Fist sized bubble hanging out after birth?

bbbuddy · #21 12/15/08, 03:45 PM

Here's an update for the sake of those who read this in the future...after a day and a half acting normal, this doe started acting like she was in labor again. The bubble of fluid had disappeared shortly after my first post. She expelled a leg, I went in, and found the other rear leg, and pulled a VERY dead kid out.

I should have gone in at the first sign of the bubble of fluid, I might have had triplets.
She is now getting 2.5 cc LA200 daily to prevent metritis, but I would like to know how long to continue this...3 days,5 days...more?

Rockytopsis · #22 12/15/08, 04:24 PM

bbbbudy, I am so sorry we seemed to have given you the wrong info. I have seen so many times though that there is a bubble after twins and it is just fluid left from the previous kid.

Do not give LA200 daily. It is a very powerful drug. Penicillin is the one you give daily for 5 days. If she has had more than one shot, don't give her any more of the LA. Do not give the penicillin on top of the LA.

Spinner · #23 12/15/08, 04:51 PM

I haven't read all the posts so I might be repeating someone....

I had a doe that had a bubble and it was another kid. I let it go for a day and the following day I ended up pulling a dead kid.

If there's a bubble, there's a reason for it. I'd go in if I were you.

ETA: I just finished reading the thread, then looked at the dates of the posts. I didn't notice that this thread wasn't new today.

I'm sorry you lost a kid. I know how bad it feels to loose one. Now you have more experience and will be better prepared if this happens again in the future.

LaManchaPaul · #24 12/15/08, 04:59 PM

BBBuddy, We all have different experiences. The bubbles have been with each of my three goat deliveries and two of my sheep deliveries.

I've been following this thread with interest. I don't think that the bubble had any relationship to a stillborn as I've seen it several times and never had a stillborn.

Paul
edited to add, "I've never helped with a delivery or the bubble. It just expelled with the placenta."

cjean · #25 12/15/08, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaManchaPaul

BBBuddy, We all have different experiences. The bubbles have been with each of my three goat deliveries and two of my sheep deliveries.

I've been following this thread with interest. I don't think that the bubble had any relationship to a stillborn as I've seen it several times and never had a stillborn.

Paul
edited to add, "I've never helped with a delivery or the bubble. It just expelled with the placenta."

We have had sheep and goats for the last four years, and have also seen this bubble several times after the lambing or kidding. Never have we had a stillborn, except for one that was born immediately after the first twin. I tend to agree with you, that the bubble is not related to whether a baby is still in there or not. Maybe a vet or tech could give us more exact info....here, we are all just relying on our own experiences, so I hope there is much forgiveness!

Minelson · #26 12/15/08, 05:50 PM

So sorry for your loss

bbbuddy · #27 12/15/08, 09:05 PM

Oh - don't think I blame anyone but me, I could have checked further.

On the LA200, I followed the dose from fiasco farm:

"Goat dose: SQ Injection
4.5ml per 100 lbs. every 36-48 hours. Administer 3 shots (one every 36-48 hours.)
OR
3ml per 100 lbs. once daily (this is the dosage I use)"

I cut back on the dose some since this is a Nigerian Dwarf, but the number of days was not given. I have given her a dose now for 3 days running...

Qvrfullmidwife · #28 12/15/08, 10:00 PM

It is true that the bubble itself wasn't necessarily indicative of another kid...but had he gone in and done a quick check as a precaution then it would have been found. This is precisely why it should be done...it is for the peace of mind of the breeder, yes, but peace of mind to know that all is done and complete and well.

And no need to routinely give antibiotics anytime that you 'go in'...I don't after each time that I check a woman midwifery client!

bbbuddy · #29 12/15/08, 10:16 PM

The antibiotics are because the dead kid was decomposing...not because I went in

goatkid · #30 12/16/08, 01:15 AM

When my vet has had me use LA200 due to birth issues, he prescribes it every other day for three doses.

Rockytopsis · #31 12/16/08, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qvrfullmidwife

It is true that the bubble itself wasn't necessarily indicative of another kid...but had he gone in and done a quick check as a precaution then it would have been found. This is precisely why it should be done...it is for the peace of mind of the breeder, yes, but peace of mind to know that all is done and complete and well.

And no need to routinely give antibiotics anytime that you 'go in'...I don't after each time that I check a woman midwifery client!

