Best cure Known for worms.
 

Best cure Known for worms. :)

Keep less goats. On more pasture.
Use pasture rotation in that the goats are never in the same place for more than 2 days a month.


All the worming in the world wont make up for feed lot conditions and poor livestock management.


:soap:

I absolutely agree. but feedlot conditions aren't what create the problem if you are talking about intestinal bloodsucking parasites. in fact dry lot conditions prevent worm loads because the parasites are picked up while grazing. no grazing means no parasites. there are many reasons related to disease to avoid feed lot conditions though. and also we must acknowledge that it would be nice if we could all stock 1 goat per acre but with a watchful eye and judicious use of anthelmintics higher stocking rates can be achieved and therefore a more economical product can be obtained. me for instance. :) I want a few boers and a few milkers. I only have 2 acres to run them on and that is too high a stocking rate to eliminate parasite problems. but I only have one life to live and I'm not going to wathc it go by not doing the things I want just so that I don't have to worm a few goats. :)

Who said 1 goat per acre?

Also feed lot management isn't generally practiced by folks with small herds. They are for instance kept on dirt with access to "the back of the feed bin" to contaminate the whole lot. So while I agree that true feed lot conditions can reduce worm load. Fact is most folks don't even have a clue on what that is.

On this forum there are literally hundreds of posts about worms/worming/fecials ect. If these folks were tought proper animal husbandry rather than a hybred of feed lot/ pasture or better stated they keep their stock in a pasture "like" feed lot. They would have more success and less issues.

I suspect this is one of those threads that's going to get people in a froth.

Part of the goat worm problem is that not everyone can afford enough acreage of brush for the goats they have/want/need.

We do the best we can with what we have. We study and learn and improve.

All of us started as rookies. :)

stanb999, you must be talking to me from your box. I haven't been "taught proper animal husbandry." Also, I am clueless as to what "true feed lot conditions" are. Is there a book I could buy?

Why do you use a two-day stay in the same place as opposed to a three-day or five-day stay? Wait, if a two-day stay is the best cure, wouldn't a one-day stay be better?

Paul

NE PA. on a mountain
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On a mountain that freezes?

Even your best pasture rotation practice won't work down here, because eventually your goats have to go back into that first pen, it is not arid enough nor cold enough here to kill any parasites. Imgaine moving a milk string around like that....Nubians hate change, they would be crashing into unopened gate 7 when they were supposed to be going through gate 8 today :) Vicki

It's not very feasible for many people, especially people with small acreages and only a couple goats.

ROFLMBO!!!!!!!
So true. hehehehehe

I second that - all of that, Rose. :bow:

Now Vicky..... We have had Many disagreements in the past... Right?

But if you move goats every day from one rotation to the next then back to the barn at night. You do this every day. This would be the accepted routine.

The reason I posted this thread is that there are an awful lot of threads about worms and worming. If they really wish to rid themselves one must change the method. You taught me that quite a while back with having Kids at -5F and how this related to keeping the buck with the herd full time. Buy the way I still keep them together full time I've just made provisions for heating the barn. ;)

Well Paul,

A proper feed lot has feed and water at one side that the animals can only reach with their head. A dry lot so to keep mud to the minimum to non existent. You supply only the room required to move from bed to table and back. You clean this of all manure build up on a daily basis. The floor can be concrete or stone. But sand is preferred.

Look it up and you can gain Knowledge.

Yes a one day stay would be superior but most folks don't have enough animals to justify that extreme. Look up rotational grazing. You will learn some about proper grazing and nutrition.

This is the real problem. It's not about acreage. It's about using what you have correctly. For instance how may that keep their goats in a small lot clean it at least once a week... Twice a month?.... Never?. Yeah they clean the barn but not the small paddock.

I'm just curious..how many goats do you have and how do you rotate that often? What's the size of the pasture they are in for 2 days a month? What kind of fencing do you use to accomplish this?

OK. Rose was right AGAIN. Froth…

I’m no longer interested in an answer as to why two days vs. three days. OP claims that “two days is the best cure,” then tells me that one day is superior. HUH??? Never mind. Don’t try to answer it. I’ll just get more prattle.

