CL abscess?

sgian · #21 06/03/08, 11:01 PM

The vet was supposed to send off the samples yesterday, and said that I should know within two weeks. Other than loneliness at being by himself without any goats or people to be in the pasture with him, Stinker is doing fine. He is a big, otherwise very healthy Spanish/Nubian mix who stands well over 6 feet tall on his hind feet and can jump fences higher than any other goat I have (he is being contained so far with a fence almost 6' tall). As far as worms or other diseases, he had been the hardiest goat of them all. And he is a big baby who loves attention from anybody but dogs. He has already forgiven me for lancing that abscess. It would be a shame to have to put him down.

Could it be anything other than CL when he has that cheesy pus in his abscess?

Also, he has already been bred with some of my other does, and I suspect that at least one of them is pregnant. Could his semen have passed CL to them? Also, one time when my wife was working on a rope he came up behind her and ejaculated onto her face and shoulder. Some of it got into her mouth, but she rinsed repeatedly and got very upset when I made a joke about it. (He ejaculated quite often and sometimes for no apparent reason.) We got kicked outside at the vet's office when he greeted the vet with an ejaculation (and then I was told to put him in my truck because he was going after straw on the ground, feed bags, and ferns hanging from the eaves), he ejaculated in the back of my truck when a lady came up to take a pic of him, he ejaculated when he got his first look at the 6' fence I built for him, and so on. We won't go into his breeding behaviors. ). So should I be concerned about the semen too? If so then much of my property could be contaminated since he was so easily excited and I had so much trouble containing him (once he watched me add extra barbed wire around most of a pasture with a seemingly bemused look on his face, and then when I was about 3/4 of the way done and starting to make sarcastic comments to him about not being able to get out anymore he hopped over an almost 5' high section I had just finished and nonchalantly started browsing on the other side of the fence.)

Minelson · #22 06/03/08, 11:07 PM

OMG! Stinker! that is soooo funny. Thanks for giving me a good laugh before heading to bed. He sounds like such a character...looks like one too.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #23 06/04/08, 12:01 AM

No he isn't ejaculating CL bacteria all over your farm

It's really contained in the abcess and the material that comes out of it until it is healed 100%.

Yes of course lots of things cause abscess but this is exactly how you should treat it and use this pen he is in for your cl pen if you need one. Just don't lance them anymore, have the vet take one out whole for you, watch him so you can do it yourself, then send the abscess to the lab to see if it contains cornybacterium. If it doesn't contain cornybacterium than it isn't CL. The blood tesst is bunk and it really is going to give you false hope if it is negative...sorry. Watch him carefully if that bloodtest is negative...hopefully whatever the vet collected besides the blood will come back readable. Vicki

sgian · #24 06/04/08, 09:23 AM

I was planning on drawing blood from the rest of my goats to test for CL (and CAE). Since the blood test is bunk, should I not bother doing blood tests for CL on the rest of my goats?

susanne · #25 06/04/08, 11:21 AM

with an active case, i would blood test all of them. although the test is not as accurate as we would like it, a whole herd test will give you an idea. also more frequent testing for the coming two years will give you a good picture.
you might want to call UC Davis and talk to one of the Dr about the test and reliability.
if you decide to keep this buck, make it a habit and go with your hands along the lymphatic way every couple of days. you can do that to your other goats too. any external abscess can be detected before it ruptures and contaminate your barn or pasture. most abscess will form at the place where your buck had it but sometimes they will show up at places where it is hard to see them and may go unnoticed, between front legs at the brisket for example. of course there is no way to see internal abscess and most goats that had external one, will have them internally too.

you can talk to UC about a vaccination program for your herd.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #26 06/04/08, 12:04 PM

You also will not know with positive test results if they are positive because they have CL or have been vaccinated in the past. Vicki

susanne · #27 06/04/08, 01:09 PM

best would be to ask previous owner if they had been vaccinated.
this is exactly the reason why most dairy breeders don' vaccinate their animals. the test can not differentiate between positive or vaccinated. only if titer is high in an active case, you'll know.

sgian · #28 06/07/08, 08:05 AM

Stinker somehow got the gate open sometime last night. I looked out the window when I got up and saw him going through the compost pile. He was very proud of himself, and his belly was bigger this morning than it was last night. Most of the new growth on his favorite pear tree was also gone. He wanted attention, and then followed me back into to his pasture like a puppy without having to be leashed or dragged.