Sorry I had to laugh at this comment, I would think that you did not check your clients in a barn. I also went and checked Fiasco's recomentations for LA200. They say give it for metritis true, but it does not say give it for the prevention of infection, only after the infection has set in. There again it is just my recomendation on La200 and it is how I use it.

goatkid · #32 12/16/08, 08:16 AM

I'm sorry you lost the kid. It can be hard to advise over the internet without actually seeing the goat. Anytime I'm questioning whether or not there is another kid, I check. We don't always give an antibiotic if we go in, but anytime there is something unusual such as a dead kid, a c section or a prolapse, we always give the oxytet. It seems especially important since the dead kid was in her that long. You don't want to wait til the doe gets an infection. If you do, she may never conceive again.

susanne · #33 12/16/08, 08:41 AM

very sorry for the loss. you might not have had any different outcome if you would have gone in. the reason that the kid did not come out might have ben because it was dead already and dam did not get enough hormone info to continue with the labor. so, don't feel bad about it.
i would give antibiotic in this case too.
congrats to your new kids

hoofinitnorth · #34 12/16/08, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qvrfullmidwife

It is true that the bubble itself wasn't necessarily indicative of another kid...but had he gone in and done a quick check as a precaution then it would have been found. This is precisely why it should be done...it is for the peace of mind of the breeder, yes, but peace of mind to know that all is done and complete and well.

Yes, which is why I advised doing a gentle sweep as soon as she thought the kiddings had subsided.

To the OP, I'm sorry you lost the kid but very happy you caught it and are treating the doe now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qvrfullmidwife

And no need to routinely give antibiotics anytime that you 'go in'...I don't after each time that I check a woman midwifery client!

Yes, I think antibiotics are far too often (over)used and we should beware that they are not usually designed to prevent infection, but to treat it. Of course, the higher the risk of infection, the more likely we are to want to use the antibiotics *just in case*. However, we need to take care not to use any medication as a crutch when it is really not needed. JMO.

bbbuddy · #35 12/16/08, 11:17 AM

Had this been a "freshly dead" kid I would not worry, but this kid was already decomposing, as in YUCK. That is the reason for the antibiotics.

The only question I still have is whether to discontinue the shots after 3 days...

dbarjacres · #36 12/16/08, 12:16 PM

I'm sorry I gave you bad advice. Well, it's been "true" advice in my experience, but I should have added, but was just to lazy to - sorry about that - that if she didn't clean within 6 hours I would have given her a shot of oxytocin, or if done a hand sweep first if she still hadn't cleaned.

Sorry about the kid and your experience.

I think the 3 days of LA200 would be enough.

PETSNEGGS · #37 12/16/08, 03:02 PM

I'm so sorry for your loss. I sure have learned even more from this thread.

Goat Servant · #38 12/16/08, 04:59 PM

BBBuddy Im sorry too. Thank you for sharing, we have all learned alot.

The first time I had to go in a Boer she had twins. She acted all done but my guts told me there was another one in there. No bubble hanging or anything unusual visually in that dept. A call to my breeder coaching me thru revealed nothing.
Vet out the next day, she couldnt feel anything either. Meantime doe was going downhill fast...by the 4th day vet out again...there was a mummified kid way up in the horn. Doe on death's door. We put her down.
What I guess Im saying is that at times we dont catch these things even with a vet call.
How is your doe doing today?

bbbuddy · #39 12/17/08, 10:36 AM

Thanks to all who tried to help!

The doe (Jem) is a good mother, one I got by accident when I bought a Nigerian Dwarf buckling to breed to my Nubians (trying for mini-Nubians).

She was thrown in free because she has a "butterfly" nipple.

She freshened last spring for the first time with a single, this breeding was an accident.

Her milk is wonderful, just as good as the Nubians, but the only way I can milk her is with a Maggidan's milker, which works GREAT.

Her doeling has normal nipples!

By the way, that Maggidan's milker works just great, but ONLY with the prefilter, don't even bother unless you get the prefilter. It clogs up constantly without the prefilter, not at all with it...

Qvrfullmidwife · #40 12/17/08, 11:10 PM

"I would think that you did not check your clients in a barn."

LOL true, but I DO check my clients in their homes, where they are accustomed to the standard organisms dwelling therein...just as the goats are checked in *their* homes, with *their* familiar organisms...

of course I did just do a birth recently where the mom was really inclined to deliver on her porch with her llama 5 feet behind me looking over my shoulder

Glad to hear that your doe is doing well now.