I’ve noticed that when Rose, Vicki and many others make absolute statements, they list the website for reference; or thoroughly explain the why. People with real knowledge don’t tell posters to LOOK IT UP.
Paul

I have culled/sold them down to 4 because the others wouldn't keep weight during winter. Where I'm at it is winter conditions from Nov. to April. A goat that can't maintain on just hay in these conditions can't stay. I have one more that will probably have to go as well. She lost quite a bit of weight over this past winter, but maintained her thrift. So I'm gonna see how she does by Feb. if it isn't great she will go to the sale barn. The only reason she is still here is she is as sweet as pie and follows you around like a dog. So I really hope she does better.

We don't do rotational grazing because of the hard freezes and large pasture sizes. This will have change as the herd grows for the summer pasture tho. They have a wooded/brush "pasture" for winter it's about 2 acres in size. This isn't used at all for the five months of summer. The summer pasture is about 2.5 acres with 1 acre being brush and 1.5 being grass pasture. It contains a mix of clover and cold season grasses.

This year I'm planting some turnips in the winter pasture to give them winter browse. They maintain nutrition into late fall to early winter. In fact. They give as much protein and forage as an acre of alfalfa in summer. The back of the winter pasture is surrounded by brush and contains large trees. This blocks the worst of the winter storms and hard north wind.

The area I'm in a modern goat really isn't a "perfect" animal so I will continue to cull/sell hard and hope to get a strong, large, and hardy goat that can survive these rather harsh conditions. Doesn't need constant medicine. Doesn't need to be barn kept, Doesn't kid in early to mid- winter. Is hairy as a musk OX (this will be difficult). So this is my longer term goal.

Ok, so we are getting advice on goat management from a small time unsuccessful goat breeder. I am too, but I'm not acting like an expert on goat management.

You might want to look into Spanish goats. They've already met most of your requirements by running wild without any management at all in North America for centuries. You might have trouble with the kidding part though.

I'm not unsucessful. I'm trying to do something very specfic. Not just trying to get a quart or three a day of milk or win a prize at the county fair. Those are easy. just keep them clean, feed and water, Spend a little cash.

The herd I have now are a total mix. They consist of.

Lamancha for the short ears and heavy outer coat of gaurd hairs.
No frost bite on ears.
Blocks cold wind.

Boar for the large size and easy weight gain.

Nubian for the down like close hair and milk production.


P.S. the spanish goat is fine for the drier/warmer climates of the south west. My climate is very different than that.

ohhh I see. From your post I had pictured you moving a bunch of goats to a different area every 2 days. So, since I free range my 3 mini goats on 10 acres and we have brutal, frozen, long winters...then my goats should not need worming? I have been worming them but I will have more information as soon as I get a fecal done. Thanks! :)
Here are some pics of my goats free ranging....They do have access to woods, hay fields and grass.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8...D480/ry%3D320/
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We move the herd in the early spring and late fall from the winter pasture to the summer if the conditions permit it (daily if needed). The first few times it can be a challenge but after a few days they get it and run. The real pain is they are on opposite sides of the road. Think blind curve/ fast traffic.

To the worming. You may be suprised that you don't need it. Here we "worm" twice a year only. Once in spring and once in winter. I use the ivomec pour on as I have more of an issue with mites and lice than worms. In fact I don't think we have worms. But I never did a fecal. In late winter the mites can cause a loss to thrift so they get it. We also didn't have the mites till 2 springs ago when we got a "new" Boer girl that brought them. She is gone so I hope they are too. But I've worked hard to delouse every thing. We worm when they go to the summer pasture as a precaution. So up until last year it was only once a year.

Those goats aren't free ranged...... They are free. Too cool. :) Ours wont stay out of the road.

What's with the goat coat? Did you shave it for a show?

