Grain Free Milker update

"All this discussion really comes down to making sure that the animals basic needs are being met. Now that lady Marion has told us more of what she is feeding her animals we can see that she has a source of dependable calcium, protiens and carbohydrates in her animals food and it isn't just high sugar grass, then I can that her animals would probably do o.k. Using alternative sources of feed is o.k., as long as the basic needs are met for dairy goats.

Browse is a great source of micro-nutrients and protien and can even be a good source of calcium for the goats, since many species are very similar to alfalfa in their nutrient profile. The goats in deborahs website look like they need carbs and a copper suplement to me. They are all small and thin. Looking at that I can't believe she doesn't have problems. In any case, she isn't inspiring me to follow her management."

Jo, I have to really agree with you about those scrawny goats. That is definitely NOT my goal, and from what I can tell, she does not feed any alfalfa or grow any nutritious browse as I intend to do (once I address my soil infertility issues) When I step out and call my goats, they look up and start running to me. Their nicely full rumens bounce as they run. Their are perky and happy. It does my soul good to see them like that, and I'll work extra hard to KEEP them looking like that even as I meet my family's particular health needs.

On that note, I got the nicest e-mail from the lady in NM with the many acres of free range browse. She does feed alfalfa. I learned a whole lot from her just in one e-mail, and I can see that while I may have to do something completely different in MY region, there is no reason I can't do this and do this well.

Mnt. Mama, you lost me on the crystals, but hey, to each his/her own, LOL! I'm glad you are going the extra mile to heal your daughter.

Oh, as for HORSES, without starting a new thread, let me just say my farrier, a barefoot specialist, is very much against feeding horses grain unless they have such poor quality grass that they cannot keep condition. Even then he prefers good hay, but we couldn't even find THAT this winter! My horses have been grain free since the grass greened up, and they have never had a better hoof health check-up as they had this time! One of our horses had a clubbed hoof and deformed frog (from the previous owner's neglect and improper trimming). Part of his problem had been he was fed grain and his hooves grew too fast and this one did so abnormally. He is making great progress now on carefully controlled grazing!
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I went to the other ladies site and they had a video about thier cheeses, which included some glimpses of their goats browsing. This ladies goat look much better, healthy, shiny coats ect. Kind of neat. I think you can see a difference that the alfalfa makes for them.

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Jo,

I did not see the video. Thank you for the validation. This is a lady who obviously does it better. I am glad I'm already stubborn about holding onto my alfalfa. If only I could find it locally. My old neighbor Helen Snyder told me to look for peanut hay, but I have not found any of the perrenial kind, just the tops of the peanut crops.....and I lost BIG on buying that because it was so moldy!! I did NOT feed it to my goats once I discovered that. This is NOT the kind she meant! I would love to grow my own perrenial peanut hay. I might look into that.

I know now to go to the NM lady if I need advice. As for the other gal, well, perhaps she should stick to financing, because her goats look riddled with at least coccidia, don't you think? Or, maybe it is just a "heritage breed" she picked up somewhere from some Third World country? LOL!

Now, I have to watch myself. I wouldn't want to get too nasty toward her.....Bottom line, I am glad SOMEBODY is doing this and doing it well. Now I can move forward with confidence.

It may not be popular, but like I have heard it said, any dead fish can go with the flow.....It takes a live one to swim UPstream! Oops, there I go again. Don't want to fan the "flames" again!!!

Vickie,

There were so many posts, I just now found yours on trees. I would be interested in learning that as well.

As for the alfalfa, I was wondering if my heavy use this winter due to lack of hay might have caused my copper problem to be worse. Alfalfa takes up lots of molybdenum, and who knows how mush is in the fields in Seskatchewan!! I am not likely to stop feeding them the cubes until I find something that will be adequate, so the bolus idea is absolutely a godsend. This is something we never learned in 4-H or the show circles in PA, but perhaps because we had less trouble? Still, i wonder what happened to a well-grown doe we had (plenty of grain and alfalfa in our feeding back then) whose knees and pasterns suddenly turned crooked in late pregnancy. Is THAT copper deficiency?

