Experience with Molly's herbal wormer

BlueHeronFarm · #**101** 08/12/08, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo@ LaudoDeumFa

Once again: It's not the chemical that doesn't work. It's the worms who have mutated enough so that they can survive the chemical. It's the worms- not the chemicals. The chemicals will work in a different area, if there are no resistant worms present.

File this away. This is important.

We are still able to use Ivomec Eprinex for a few reasons - one being that the people we buy goats from never wormed willy nilly. Another being that we don't, either.

When Stan goes all nuts about people who use chemical wormers, I am not sure he considers that many experienced owners and breeders ONLY worm based on EPG and FAMACHA checks (combined, not separate)and NEVER do herd-wide wormings.

I have friends down here - in the hot humid south - who only ever have to worm two times a year. This is because they have only a few goats on a lot of land. Herbal wormers would be a waste of money for these people - their worm burdens are controlled already. ...this all goes back to the beginning of this scary thread.

stanb999 · #**102** 08/12/08, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueHeronFarm

File this away. This is important.

We are still able to use Ivomec Eprinex for a few reasons - one being that the people we buy goats from never wormed willy nilly. Another being that we don't, either.

When Stan goes all nuts about people who use chemical wormers, I am not sure he considers that many experienced owners and breeders ONLY worm based on EPG and FAMACHA checks (combined, not separate)and NEVER do herd-wide wormings.

I have friends down here - in the hot humid south - who only ever have to worm two times a year. This is because they have only a few goats on a lot of land. Herbal wormers would be a waste of money for these people - their worm burdens are controlled already. ...this all goes back to the beginning of this scary thread.

I'm not going "postal" over folks using commercial wormers. I use them myself. I go "postal" over the fact that it is the standard of care suggested for almost all ailments a goat or goat owner may have or believe they have.

For instance....
Wet stool.....
It could mean worms.
or
1) Change in food
2) a change in environment
3) poor water quality
4) a failed conception
5) a actual physical condition (like a bad hit or poke to the abdomen.)
6) a hardware issue.

Of these issues only in the top 2 would worming not cause increased stress on the animal. Even in these cases it could but would be unlikely to add to the problem.

Yet the main "cure" postulated is to worm. This may and I do mean may cause more harm than good.

susanne · #**103** 08/12/08, 08:43 AM

stan, copper deficiency is another reason for wet stool or diarrhea. this even comes with pale eyelids

BlueHeronFarm · #**104** 08/12/08, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stanb999

I'm not going "postal" over folks using commercial wormers. I use them myself. I go "postal" over the fact that it is the standard of care suggested for almost all ailments a goat or goat owner may have or believe they have.

For instance....
Wet stool.....
It could mean worms.
or
1) Change in food
2) a change in environment
3) poor water quality
4) a failed conception
5) a actual physical condition (like a bad hit or poke to the abdomen.)
6) a hardware issue.

Of these issues only in the top 2 would worming not cause increased stress on the animal. Even in these cases it could but would be unlikely to add to the problem.

Yet the main "cure" postulated is to worm. This may and I do mean may cause more harm than good.

You hit one of my pet peeves here. I hate when people post about clumpy poo and the reaction is worms!

HC does not cause loose stool. There are typically NO symptoms other than maybe anemia...at which point you've got to worm quickly.

This is why fecal epg counts are SO important. Often times the first sign of a parasite (HC) overload is a dead goat.

thatcompchick · #**105** 08/12/08, 10:33 AM

Hear hear! Blue Heron.

Andrea

southerngurl · #**106** 08/12/08, 11:12 AM

Yes, fecals are great, because guessing's no fun.

susanne · #**107** 08/12/08, 12:01 PM

isn't that what i always say?

no antemintics (herbal or man made), money or time can replace a fecal check. this is the A and O in parasite prevention. i only can recommend to every body with live stock, to have this on priority list to learn. it is easy, and it is cheap.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #**108** 08/12/08, 01:04 PM

But new people do not have a vet they can take a fecal to because they don't do goats.....