No..I don't show these goof balls. Gretta was just feeling self conscience about her middle being so large while pregnant so I put a dog coat on her ;)

Ahh yes, now I get it. Our ladies kinda flaunt it as a sigh of their femininity. I just wish the boy wouldn't flaunt his man hood quite so much. He shows it around like it's a prize.:p

Too funny!

that is where I get one goat per acre. that is my personal estimation of a stocking rate that would eliminate parasite problems in my area. and you said "feedlot conditions" not "peoples misconstrued ideas of what feedlot conditions are"

stan999 "Also feed lot management isn't generally practiced by folks with small herds"


I disagree. most feedlot/drylot conditions are practiced by people with small herds. they have smallherds because they have limited acreage and would otherwise have to have high stocking on the pastures (in order to maintain a decent size herd with some genetic possiblities) and that creates the parasite issues. for large commercial herds feed lot conditions are not economically viable. smaller more selectivly maintained herds are able to get higher prices for the offspring an can therefore justify spending more on feed which is obvioulsly neccesary in feedlot situations.

I think your assuming everyone is in the same situation and has (or should have) the same prioritys as you. sorry. not realistic.

I think you misunderstood my statement. It's not that feedlot conditions aren't present. I believe they are very prevalent. What is often absent is proper feedlot management. They treat their feed lot as a pasture. I can respect folks that can succeed in many of the more difficult husbandry practices. For instance Keeping goats in a barn every night is a lot of work with all the cleaning chores v/s keeping them in a loafing shed and freshening the bedding every week or so.

I agree that keeping good stock can entail higher prices. But I disagree that higher inputs automatically are offset by higher market prices. Often the lowest inputs with the best quality makes a tiny bit of cash. Everyone else just loses more with added costs.

I also think that the most profitable animals are of the highest quality possible with minimal input and feed costs are not automatically offset by higher sale prices attained but it is possible. some people aren't in it for a monetary profit either and those people also want healthy productive animals. each to his own.

So,
How was my comment on worming wrong?
Was my comment on how folks are raising them wrong?
Are most of the health problems folks have caused by cramped conditions?
Is less medicine and more care the real cure?

So you come and criticize me for saying the truth? You just don't seem to like it.

I stand By the first post....

Best cure Known for worms.

Keep less goats. On more pasture.
Use pasture rotation in that the goats are never in the same place for more than 2 days a month.


All the worming in the world wont make up for feed lot conditions and poor livestock management.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8...D480/ry%3D320/
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I just loved those pictures!!

I have mini Nubians too (and a couple mixed girls.) We free range from 5 am. until about 9 or 10 p.m.(I put them up in a fenced area at that time.) They haven't taken care of my brush as much as I would like just yet but hopefully with time they will.

http://bp0.blogger.com/_R9Na04dnJgA/...our+online.jpg

Even though they have 30 acres in front of our house, about 40 behind it, and it's about 70 on the one side (a total of 11 goats) they still have a worm load problem (we are in the South so that may have something to do with it.)

I am not sure but I would also guess that worm loads can also come from other animals such as deer and maybe other issues with snails and so on (like I said I am just guessing.) OR- it could be even though they have all that land they don't use it!! I can't get them off of the first 4-5 acres unless I go out with them (then they follow me. When I was a kid I never thought I'd grow up to stand and watch goats most of my day but it looks like that's what I am doing.lol)

We free range our chickens (our new ones are in a pasture until they know where home is for sure but our old ones are out) and turkeys too and no one seems to want to leave the first 4-5 acres. I am still asking why we bought all this land?! lol..

I don't disagree the more land the better but I wish my animals would use it.

Dora Renee' Wilkerson

p.s.
Did I say I loved those pictures:goodjob:? Too cute!!!

All you gotta do to get them to go further is fence it so they must climb it to get back there. Then the only thing in the world they will want to do is go back. :p

So youve hardly got any goats, and the ones you had weren't being FED WELL ENOUGH ,and you live where worms cant survive
I dont think that qualifies you as a worm or goat expert

See post 26

You don't have to move them every two days - unless they have eaten everything in their movable pen.

We use electric netting and move ours every couple days for that reason, but based on the HC life cycle, you can safely give them 4 days per paddock, no problem

And you need to rest it more than a month. 45 days will cover two full HC life cycles.

You also do not need to have less goats. MIG actually works best with higher concentrations of animals. Nutrient cycling and all that.

But life - and running a dairy - sometimes gets in the way of MIG. It is not something most people can do successfully the first time they try. We are working toward it, but have had to just free range them when we had other farm emergencies - as tend to happen. This is why we still use fecaling, FAMACHA checks, etc. I don't think the fact that our goats have worms says we don't have good management practices. But thank you for your opinion.

.................................................. .

This is really typical of cool weather worms. Warm weather worms suck blood and kill production, meat and the goats, espeically hard working moms and weaning kids. Cool weather worms eat your goats alive. Do you fecal at all to see if this was the problem? Vicki

And you need to rest it more than a month. 45 days will cover two full HC life cycles.
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This is only true with a little prayer :) One part of the lifecycle lives arrested in the goat or soil until a stressor in the goat (adrenilin, hormones from heat or kidding etc.) or water in the enviornment allows it to float up into the grass to be reaten. With no rain at all this last month, and now we are due for rain, it is worm emergency time. Rain after a drough will kill more goats in the south than after kidding.

Love Lisa's posts, she is doing it running a dairy, selling cheese, not talking about it. Vicki

paul i like that ;)

So you say I'm wrong? Well if you did as I suggest you wouldn't need to worm your goats. A 30 day/ 2 day will break a worming cycle over time. Prior to all the worming by well intentioned but wrong headed people a goat didn't need wormed. Thats why the USDA still doesn't approve Wormers. Also, if you feed less grain and sweet feed with more hay and browse you will greatly lessen the worm load.

Also, I have one little question for the "dairy" owners. Whats the official withdrawal time for a milking doe so the milk can legally be sold or you meat sellers? :) Or are you really just going by the seat of your pants? I certainly hope your not selling illegal milk or animals for slaughter that can't be approved and announcing it on the net.

Sounds more like a threat of bloat or flounders than worms. Putting a goat on lush pasture can cause problems if they are unaccustomed.

Stan you are just itching for another of the many posts in which you look even 'less wise' and I waste my time typing about something you don't deal with, no nothing about and can't add anything to the conversation.

You don't even fecal to KNOW if what you speak about is true or not. Obviously if you can't keep weight on goats in the winter it's either nutritional or it's winter worms. So you sell the goats instead of spending $10 to fecal and find out.

Sorry but I do this for a living, it isn't wise buisness practice to shoot yourself in the foot so you can go on a forum and prove this old lady in the woods in Texas is wrong.

What I do.....It's wrong for your farm, it is not wrong for mine. I would not have a paycheck tommorrow if I practiced goating like you. And you never have taken me up on the dueling Schedule F's at dawn :) Vicki

I surely hope you aren't getting profit from Dairy or meat. On a goat that got wormer.

Dairy inspector was here Monday. We are fine, and legal thanks for asking. And you would be surprised what things are "legal" in milk, though we follow a higher standard than what is laid forth in the regulations. It's just how we roll.

Vicki-- you got rain???!!!?!?!? None here yet, but I am sure we will have worm-a-palooza if we ever get any. It's been a couple months. :( Though we are learning that these conditions - really hot and dry - are actually good in the scheme of worm issues. We may just sanitize our pastures by cooking the bejeebus out of 'em. ;)

Stan....there are milk withdrawal times for wormers, and by the time my girls are on the milkstring with milk for the public the milk withdrawal is long passed, having been wormed the day they kid. There are zero milk withdrawal wormers because they do not bind in the fat of the goat (butterfat). Texas A&M does a really good job for us Texas gals in keeping us up to date on all this, as does our very large goat club. The USDA does not test milk for worming meds they test it for antibiotic residue, of which I rarely use any on my farm. A doe on antibiotics here is severely ill, certainly not well enough to jump up on the milkstand twice a day.

Blue Heron runs a legal dairy/cheese plant. I am illegal as the day is long. I make up for it by stopping at all green lights.

((Finally got some rain today, some hurricane!)) I dont' know about your place but lush green grass?? Nope more like sandy golf course links. Vicki