In defense of Weston A Price, the foundation does not go around telling people to starve their goats, so this guy was doing this on his own, obviously wanting the best of the Omega 3 balance for himself without practicing true animal husbandry, which means having a passionate interest in their condition and comfort.

One more thing. What got me the most upset was that nobody seemed concerned about Mt. mama's child and HER needs. We should find ways to help her achieve her goal even if it seems a bit foreign at first. Alaska is a tough call. Aven the moose die there from copper deficiencies! We should be giving idea that support her specific needs.

What also got me upset was the misrepresentation of my own problems as directly from not feeding grain, when I was not even on this forum to speak up! No name mentioned, thank goodness. I sell my kids, and don't need a bad reputation. Maybe it was a misunderstanding, I guess I can grant that.

You wouldn't believe how many problems I had BEFORE when I did give grain, because in my region, the grain is usually pretty bad, and the feed mixes I was getting were making them very sick, especially from local mills or TSC's "Dumor".....which did LESS for them. "Did more" sickness. Recall the Dairy goat forum where I finally found a way to mix my own? Then after Glory got sick last year, a Southern States rep came out and tested all my feed, to make sure it wasn't that. He then arranged for special order of their goat pellets at the dealer. He's coming out after Labor Day to test my soil and help me out there as well.

So yes, I am working hard to make this work. Sometimes I think TOO hard. but once I do get things in place, I can sit back and be PROUD that I have a thriving dairy goat herd in a VERY difficult region. Others here gave up long ago due to heat and parasites. I do NOT want to give up my girls!!!

[QUOTE=Lady Marion;3262717]

One more thing. What got me the most upset was that nobody seemed concerned about Mt. mama's child and HER needs. We should find ways to help her achieve her goal even if it seems a bit foreign at first. We should be giving idea that support her specific needs.

QUOTE]

Well, Gosh I don't really see that you can conclude that from this thread, now can you?

THis is a goat board, so I think we can conclude that she was here seeking comments in the best interest of her goat's health.

When on forums it is impossible to pick up on normally vocal cues in conversation. Often times things are taken hostile and were never intended that way. Often people read too much into things.

Mtn. Mama's original post about getting away from grains more didn't get hostile that I can recall, just an exchange of ideas and thoughts of alternative feeds from most people.

Having a celiac child with many additional allergies, I have been very interested in this "conversation". I suppose like Mtn. Mama, I have goats very much for the benefit of my family's nutrition. Goat milk is the only milk our kids were not allergic to. Now I want to know how I can keep my goats as healthy as I can so they can be healthy and milk well and provide for my family. I would want to be told if A,B or C was going to cause them to be deficient in X,Y or Z and keel off early. I of course am not required to 'act' on any advice given, but I always take all info in and sort through it myself, no matter what subject in my life.

Everybody continues to learn (w/a desire to) their whole life. Doctors, scientists, ranchers, goat owners, ect...nobody knows all or that I have seen is claiming to. And there is no one right way. Everybody's circumstances, goals and needs are different. However some have already been down that road before and would like to prevent you from having to go down it too. Just like with our human kids, we would like to spare them some of the heartache we experienced, but sometimes kids and people just have to learn the hard way for themselves.

This thread could positively be seen as a thread started by a mother concerned over her daughter's allergies/intolerances and wanting to lesson the grains in her goat's diet. She stated that she was willing to provide alternative feeds and wanted more info. on them. She was cautioned that she might have a lot of trouble if she couldn't provide the necessary nutrients at key times of the year.

Then we started throwing out the phrase grass-fed. But again truly nobody was going grass-fed. And there were many threads on that subject.

Then in your post Lady Marion,

" If I have a continued drought, and need to supplement more than I can grow, I will definitely do just that. In winter, I will most likely give some oats and rice if extra energy is needed. If they are not milking, then why not? My children eat these- I do not. They have different nutritional needs.

I have resisted the push from more extreme homesteaders to stop feeding alfalfa (due to having to import it from far away), because I don't want my goats to go lacking if I have not gotten to the point of raising top quality forages.....which includes legumes, forage oats, natural browse, and whatever other green plant helps the goats thrive. "

You calmly converse that you will provide what your goats need nutritionally. That is all most people were trying to help with in this entire thread.

You also state that your kids have different nutritional needs than you. You know that is all most have been discussing on this thread. THat is all I was trying to tell you with the story about the dairy cow in the pasture with the beef cattle. Dairy animals, vs. beef animals, kids vs. adults, ect.

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A Colorado cattle ranching family

http://www.edmundsonherd.blogspot.com

http://www.edmundsonranchgrassfedbeef.webs.com

This was my fist post:

I recently went grain-free with my goats as well. Last year we had our first grass-fed steer, and we noticed such a marked improvement in our health, we decided not to eat any more confinement/grain based meats. Next came switching to pastured eggs, which were very expensive, so we got our own chickens. They do get some grain, because they are not ruminants, but they also get plenty of bugs, weeds, grass (I see them eat green grass), vegetable scraps, and I am going to add some fish meal to their diet to increase the Omega 3 content of the eggs.

It only made sense that our dairy was also forage based. Why should we miss the opportunity for more beneficial milk? for a breakdown of the difference between grain fed milk and 100% grass (or forage) fed, see this link:
http://www.eatwild.com/articles/superhealthy.html

The reference to the article must be where folks misunderstood in the first place, but I can see now that I used the correct term for my goats from the start. I was beginning to wonder!

At least we are clear on it NOW. We eat GRASS FED beef, PASTURED eggs, and FORAGE based goat milk. (Alfalfa is a forage, too!)

I have not found any past threads on "grass fed" anything. Can you provide a link so I can read what you mean?

Oh, even 100% grass fed beef operations tend to separate the age groups, and put finishing steers or nursing cows on the better grass. 100% Grass fed dairy operations do the same. Non-lactating critters can be on less nutritious grass with no loss of condition. There is a lot of attention given to the growth stage and quality of the grass. So, the grass fed beef or dairy farmer becomes a "grass farmer". You could say I must become a "forage farmer", ha, ha!

Back to the fish, though. When your goat eats salmon, Mt. Mama, does the milk taste fishy?

LM- they haven't eaten it regularly enough yet to find out! My dh is a little hesitant about fish for the goats/chickens because the taste might change... like eating coastal ducks/eggs, or eating bears on berries vs. fish. So we'll see about it. I don't plan to use it at the sole or major protein source... but I'll let you know how it turns out.

I would be interested, thanks! I actually know a cattle farmer who mixes ground catfish with his minerals! His beef sells for high retail prices in Charleston, though, so I don't think his animals taste fishy! Of course, it is not a major feed component, and it is a heap better than chicken manure, like some farmers feed.

I even met a beef farmer who fed the sifted hay from the cattle's own manure! He wanted to get every bit of feed he could. Yet how often do we hear folks complaining about how feedlot cattle are raised. Do you know 60% of them have livers so abscessed they cannot be used?......Michael Pollan certainly did a great service to consumers to try to bring feedlot horrors to light, didn't he?

Hey, no wonder the beef from the store tastes so awful...........

I have a 4H book that says to feed chicken litter to dairy goats...

YUCK!!! No way!!!

I don't get into feeding flesh to herbivores. I'll believe the whole deer-harpooning-fish story when I see it.

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I kinda agree with the "I'll believe the whole deer-harpooning-fish story when I see it." Although I do believe what the poster said about the goats stealing their salmon - not sure that was even on this thread.

This thread has gotten interesting, although for me, I think the more natural the feeding is, the better for the goats. Grain free would go hand in hand with natural. In the wild they may get some grain, as in the seeds from grasses, but overall I don't think they would get much. The goats in the wild feed their young on a forage type diet without grain and continue till they are weaned. Domestic goats being milked for long periods and expecting them to continue and give more and above what the kid needs would require more nutrients, but not necessarily from grain. But I am a novice and that is just a gut instinct.

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LinderCroft

Our goats may be related to wild caprine living in the high rocky mountains by a genus, but no more so than we are related or could live a life like the wild apes. Our goats are domesticated by hundreds of years of selection. When you want to go 'natural' with your goats you had better understand the genetics, right or wrong your animals came from. Once you close a gate behind your goat it is no longer a natural life. Thousands of acres in which to roam is a natural life with 50% or higher of mortality in infants, wild animal kills etc...survivial of the fittest is a very hard pill to swallow for most.