They have purchased from breeders who then don't help them and so they end up here....

But new people do not know how to fecal.

Most of the people on this forum do not fecal, hence nobody answering the gals questions yesterday on doing a fecal.

Susanne answered a PIPERIZINE question with ask your vet. PIPERIZINE!!!!

They want you to save their goat. The first sign of worms in a poorly ran farm is going to be diarrhea (hence the mud butt analogy here), then bottle jaw anemia with HC. Winters and springs it's the "I have a skinny milker I can't get any weight on or kids are born skinny and small and die and my doe has no milk".

In all cases Stan wrote it could be cause from bad poor basic management, OK not the last few

And I think the stress factor is really overlooked. I don't have alot of illness or accidents here, but does who are on meds are profilactially put on oral sulfas for cocci and are fecaled every couple of days for worms.

Parasites and nutrition, it's what you have to teach first.

If you bombard them with too many things they will do none.

Note not a heck of alot of folks who purchase from me are on here asking these questions, so make sure you give good basic information to your customers so they don't become one of these that we guess what is wrong folks. All we can do on here is guess and those guesses save goats. Vicki

susanne · #**109** 08/12/08, 01:22 PM

here we go again vicki. i did not just answer " ask the vet"
http://homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=265009

i have not used this wormer and therefore no experience with it

at least i don't play vet on the internet like you do.

why do you have to get personal with all your posts? you would look so much smarter if you wouldn't do that.

there is absolutely no reason what so ever, not to tell new goat owners what a fecal is all about, how to learn and where to find the right info.
as a responsible old time goat owner, it should be in your interest, to prevent the only effective wormer in the humid south to become useless.

oh, and too much "but" in your posts. does it mean it is not really credible what you are saying? or do i missunderstand the humor in it?

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #**110** 08/12/08, 01:46 PM

there is absolutely no reason what so ever, not to tell new goat owners what a fecal is all about, how to learn and where to find the right info.
.....................

From getting you first goats...when did you first fecal? So I should have told you to just fecal those goats you bought, no cocci info, no worming information...just ask your vet and learn to fecal.

Nope you are humorless. Vicki

susanne · #**111** 08/12/08, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

there is absolutely no reason what so ever, not to tell new goat owners what a fecal is all about, how to learn and where to find the right info.
.....................

From getting you first goats...when did you first fecal? So I should have told you to just fecal those goats you bought, no cocci info, no worming information...just ask your vet and learn to fecal.

Nope you are humorless. Vicki

never too late to start doing the right thing vicki.

only because somebody just started out with goats, doesn't mean they are stupid. they only need the right direction. for those that need more help, they will come and ask.
as soon as they get bashed and hit because they might have a different idea, that is when they stay away or watching duels and are too intimidated to ask.
this is where some old timers need to get smarter and not act like queens or dictators.
when it comes to you, yes i'm very humorless.
i still value some of your views. this is maybe only a matter of time until the last rest of respect is gone.

why didn't you answer the piperazine question from sixshooterfarm?
maybe because you didn't know either?

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #**112** 08/12/08, 02:44 PM

only because somebody just started out with goats, doesn't mean they are stupid. they only need the right direction.
...................

You just won me $10!!!! Gabe.

You will never find a post where I have called a new person stupid.

My post is true, no matter how you slice it, they want real information and the right direction is to give them the correct wormers to use and the correct dosages, and then give them the information on learning to fecal, teach them and still most won't.

And the whole Vicki is so mean and thinks she knows it all is getting really really old.

Sorry I am not going to give you the info on Piperizine also so you can then pretend you didn't learn it from me

LOL!!! rolly eyes sarcastic, shaking of the finger emoticons right back at you with a different finger though...humor humor humor.

..............................

