTE]

There you go for a good start! You can read & read till your eyes are crossed but till you get out there & rub some elbow grease with someone else it's like learning how to drive with the manual. Ya gots to get behind the wheel at some point.
For us it has been a good mentor, a good vet , some knowlege and common sense and plenty of mistakes.

__________________
Bob and Nancy Dickey
Laughing Stock Boer Goats
"Seriously Great Bloodlines"
and the meat goes on....
Near Seattle

And just to throw something else into the mix, have you considered one of the small breeds of cattle, such as Dexters? They're dual purpose, you could have meat and milk, your experience is more with cattle, and surplus animals would be readily salable. Even if you end up with wooded land, there's going to be some forage. You'd have a lot less to learn than with sheep or goats, fewer parasite worries, and it's easier to find a good cattle vet than one who knows goats.

Madfarmer

Also consider heritage hogs in the woods!

Sounds like you may be looking at Katahdins or a primitive, or goats based on the available food. Find a breeder of either that is using the same type of pasture/woods - and doesn't hand breed/stall kid, etc ;-)

Seeing a lot of GOOD advice!

Andrea

I know cattle. If they made cattle anywhere as small as sheep and goats it would be my pick. There are a couple of reasons why I have not chosen cattle. First of all I will probably be limited to 6 -8 acres of pasture. With rotation that doesn't give room for many cattle, especially when I hope to feed mostly forage and pasture, with as little hay and grain as necessary.

A steer is far more meat than I want to butcher at any one time. Also, if for some reason of bad luck you loose a steer, you have lost 50 to 100% of your heard (one can raise 1 steer per acre..with rotation that doesn't allow for more than a couple on a few acres)

If you run across some (affordable) cows that mature at about 200 lbs. and have twins, let me know

Yep, I am pretty much decide on a couple of breeds of sheep or goats that prove hardy. I won't have hogs. I have a personal dislike for them, and they have ruined more acres of southern Missouri soil that can be imagined.

The soils in southern Miossouri are (in most places) derived from limestone.
when dolomite breaks down into smaller and smaller pieces in the weathering process, it gets to the size of aquarium gravel then just disolves, there is very little silica etc. to ever get small enough to become silt or clay. Because of this most, of the soils are sandy/gravely soil, with a little bit of decent size soil particles interdispersed. Sod and forest vegetation tends to catch windblown particles, so there is a layer of decent soil on top, but it may only be an inch or two thick. One can put hogs on a pasture here and turn it into a drive-in theater location in just a couple of years.

Many of the early settlers in Missouri did exactly that, and soils that had built up to a good number of inches because of the sod were destroyed. In the primarily oak forests, the soil never seems to build up to more than inch or two. Of course there are bottomlands sometimes with alluvial soils, and some fields that never were overgrazed, but the predominately the soil is very gravely and drains extremely fast, causing drought conditions in the late summer if there is not fairly periodic rainfall.

Reading your thoughts here about Missouri soils and animal impact reminded me on just how much knowledge and wisdom has been lost in the name of making life easier, and being more conformtable.

One of the best statements I have seen in a long time is what the world needs is cleaner minds and dirtier fingernails.

Depends on what kind of hog you get. I've chosen a hog that doesn't root unless I put them in a small area and not feed them. They graze. They are lazy.

You can do the same thing (with the soil) with cows and horses - AND SHEEP - they'll kill the vegetation and plow up the soil faster than most grazing hogs.

Andrea

True... and hogs will eat anything... animal, vegtable, or mineral.

If you are looking for a hardy sheep breed, I would suggest looking into Icelandic sheep. They seem to be very self sufficient from what I have read and have a very mild mutton flavor, as well as a higher meat to bone ratio on their carcass. They also very easily naturally shed their wool if you did not want to mess with shearing. Another plus is they have a gene that causes them to have twins as the norm instead of the exception (twice the bang for your buck) and triplets/quads are not uncommon sometimes!

For more info check out http://www.isbona.com/ .

Thank you.

That is a breed I had not investigated.

I did look into North Country Chevoit (hope I spelled that right) They are reported to be very hardy, but they are small, apparently, and I have decided against wool sheep.

I do like mutton, unlike many people, so I figure that I am going to be fairly happy with the taste of any of the sheep or goat breeds.

Don't be. I researched that well before deciding to butcher goats and chickens for my livestock guardian dogs(I have Pyrs). Its a perfectly safe practice. One of the things that LGDs are supposed to do is clean up carcases of dead goats, dead kids, etc to keep them from drawing predators. Believe me, they know very well the difference between live goats/chickens and the chunks of meat/bone that you give them as part of the ration. I have done it for years with no problems. In fact, now I butcher the goats in the pasture, leaving the guts on the ground for the dogs. They will literally eat everything but the actual stomach contents and its very good for them. I freeze all the other organs(lungs, liver, heart, etc.) and the bones for later feedings. Sometimes when I have plenty of meat in the freezer, I only keep my favorite part for us and freeze all the rest in meal-sized packages for the dogs. Its very nice. No problems *at* all. I also do this with all the butcher beefs, and when the dairy loses a calf, we cut it open and let the dogs feast. They have also cleaned up the neighbors dead horses every now and then. They have *never* touched a live calf, cow, horse, foal, goat, kid, etc. And they won't. They are in the same pasture as my calving cows and kidding goats. They clean up the afterbirth as well.

Of course this is all applicable *if* you know your dog as trustworthy already. I certainly wouldn't bring in a dog I didn't know and start him out on the meat of animals he was guarding. I would want to get to know him first.

__________________
Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence

Hmmmm, I had sheep in the past and totally preferred goats. So I will only talk about goats as that is what I know the best. Also sounds as though your land would be more suited to goats.
I have Boer and dairy goats in pretty much the same area as you are speaking of. We do get humidity(but believe me, nothing like the humidity of Southern Ohio where I came from originally!), we get heat and we sometimes get real cold. We also have really beautiful country for goats.
I haven't had the worm problems that so many speak of in association with Boers. That is usually the result of improper housing, worming and breeding practices.
I worm most of my adults about 2 times a year. Sometimes in very wet years I worm 3 times. Everyone gets wormed before breeding and immediately after kidding. I check eyelids and eyeball their condition often.
For kidding, raising the best kids and hardiness, I *love* the Boer/Dairy crosses. Especially the LaBoers(Lamancha/Boers).
The weather is not a problem as long as they have a shed where they can get out of the rain, wind and snow. They need shade in the summer. Plenty of fresh water, good food, good mineral all year round and you're set.
Raising goats is not difficult unless you make it that way.

__________________
Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence