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Grain Free Milker update
Let's see here... we started transitioning our star doe (who has been milking for 4 years straight without breeding her back) off grain supplements on June 18th for the health and welfare of our family.
We've banned oats, wheat, rye, barley, and corn from our household due to allergies- and thus all our animals are now free of these grains as well. Streak free ranges and her milking ration of grain was at first half replaced by alfalfa pellets and then totally replaced by alfalfa pellets. Its been three weeks since she had any grain at all. I anticipated that her milk production would decrease, but it hasn't. It's increased and she looks gorgeous. In fact we've traveled with her quite a bit this month, camping and fishing, and she's even showed far less stress than usual when traveling. I'm impressed and excited! Of course, winter is coming and she'll have to be supplemented with our new menu then... so things might change. But for now things are going just peachy! |
I'm glad things are going well so far, and I look forward to your updates. How do you plan to get enough fat and carbs in her diet this winter? I'm curious to see how she does long-term as well.
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I find this very interesting. Thank you for providing periodic updates.
Another gal in North Carolina has taken her goats off of grain for health reasons as well, but they are having a few struggles. Definitely milk dropped. Of course, hers kidded this Spring... How much milk is your doe currently giving? Camille P.S. You may be able to add fat with flax seed or BOSS |
I have millet, BOSS, flax, kelp, salmon meal, alfalfa pellets, beet pulp, and possibly rice on this winters goat menu thus far- in addition to free choice alfalfa cubes.
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Adult herbivores are designed by nature to not have the ability to properly digest animal protein. A kids rumen is different than an adults for milk. Once they are grown the rumen changes for browse...no more milk. Other than the fish, it sure looks like a healthy alternative there. :) |
I haven't read your other updates, but this is very encouraging, not only from the standpoint of the goats not getting most grains, but you have milked her through for 4 years straight! I am so very interested in hearing more about this because I am interested in milking through. How many lactations did she have before you started doing this? What kind of goat is she and how much does she give. If you'd rather not clutter up this thread with that information, please PM me! Or direct me to a thread that you have already posted this information.
Thanks Linda |
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Ah... I did a search and found your other posts!
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To be honest, I hadn't considered that goats are supposedly herbivores- since my goats regularly steal raw salmon carcasses from my dogteam and devour them.
In fact all of our many animals love fish... and so do we. I just finished canning 45 pints for salmon salad sandwiches and have another couple hundred pounds to process as frozen fillets. Our menagerie gets all the trimmings- heads, fins, guts, backbones and skins. This is Streak's first lactation- she's half Alpine/half Toggenburg. I'd have to look back in my records, but I think her highest 12 hour production was 80 ounces. She averages about 38 now, up from 32 when she was on grain. |
Ah a little over a quart a day... but still that is encouraging. I think the alfalfa pellets would be better than the grain anyway. But I am curious why you plan to change it in the winter?
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No, no, I don't think I'd keep milking her for a quart a day. Its 38 ounces every 12 hours- so 2.5 quarts a day, plenty for my family and a little to sell.
The reason I would increase her plane of nutrition in the winter is because I live in Alaska and it gets ---- cold and difficult to forage successfully. All of us need more fat in the winter and carbs help too. |
OH! Well that does explain it! Oh and I grew up in Alaska so I know what you mean...
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How is your goat's condition with the change in grain?
With feeding the alfalfa pellets, beet pulp, and alfalfa cubes, you probably are not getting as far away from the grains as you want. They put all sorts of floor sweepings and binders in those things, even if the label doesn't say so. Look closely, bet you will see corn. If they come from Alaska Mil & Feed or Manna Pro, I can guarantee it. Why is her production so markedly reduced from 80 oz x 2 to 38 oz x 2 (before the change in grain)? Is that normal for her? Three out of four of my NDs up here all give me over two quarts a day when their kids are off. I'm completely ignorant of this breed combination, though I would have expected a large goat to do much more? A side note, with feeding fish or any raw meat, you open up a whole world of different parasites, says my vet. Same goes for if you are letting your goats eat where your dogs eat/defecate. By the way, selling milk in Alaska is currently illegal unless you 1) pasteurize and become a Grade A dairy or 2) add a dye and charcoal and mark for pet consumption only. I've worked hard on getting this law changed for the past 11 years. Please help us change the law, and in the mean time, please don't break it! :) You can PM me for more info. |
Hi Heather-
I have to say that my doe looks absolutely fantastic without grain. And yeah, the pellets/cubes come through Alaska Mill and Feed. The beet pulp has molasses, and will only be added as a very small amount for vitamins. I'll be interested in talking to Alaska Mill and Feed about their process and inclusions. Thanks for the heads up on that. Streaks peak production was 80 ounces, some 3 years and 9 months ago when she was still fresh. She tends to decline in the winter to about 28 ounces per milking and increase in the summer to about 34 ounces per milking. Now since she's off grain and with only pellets/mineral salt as supplements to free ranging her milk production has INCREASED from her normal non-fresh summer status quo to 38 ounces average. We don't feed fresh meat scraps to our animals. All meat is deep frozen for weeks before being fed. This takes care of the parasite problem. And the dog team is now corralled while the goats have free run, so there hasn't been any dogpoop accessible to the goats for a couple of years now. While it is not up to the state of Alaska to tell me how to live or what I can do with my milk and eggs, I respect that you are trying to change the law. Lets just say that I "share" my milk and they pay me to deliver it then. Do you milk your goats year round and "through"? Lisa |
Lisa thanks so much for the update. I saved your previous post because I found it so interesting that you had milked her through that long and I appreciate you sharing what you've learned with us. I'm new to goats but have researched for a couple of years before getting them. We kept the same feed formula for our goats that the previous owner used which is alfalfa pellets, beet pulp, BOSS and sweet feed and it must work because despite the move and our inexperience all four goats did great. I have tinkered with it til it's four parts alfalfa, two parts BOSS, one part beet pulp and one part sweet feed. Their production has actually increased a little even in this hundred plus heat we've had.
I'm strongly considering milking one of my milkers through or at least giving it a try and breeding the other this fall just to see how we do. Please keep us updated on your progress. |
Wildwood... may I ask how much of this ration your goats get at each 'meal'? I've had goats before, but not for some time. I now how a couple Nigerian Dwarf kids - a doe and a wether. And I realize that how much you feed yours being full sized goats and in milk will be much different than what I would feed mine. But I would like it for a comparison.
Thanks... |
Oh and I have another question... what can I use to replace sweet feed? Could I use plain oats or barley?
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Thank you for posting the quantity of milk you are getting from your doe. Makes a big difference in evaluating whether this is something that will work for others.
1/2 gallon a day makes you happy, and I am glad for that. But my Saanens milk 1 1/2 gallons/day and they could not sustain themselves on this feed unless they dropped their milk production dramatically. I say this, not in criticism of what you are doing (better for your health and it is working for you), but to help others realize that this may not work for them, especially until there is some evidence on how this affects the does' health long-term, and keeping in mind that this only sustains a lower milk production. (Others may do better feeding conventionally while milking through - higher milk production would provide more milk to "share", make soap with, feed hogs and bottle calves, etc. and thus make your goat a more productive member of the family). I have a good friend that milked her 3 year old Saanen through on accident (she was bred, but apparently didn't take) so she just started milking her again. this doe milked for 3 years straight, fed some alfalfa and a little grain. She continued to give just over 1 gallon /day. My sister has one of my does in CA. She had "loaned" her to another gal as they were moving and she failed to get bred. When she got her home that spring, (dried up, not bred), when the other goats came into milk, so did she, and gave 10 lbs/milk a day for 2 years. So milking through is very do-able. Dairies do this all of the time, as they are more interested in milk than they are in replacement does and the work/milk entailed in raising kids. Genetics and breed play a big part in the does ability and willingness to milk through. SMWON: Oats and Barley are an excellent thing to feed your milking doe. Actually better than sweet feed, although they may object to the change at first. Kind of like a kid used to eating chocolate chip cookies for lunch switching to whole wheat bread.... you will meet with some resistance at first! Camille |
Camille- I'm just sharing my story here, as we all are... but in the interest of discussion- why do you think that going grain free will only work for what you term low milk production?
And BTW, my doe is probably the MOST productive member of my family, as not only does she provide milk year round year after year after year after year, but she also routinely backpacks whatever I load her up with. Interestingly enough, I raised this doe's mother too, and she was a short season milker... basically drying herself out by 6 months post partum... so its not jusst genetics playing in here. |
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I also have a little Nigie that is nursing a buckling and I give her two cups twice a day plus browse and hay. DH and I were just talking about how good she is looking so it must agree with her. Her little buckling is starting to nibble on her share too so they are more or less sharing it now. My grown nigie buck gets two cups of alfalfa a day with just a small handful of the girls mixture included. LOL he thinks since he has a grain or two of everything mixed, he's getting the same thing. I know he could make it on browse and hay but I can't stand to feed the girls and leave him out...he's the most loving of all my goats. My little nigie doe got the same as him when she was pregnant. Also I have considered replacing the sweet feed but they get such a small amount, really just for taste that I haven't gotten too serious about it but I would like to eventually since they've really taken to the alfalfa. They didn't eat it as well when I first increased it but now they love it. I am a newbie so others may have better advice...this is just what is working very well for me. My goats are looking great even though they've been moved and living in this horrible heat wave. There is always room for improvement. I do feel the increased alfalfa is why we've had the slight increase in milk. |
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Thanks for the info Wildwood... It is good to know how much you feed your Nigerian’s. It helps a lot in my planning. Sorry mt.mamma... didn't mean to hijack your thread! |
Lisa,
I realize that this is a discussion and some of it is just plain sharing. So I think we are on the same page - and there are many ways of reaching one's goals, and everyone's are different. The reason that I feel that no-grain won't work for high-production goats is that the grain is a source of energy that the doe needs to keep up this amount of work, without detriment to her health, both long and short term. Experience has shown me that when my high producing girls go off their grain (Titania in particular requires a little sweet feed or will stop eating the grain) that their milk drops and their condition suffers. We don't try to push grain (challenge feed) in order to get increased production, however. If I want a little bump up in milk we give the does alfalfa pellets, which they consider a treat and thus eat a bit more. If I increase their grain, they will also bump up their production, but I figure that 1 1/2 gallons is plenty, especially as they will keep that up for almost the whole 10 months lactation and then drop to 1 gallon a day when we struggle to dry them up. 2 years ago Titania milked for 335 days (4200 lbs which is well over 500 gallons) and we had to fight to get her to dry up. She could have easily milked through! We didn't milk her through as her kids are in high demand - bucks for what they can bring to the milk ability in the herd, and the doe because she can milk like her dam. Titania is also a beautiful doe who appraised 92EEEE this year. That means she has the form to support her function. Anyway, we have learned that different management styles work better for some than for others. Because our goats are such heavy milkers, we tend to look toward other high production breeders that we admire for tips and ideas for managing our does the very best we can. Using my management for your does wouldn't make sense in that you want to avoid grain. My management on your does' dam would also not make sense (pretend you were doing grain) as she would probably get fat on our rations when she wasn't milking it off of her. Oh, I think you are leaving Streak's sire out of the picture when you say that genetics have nothing to do with it. Management plays a part as well... Is Streak's sire the Nubian or the Alpine? Just curious.... Like how well did the sire's dam milk? Anyway, your doe is providing for you exactly what you want - so that's a good girl! For me, I figure that the goats all need to be fed (at least maintenance feed), wormed, vaccinated, housed etc. I just like to get a lot more production for my efforts, and my does just love to milk, so it is a happy partnership for me. |
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Camille |
I wouldn't think dropping the grain from that animal would have too much effect on her milk production or probably her condition. With that little of milk and as long as she has been milking it's almost standard for her instead of something she only has to do for 10 months every year.
Get her bred, and freshened and see how she does. |
Camille- I think you're right on, in that different herds require different management types. My goal in raising goats is to breed thick coats, sweetness and calmness and good year round milk. They have to be able to backpack and cross glacial rivers without getting weak or cold. So I'm not raising star milkers- just extra hardy stock who also provide all the milk my family needs.
Streak doesn't have any Nubian in her, her sire was a Tog that I raised after grafting him onto Streak's Alpine mother when her own kid died. I have no milk records on his line... he and his brother were a $35 dollar (registered) answer to Gigi's missing kid problem. I'm strongly considering breeding Streak this winter in hopes of getting a doeling to continue her line... I'm thinking of a longhaired Ober with good milklines... |
Ober's aren't well known for their milk productivity or ease in kidding. This is from Ober breeders who love their beauty. Shop carefully when using an Ober....
Camille |
Lisa, you have to be really careful with "sharing" the milk. The current law states that the milk cannot even leave the farm in its raw state! How ridiculous is that?!
My understanding is that Alaska Mill is now paying someone outside to mill all their feeds packaged under their name. :( I don't like finding big pieces of corn in my pellets when it's not even listed as an ingredient on the bag. Grrrr... No, I don't milk my goats through. This experiment is very interesting to me. Thank you for sharing it. I would like to decrease my does' dependency on grains but have not considered eliminating them completely. |
I would really hope that you would add some grain to her diet during the last 50 days of pregnancy and the first several weeks of her new lactation if you do choose to breed her.
She and you should be commended for milking through like this. Also reaslize this is a small amount of milk for a large breed doe, so grain is a moot point with excellent roughage and calcium. She needs only as much energy as she gleans for her backpacking, not milking. Once you add your winters and a pregnancy, I think she will suffer without the extra calories, carbs and energy from grain. Fish meal is not assimilated in a ruminant as protein. Fish and feather meal are popular protein substitutes here in Texas also, I feed my goats neither. Heather, I really do hope you are around in 10 years so we can show you this post :) Milk regs won't be changed anytime soon, you will eventually join the rest of us in your illegal things you do with your goats :) or your farm as a whole...Or you will loose the big chunk of income it gives you. Vicki |
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As newbie goat mom, I'm still learning so much. It sounds like most of you prefer alfafa pellets over alfalfa hay - why is that? How do you feed alfalfa cubes? Aren't they too large/hard? Mtn mama, why are millet and flax ok, but not other grains? |
There is less waste with pellets vs hay . Also in lots of the country good hay is hard to come by so its cheaper to feed a pellt.
Mt Mama ...seems like you have a nice hardy girl that fits your needs. Other goat owners beware this will not work for most goats . I guess mine are pampered a bit to much . With a large pasture past there knees . alfalfa pellets and grain I still have trouble keeping weight on some of my girls. But I will also not waste my time or extra feed on a doe milking less than 3/4 of a gallon a day . Patty |
Mt Mama-
I am finding this info incredibly interesting. Sort of reinforces for me the fact that in many parts of the world, bags of feed are unavailable, and goats MUST subside on what they find. And yet, these goats still breed, kid, and supply milk for their families. I think sometimes we forget that the lives of our animals weren't always dependent on someone else to grow feed and harvest hay, not to mention the other stuff we give them. I love my goats- I'm too new to cut out grain, mix feed, and feel like I'm doing a good job with it. I think it's wonderful that you are, and that you have done so. Bravo to you! Keep up the updates (and this is just mho, but I'm not sure why you couldn't feed more of what you are already feeding successfully through the winter months? Or is it because you need to replace browse also? Just asking here, so no attacks please!) Meghan |
Hi Meghan,
Thanks;) We have created a society totally dependent on grain... it feels good to get away from it. The last stages of growing a baby, kidding and freshening take ALOT of calories, as does living outside in an extremely cold winter environment. Those are the times I want to provide denser calories and nutrients, to reduce stress. Lisa |
"The reason that I feel that no-grain won't work for high-production goats is that the grain is a source of energy that the doe needs to keep up this amount of work, without detriment to her health, both long and short term."
I agree, this is how I have come to see it. Similar to a marathon runner...the hay and alfalfa pellets are the everyday great nutrition that an athlete needs while the grains are the high carb pancake dinner that they eat the night before a big race to give them the calories and energy that they need for peak performance. Yeah, they could run without the carb overload, but would they finish well? "in many parts of the world, bags of feed are unavailable, and goats MUST subside on what they find. And yet, these goats still breed, kid, and supply milk for their families." Yes, this is true that in most of the world goats subsist on whatever browse they have access to. ~however~ For many in the western world our goats are bred to produce more than the average goat in Botswana. We have 'fiddled', if you will, with the basic genetics of the goat enough that they give more, hence need more. Cut the grains and while yes, these animals will breed, kid and make milk, I do not think that you would see the 'excess' that we take each day. Perhaps as a consequence, dairy is not as large a part of the diet in other parts of the world as it is here. |
I am currently not feeding any grain, nor hay. We have very fertile and rough rough ROUGH land. The goats are free-ranging and they are the fattest, shiniest creatures that I've ever seen. I have one goat that almost looks metallic!
I will probably have to do something different when the snow comes, but for now they are doing great... My Alpine/Nubian cross milker is milking at 1 gallon a day. 1 1/2 when I was feeding alfalfa. We also have the corn/soy/gluten/casein allergy thing going on.. so we've had to find other ways of feeding our animals to get away from that. My children and I are sensitive to these products and products of animals who eat them. My daughter didn't speak until I took her off from grocery store, soy-fed chicken eggs! Cricket |
Hi Cricket... sorry to hear you're in the same boat but relieved that I'm not alone in this endeavor! So glad your daughter is doing better. Our chickens and dogs are all off of gluten and corn as well- it sure makes everything interesting, and I have no doubt that we all would be healthier without the evil grains.
Lisa |
LOL! You sound like me!
Yes, my dogs and cats are soy-free so far, I've been trying to do the raw food diet thing, since I mainly raise rabbits, but we are still feeding the dogs and cats some hard foods. My rabbits are on all browse as well.. I have the NZ type and some satin mixes. They grow out competitively with the commercial types on pellets.. but it is ok if they weigh a little less, since my rabbits do not seem to have as much dress-out fat on them as the pellet eating ones I had before. My chickens are free-ranged and get some garden scraps here and there as well... it's been a trial with all of the animals, but I do believe that we are finally making a little progress! ^_^ Cricket |
I recently went grain-free with my goats as well. Last year we had our first grass-fed steer, and we noticed such a marked improvement in our health, we decided not to eat any more confinement/grain based meats. Next came switching to pastured eggs, which were very expensive, so we got our own chickens. They do get some grain, because they are not ruminants, but they also get plenty of bugs, weeds, grass (I see them eat green grass), vegetable scraps, and I am going to add some fish meal to their diet to increase the Omega 3 content of the eggs.
It only made sense that our dairy was also forage based. Why should we miss the opportunity for more beneficial milk? for a breakdown of the difference between grain fed milk and 100% grass (or forage) fed, see this link: http://www.eatwild.com/articles/superhealthy.html Golly, you'd think I was torturing my animals with whips and chains, given the "flaming" I got on my goat list! "Copper Penny", the "problems" I have had have little or nothing to do with not giving grain. They have more to do with the fact that my goats grew up in Pennsylvania, as did I, and they were not used to the climate, the massive parasite loads in the Southeast, and the horribly infertile, mineral-poor soil here. Thanks to you and others, I was alerted to the copper problem, and am noticing improvements. Other problems I had were also not related to no grain. I had a case of traumatic mastitis from a goat lifting another in the air by her udder. But I managed to save the goat, and the udder did not turn black and slough off, so that is a victory. (her name happens to be "Victory", too!) While production DOES drop on forage alone, and you really have to make sure they get high quality forages (I cut and carry browse, and supplement with alfalfa cubes), other folks who have tried this report that a host of problems magically disappear when they are eating what ruminants were intended to eat. I forget which issue it was, but The Dairy Goat Journal had an article about a woman who makes artisan cheese with the milk she gets from her 100% browse fed herd. I have misplaced my copy, but it was a couple issues ago. Maybe others here have seen it? As for "energy", if you have high brix grass, that is like