OK all that aside as a new person yourself Susanne, you could answer this question and really put all this to rest.

When you purchased your first goats, even though you knew all, I was going to put most but all my peers fecal, so although you knew all of the old timers you read on the forum, I was on, fecaled. How long before you stopped just using the information on worming and cocci prevention I gave you, and simply fecaled? Day, weeks, months, a year? Vicki

hoofinitnorth · #**113** 08/12/08, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

But new people do not have a vet they can take a fecal to because they don't do goats.....

They have purchased from breeders who then don't help them and so they end up here....

Many of us just like these forums and like to learn and return the favor. The breeders where I purchased my goats are EXTREMELY helpful, even amidst their own very busy schedules. They go out of their way to help me and others and I so appreciate them. But sometimes I want more information, another opinion, or whatever, so I come here. It's not because I don't believe them or don't trust them or because they aren't helping me, it's just to sort of touch bases with others who may be learning or teaching the same things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Note not a heck of alot of folks who purchase from me are on here asking these questions, so make sure you give good basic information to your customers so they don't become one of these that we guess what is wrong folks.

An absence of your buyers here doesn't say anything about the information you provide or don't provide, but I agree, you do have to help out the newbies as much as you can, as their successes can invariably reflect upon you as a breeder (not just as a mentor).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

If you bombard them with too many things they will do none.

It depends on the personality of the newbie, but yes, this can and does happen and is something we all have to consider.

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

never too late to start doing the right thing vicki.

only because somebody just started out with goats, doesn't mean they are stupid. they only need the right direction. for those that need more help, they will come and ask.
as soon as they get bashed and hit because they might have a different idea, that is when they stay away or watching duels and are too intimidated to ask.
this is where some old timers need to get smarter and not act like queens or dictators.

Yep. I have a pretty thick skin courtesy of my many years posting on forums like these (many are unmoderated forums where things can get pretty heated, just go look at rec.equestrian for an eye-opener! LOL). Still, it's unpleasant when the information is clouded with bad attitude, especially when the attitude isn't warranted. For example, one could at least understand getting exasperated with someone that refuses to learn/listen and posts the same questions over and over and continues to have problems or being upset with someone for abusing or neglecting their animals. However, it's quite another situation to act supreme because someone decides to ask a question or present a differing point of view for discussion.

It's always nice to know that you're welcomed as a newbie too. I joined DairyGoatInfo not knowing it was "Vicki's" forum. I posted a couple of times, not to Vicki, not about Vicki, not mean, not looking for trouble, just exploring a new site upon which to interact with other goat fanciers. Within HOURS, Vicki had me banned from the forum without reason. Obviously she felt my mere presence threatened her there. After I had a chance to speak about the situation with another moderator and Vicki, I have not bothered to go back there. Now that I know it is "Vicki's" forum, I'm not interested in it in the least. My loss? Maybe. But being banned just for showing up says all I need to know about the place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

You will never find a post where I have called a new person stupid.

I'm not going to bother to go back through to see if you've ever actually used that word but you sure do have a way of minimizing a newbie's experiences. You just recently told me I had "had goats for five minutes" amidst a good discussion about looking beyond the same-old, same-old, thereby trivializing my experiences with goats and my comments. Do you know that I have probably read and absorbed more information about goats in the year before I bought a goat and the last 10 months of actually owning goats than most of the people I've met ever actually have discussed in 20 years of goat ownership? Does that make anyone better or smarter than the other? Nope. But it says a lot about my ambition to learn and perhaps their luck not having to learn about bad encounters.

Getting back to the OP, as far as de-wormers go, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE use the fecal system if you can in any way learn it or hire it done and PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE use the correct dosages in the correct intervals. If you don't use the right dosages & intervals, you may be immunizing the surviving parasites (not just worms) to the chemicals, thereby building their resistance.