For my farm where the girls must pay their way it is going to be much more managed than someone who only milks for house milk. Once again if your goal in goats is grass fed, hay in the winter, than milk meat goats. Or find a dairy goat that is just bred with no thought behind pedigree for more milk or more kids, just good feet and legs and lots of body capacity and width to have enough space in their for a huge rumen. If you look at the website with the skinny goats, they are not only skinny but frail and with a narrow skeleton, without width for that expanding rumen or deapth with good feet and legs to get out and forage, no way can you do this, without the animals health suffering. So in reality even doing all grass correctly you need selection, breeding and heavy culling to only keep animals that thrive, and milk in this condition. Nothing natural about that either Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

I agree, knowing what a goat needs is important. But I disagree with the theory about apes because I don't believe we came from apes. But goats did come from goats. Having a working knowledge of the basics that a goat needs, a person can pick and choose what they feed them and come out with healthy goats. I completely believe that goats do not need grain to remain healthy and fit. I also see nothing wrong with giving goats grain in small amounts, that is each goat keepers choice.

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LinderCroft

I don't know if we came from apes or not. But I do think we're closely related. And I don't see any reason we couldn't live that way if we wanted to. Have you ever tried to live off the land- out in the elements 24/7? I have. Its totally doable.

As far as domestic goats being so far removed from wild goats... what about all the feral goats in the world that thrive- like in New Zealand for instance? They certainly don't get grain. Yet they are able to overpopulate quickly, just like humans.

Ah but Vicki had a good point "Once you close a gate behind your goat it is no longer a natural life. Thousands of acres in which to roam is a natural life with 50% or higher of mortality in infants, wild animal kills etc...survivial of the fittest is a very hard pill to swallow for most." A lot of goats died until they adjusted to their new life. However, I came across this article about tannins and feral goats (as we know, feral was domestic at one time and then reverted back to the wild)... it's quite interesting. http://www.cipav.org.co/lrrd/lrrd6/3/1.htm Today those tannins would more than likely kill our domestic goat today.

I do think that what we know about goats today, if we choose to not feed grain, then we need to know and understand what we can feed them instead. There are alternatives.

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LinderCroft

simply continuing in pleasant conversation here...

I would say sure there are wild goats, just as there are wild horses and ect.... However I doubt those wild goats look or milk anything like what most of us have in our barns or expect from our goats, and I doubt they live very long lives.

And along the same lines. Somebody mentioned the negatives of graining horses also. Sure most pet/non working horses will not miss it and will become the fat loathes that most of them are. However just like a working goat--pregnant/lactating, a working horse requires those extra calories from the grain.

Now sure there are wild horses all over the place, and they get along fine w/nothing supplemented. But nobody is using them hard either.

wild goats vs. typical dairy goats...really there is no comparison. We have bred them for years and improved their genetics and they are a different animal with higher production and higher needs. It is not possible to expect them to live like a wild goat, as they no longer are one.

my thoughts.

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A Colorado cattle ranching family

http://www.edmundsonherd.blogspot.com

http://www.edmundsonranchgrassfedbeef.webs.com

MayLoc, wild horses commonly go 20-30 miles per day, they work hard. That said, some horses (like TBs) just don't hold weight well and often need something richer in calories than grass- and yes some horses are worked harder than a wild one, like maybe working cow horses. Extra calories can be through grain, oil, beet pulp etc. I would be more against graining a horse than a goat. It doesn't usually do them good.

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S.G.

Sure.
Although I would be quite surprised if wild horses regularly traveled 20-30 m./day. And whatever they travel it is normally at a walk as they graze and centered around there watering holes. And yes hands down working cow horses work far harder than wild horses and most others. ANd they also live a better life and outlive the wild ones many times over. They are used hard and cared for the best they can be, because they are just that...working horses and needed...just like the working goat vs. wild goat. It's all along the same lines...working and higher needs.

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A Colorado cattle ranching family

http://www.edmundsonherd.blogspot.com

http://www.edmundsonranchgrassfedbeef.webs.com

Working to survive in nature is "less work" than being raised domesticated? O_O

Cricket