candy to them, and afternoon grass has more sugar than morning, or that on a cloudy day, so you might notice fluctuations in production between gloomy and sunny weather. also, goats do need to eat taller browse, so planting different forages in addition to grass in a pasture is a good idea. I try to grow them hybrid pearl millet, which they love, but due to my soil, I have not had much luck with it getting tall enough. I'm going to fix that problem with my pastured chickens and my chicken tractor. I have not really thought of giving my goats fish, but my farrier (who does not like grain feeding for horses, for it causes so many hoof problems) said I can give them an egg now and then. Also, pregnant and lactating deer in the wild have been observed spearing (with their hooves) and eating fish from shallow streams, so even ruminants crave some extra dense proteins now and then. Some have even been observed raiding ornithologists' nets (which they use to capture song birds for studying and banding) and eaten the birds trapped in them! Might not get digested in the rumen, but it does in the fourth stomach. If I see a goat needing extra energy, I plan to give stabilized rice bran pellets, but I think that will be mostly in winter, and in late pregnancy. I got a call two weeks ago from my grass-farming hero, Joel Salatin, and he gave me some good advice on having a successful forage based goat dairy. He suggested watching my herd to see which does foraged the best and kept the best condition while giving a fair amount of milk, and keep the doe kids from them, sell the rest to someone who feeds grain. It may take a few years to get what I want, but I don't necessarily have to ditch my favorite breed (Saanen) I should also grow my browse tall, to minimize parasite loads. Cut and carry works great as well. As for production, while the goats are no longer bursting and waddling, they do fill out and milk fairly well, about a half gallon at a time from my best goat. BUT, it has been 100 degrees, and she gave that last year, and was not as healthy or energetic. I'll see what she gives at her peak next spring, but for now, I am satisfied. These goats are not "milking themselves to death", as someone once warned me they would. They adjust their production if they are fed well but not pushed. I've had a goat or two that would milk themselves to death, even on grain. Something seems to change with the way they metabolize food when they are foraging. The athletes. My husband only eats extra carbohydrates when he goes on bicycle rides longer than an hour. Most distance athletes these days shoot for fat burning because it is slower and steadier. Sugar burns hot and creates lots of free radicals that damage arteries. (not to mention causing too much insulin secretion) If you look at some of these intense athletes, they do carb load, and they do win races, but so many of them are getting cancer at a very young age, and so many bodies break down so early. There is a woman my age who is a world champion, just missed the bronze in the Olympics. She looks VERY old. They are bright stars that burn themselves out. I've seen some bright stars in the goat world die from kidney failure, but they sure could milk like gangbusters! My focus has shifted from getting the highest production possible to getting the most healthful milk possible for my family. You just can't fudge the Omega 3 factor. I mentioned my husband bicycles. He could not do that before, for he was pretty much disabled by an immune disease. So was I. Omega 6 heavy diets lead to inflammation and chronic disease. Forage based meat and dairy have about a 1:1 ratio of Omega 6 to Omega 3. Feedlot beef, for example, has a 20:1 ratio. Poor health and inflammation begin when our diets exceed 4:1. The difference in my family's health is so profound, I would be foolish to turn back.........in spite of the occasional ridicule I still get. Goats die from not eating grain? I haven't eaten grain in three years, and I'm not only still here, but a whole lot healthier than I was when I followed the politically correct (and politically derived) "Food Pyramid"! |
Wow that was an incredibly informative post Lady Marion... thank you for that.
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I am several months into grain free milking also and I have seen only a tiny drop in production over all. about a pint short of a gallon a day. she is 5 months into her lactation at this point and I have put her on free choice alfalfa pellets recently. her production was slgihtly lower when I was feeding 4lbs per day and went back up when I went to free choice to reduce or eliminate parasites. $ wise it was better to have her on limit fed pellets due tothe only slight increase in production on free choice but factoring in the markedly reduced risk of parasites free choiceis worth it.
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This has been a very interesting thread. I think I'll do some readjusting of my milker's diet, because DD and I both have autoimmune diseases. Maybe eliminating grain from my goat's diet would help....
Kathleen |
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