I wonder what about the Molly's herbal mixes makes the owners report the coats look so good? Seems a lot of folks here use the mix just for this use so which herb (or combination of herbs) therein could be fed regularly, strictly to improve outward appearance without building resistance or harming the goat?

I'm not Susanne, but I will tell you that I had a fecal done on my goats WITHIN THE FIRST WEEK OR SO AFTER THEY ARRIVED. I even posted about it here.

susanne · #**114** 08/12/08, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Sorry I am not going to give you the info on Piperizine also so you can then pretend you didn't learn it from me

LOL!!! rolly eyes sarcastic, shaking of the finger emoticons right back at you with a different finger though...humor humor humor.

i hope at least you did send a pm to her and let her know that if administered with wrong drugs, it can be deadly.
maybe you should give all your advice only in pm's LOL
oh wait a moment. you would loose your status here because nobody would read what you have to say and see how intelligent you are

.

maybe i read it wrong again?

susanne · #**115** 08/12/08, 03:37 PM

vicki, let us end the cat fights on public boards. it doesn't help others. i respect your opinion, please do respect mine.
stay with the subject and don't pull out old trash every time you see an opportunity.
your advise might be well meant and from some viewers analyzed as passionate, but comes across wrong too many times.

steff bugielski · #**116** 08/13/08, 05:41 AM

As for the Molly's and the coat, the same thing happened to my dog when feeding him almost raw. I think it is the result of overall good health. I find the same thing with my finger nails and hair when I take vitamins.

The herbal de-wormers have decreased my goats worm load. Fact, that is all I need to know. I have had the fecals done but even without them I would be happy. As long as the animal is looking great, bright eyed, eyelids dark pink, she is milking great and has excellent body condition I do not care if she has a few extra worms. Molly's has done all that for my goats.

minnikin1 · #**117** 08/13/08, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steff bugielski

The herbal de-wormers have decreased my goats worm load. Fact, that is all I need to know. I have had the fecals done but even without them I would be happy. As long as the animal is looking great, bright eyed, eyelids dark pink, she is milking great and has excellent body condition I do not care if she has a few extra worms. Molly's has done all that for my goats.

It's nice to hear that because I was considering giving the product a try, but only the part without the wormwood.

Does anybody maintain a free choice herbal pasture? We have a wormwood patch that grows naturally. I have been meaning to get out there and plant some more of the high tannin plants out there.

southerngurl · #**118** 08/13/08, 09:06 AM

I plan to plant lezpedeza in the goat yard, because I started feeding it to my goats and HC counts went down. It is also supposed to be a very good feed for milkers, lots of protein and calcium like alfalfa (but not quite a high as alfalfa).

A couple of other things a person should have in their fields is mustard and garlic, that way you don't have to season your goats before you eat them

.

No really, they are good for worms and the garlic is just great for so many things, bacteria, virus, and fungal. It's a good general health increaser. And I personally have not had it make my goats milk to taste funny to feed them garlic greens, maybe they just didn't get enough? I fed it to them by the handfuls.

Mrs. Jo · #**119** 08/13/08, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by minnikin1

It's nice to hear that because I was considering giving the product a try, but only the part without the wormwood.

I know two people who have lost goats due to wild wormwood in the pasture that the goats wee eating. I myself would not allow them to browse on it free choice. Plant it in a tub, so you can control how much they eat.

Lots of other herbs can be planted in the pasture that help with over all health and condition. Peacful Valley farm supply has mixes that you can use.

minnikin1 · #**120** 08/13/08, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jo@ LaudoDeumFa

I know two people who have lost goats due to wild wormwood in the pasture that the goats wee eating. I myself would not allow them to browse on it free choice. Plant it in a tub, so you can control how much they eat.

Lots of other herbs can be planted in the pasture that help with over all health and condition. Peacful Valley farm supply has mixes that you can use.

How did they know it was because of the wormwood?
Here the only problem they list with it is perhaps decreased milk or funny tasting milk:

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/...cts/87-016.htm