7 Month Doeling ?Pregnant? Help!

I've used lute on young does....2cc for $5 is WAY cheaper than vet visit or dead doe.

Be sure not to get any lute on you as a female human.....

I've also seen what breeding too late ()3yo on well bred (too fat) Nubians does to milk production. Its a balancing act to be sure!

[QUOTE=hoggie;3371059]Please can I add a question to this post?

I have two young girls that I think may have been accidentally bred at about 5 months.

Hi Hoggie- I breed BGS Guernsey goats ('Glastnbury' BGS herd name)here across the pond- perhaps since you are on the channel islands that is what you are keeping?

Anyway, There are some reasons for breeding in the first year. And usually seeing a kidded kid in UK is different I know, but what happens when they are held over as a goatling is that they hold fat in the udder areas and most likely do not milk to their full potential.

One of the Guernsey breeders here (Joan Stump, Stumphollo) has done this very successfully with her kidded kid golden girls, but I have noticed that there are two distinct body types to the the Guernseys- one is a more refined doe, going more to the smaller, hairy-er, fine boned, longer necked female and more feminine looking male. The other type goes more towards the larger animal that retains more of the breed the Guensey is being bred from.

I expect, if you are using Guernseys, you are choosing the purebred GG over the BG, and if so, you will have animals of the more refined variety. I would not worry too much as the females will have smaller kids, and as long as they are well fed on lucerne, good minerals and other available high quality dairy nuggets while they are pregnant, they should do fine. One thing we have noticed though is that the GG's and the graded up animals here need LOTS of extra copper in their diets.

If you are keeping the BA's, Toggs or Saanens of any sort, your doelings should also do fine with extra nutrition as well. These are all humongous breeds in UK.

The only thing I would worry about in the BGS versions of these breeds is the udder after they have kidded as yearlings, esp. if they are heavy milkers as kidded kids- the structure of the BGS versions of these breeds tend to have a lower rear and much stronger fore than the US versions of the same breeds. This will lead itself to more dropping of the rear udder attachment earlier in life, since the milk is held in the rear of the udder, not the fore. (I have noticed though that some breeders are using Dutch Saanens that have had the fortune to have imported US Saanen genetics used on them- imported Greitje is the one I have noticed (I think that is Nick Parr?) - the over all area of attachment to the udder and higher rear can do nothing but improve what is already a fine animal.

If you 'd like to get in touch with me, please do- I can direct you to a few goat groups on yahoogroups for the Guernseys and goats in UK.

The two young does that may have been caught are 1/2 British Toggenburg and 1/2 Golden Guernsey. But they are little like the Guernseys although with short coats. I don't know if all that is relevant at all but better to give all the info.

Thanks again

hoggie[/QUOTE]


So these are SR level doelings? I have an SR level 1/2 togg:1/2 Guernsey doeling (born in March) that I will be breeding to a GG male in late Nov. She is already well grown out for such and I expect no problems.

What you want to help with copper is some copper sulfate and it can be mixed in the feed or given daily on their tongues- take your finger and wet it, dip in the bag of copper sulfate so the end of your finger is blue, then pop it on their tongue. Your vet may also have access to some injectable chelated minerals that contain copper, but these should be given to an animal before it is bred or used for breeding as they also contain selenium, zinc and manganese.

What for coccidia in these yonger ones though- some veccoxan (sp?) should help.

Betsy have you read the saanendoah.com info on the use of copper sulfate? In fact if all the copper sulfate already found in grains and mineral mixes don't work, why would more in the water or applied daily to the tongue work better? There are warnings about how hard it is on the rumen also given at amounts like this. Joyce's information on her site comes from thousands of goats. Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

Oh yes, I've read it. But you see, not all feed mixes that say they contain it, do. At least at levels that do what they are supposed to. Different parts of the country do different things. What works for me in TN may not work for you in TX. Not to mention the sulfur in the water binding what is there making it totally unavailable for use by the animal.

As you know, in UK, they do not have much in the way they can do themsleves, unless it is under the table. I've not heard them talk about bolusing on G-UK ever being available to them. It may be there, but the usual is the Cu sulfate.

Cu sulfate works in PA for Joan, not just for its' antibiotic properties, but for what its' intended purpose is. Bolusing may also not work in NY where the big herd of purebreds are. Injected Cu, Se, Zinc and Manganese works for me, and so does Cu sulfate. Sea kelp also helps. A lot.

GG's are especially noticable becasue their hair coats are so different, like Toggs may also be. It is very obvious when the goat has adequate Cu as their coppery red coats glow with the right combinations of proper nutrition, not to mention the severe softening of the rear pasterns and spread toes when they do not have it from birth. And it is a game I'd rather not play up here in these mountains with everything washed out and having to supply it.

betsy how do you know a goat has had enough copper? or how much does a 220 pound versus a 100 pound goat need?

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Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

Hi folks - back again - sorry, I had a bad few days.

Vicki - I haven't yet asked at the vet's but I have searched all my usual sources for stuff and can't find the lutelyse anywhere. I WILL ask the vet but I have a feeling it's not going to happen.

Betsy - yes my Guernseys are the little ones. And the two does are little like the Guernseys, but their triplet brother is HUGE. Their mum is BT and I am a bit worried that their kids might bring forward the BT size.

I have to confess that so far my knowledge of udders is next to non-existent - I just don't have enough to look at and compare LOL

It is interesting to see that you find the copper problems in the GGs over there. My BT and BA don't have any obvious signs of deficiencies, but my billy did hav when I had him, and my GG nanny does. I have a good copper supplement made for horses which I give them (I still need to find out where I stand with milking them while they are getting that) but the kids won't touch it. I have considered balling some up and pushing it down them.

Our biggest problem over here is that you not allowed to sell/buy a product for an animal for which it is not licensed. Because goats are still very "small" here, nobody bothers to licence their products for goats - so you can't buy things. You can buy boluses for cattle but not goats. Vecoxan I bought by fibbing about what animals I was treating - don't know if I will ever be able to get it again. Trodax hich I tried to buy as a preventative against lungworm (the breeder of my GG nanny had one diagnosed with it) I couldn't buy as I made the mistake of saying it was for goats - they refused to sell it to me.

So medication IS a problem.

Thanks again

hoggie

What is the youngest a doeling can get pregnant? Is it possible at 1 month/5 weeks?

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~Jill~

Riverbend Farm

WWW.Freewebs.com/jyllie63

I always have Goatmilk soap for sale

I was told a buckling can breed at 2 months a doeling can conceive at 3months

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Zone 6

Maybe she's just fat . I noticed some weight gain before I went on vacation and now that I'm back she looks even bigger. I even think I felt a kid in there. She's only 5 months old...but at least she's big for her age. She was a whopper when she was born. My buck escaped when she was 5 weeks old which would put her due the end of November. He also likes to walk along their fenceline and I guess he could have gotten to her that way so it's possible she could be due later. She's not bagging up so I'm still hopeful she's just fat LOL.

__________________
~Jill~

Riverbend Farm

WWW.Freewebs.com/jyllie63

I always have Goatmilk soap for sale

Copper deficiency is east to tell in color breeds, Toggs, GG's, etc.- by the way the color fades. In Saanens, for examplr, you see 'fish tails', or a split area in the tail hair that looks like a fish's tail does. Also bald noses, ears and really rough coats. Sometimes, when they do not shed out all the way, or really late in the seaon, this is an easy way to tell if copper is needed.

Other ways are single births or not breeding at all.

Usually two weeks after a Multi-Min shot, I see shinier, sleaker coats, ears and noses getting hair again and tail hairs coming back in.