The abscess is healing up nicely and is much smaller now. We hope to get the results next week. If the abscess heals up completely, I would be tempted to wait until the next abscess forms to slaughter him if he has CL. He can't spread the CL if he doesn't have an abscess, right?

The dog didn't come out until Stinker was secured back in the pasture.
CL abscess? - Goats

susanne · #29 06/07/08, 08:21 AM

he sure is a handsome boy and i understand your pain.
the problem with cl positive animals is not only the risk of spreading the disease with a ruptured external abscess but with internal abscess that you don't see. most of them are in the lungs and get spread through coughing and some are in the intestine and spread with poop.
if you still want to keep him on your place, make sure it will be, where you do not keep goats for the next couple of month ( or years, nobody has the correct answer yet) and where he can not get out.
i still think a vaccination program would work in your favor and strongly recommend to talk to somebody at UC Davis about it.

mpete · #30 06/09/08, 03:29 PM

Have you gotten stinkers results back yet?

**mygoat** · #31 06/09/08, 04:06 PM

CL vaccines won't stop abscesses from occurring in already infected animals. Meat herds often vaccinate their herd when they have a positive so that they can use the vaccine as a cover.

I believe the blood test is fairly accurate and with routine testing, can be a very helpful tool. Over the years the test has been improved and while it isn't perfect, is fairly accurate enough to be a valuable tool in disease eradication and prevention.

Starting a tested herd requires an initial test, followed by another test in 3 months. After that, every 6 months or yearly depending on your herd. Isolation of all new goats and at least two testings before introduction to the herd - better yet, buy from a clean herd (but still test on your own property, as the stress of the move can cause the diseases to occur) If you show or interchange stock often, testing every 3-6 months is recommended. If possible, house the show string apart from your closed herd so you can test just the show string more often and cut costs a little bit.

susanne · #32 06/09/08, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

CL vaccines won't stop abscesses from occurring in already infected animals. Meat herds often vaccinate their herd when they have a positive so that they can use the vaccine as a cover.

I believe the blood test is fairly accurate and with routine testing, can be a very helpful tool. Over the years the test has been improved and while it isn't perfect, is fairly accurate enough to be a valuable tool in disease eradication and prevention.

unfortunately not true. the test is not as accurate as we would like it. still, the actual content of an abcsess is the only way to get reliable result.

also vaccination can help to limit the damage if one animal had an abscess. it may not 100% protection but some herds seem to have success with it.

i doubt meat goat breeder just vaccinate because they want to cover the true status, but instead try to minimize spreading of the disease.
a closed herd is only closed if none of the animals leave the farm, not even shows, and no new animals come in. it is plain too much work to have a show herd in a different corner of a property, having two separate milk rooms, and changing shoes and clothes before doing chores. no such thing as a closed herd in show animals.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #33 06/09/08, 05:05 PM

The other problem is that stress brings on abscess. So in their own herd over the years, vaccinated or not you may never see another abscess. Lots of cures to CL include the fact that no other abscess is seen, not much of a cure

I dealt with CL and CAE in half of our dairy for years, I wouldn't wish this on anyone. And once a doe was purchased and went through one or two abscess, surgically removed and tested, they rarely if ever had another abcess (8 years worth). We also know that the test is only reliable on the exude, and there is no new testing for cornybacterium...it's either positive for negative in the blood, and we have tests on a doe who was positive at UC Davis on exude and negative on blood the same day.

Vaccination may hold the disease at bay in the herd of origin.

Vaccination does nothing for goats with abscess, UC Davis did a paper on CL vaccination several years back during the boer goat boom, and all the talk of testing to get a level of this or that, then vaccination, then testing and the level was different if vaccinated...was debunked then. Positive is positive, no lab can tell the difference between vaccinated or positive for the disease and negative can still mean positive for the disease.

Buying from those who are like minded about how they manage disease on their farm becomes key in being able to deal with disease on your farm later on. I personally won't slice and dice or formaline abscess, vaccinate or pretend that letting a communicable disease into the meat supply is ok.

I am glad this chapter is over at my farm and I don't want it back. Vicki

**mygoat** · #34 06/09/08, 05:37 PM

Susanne, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

susanne · #35 06/09/08, 06:39 PM

that's okay

sgian · #36 06/13/08, 08:31 PM

We called today for the results, and left a message. The abscess has healed and there is now just a scab.

It is interesting to hear that stress brings on an abscess. My wife says she first noticed the abscess forming about the time that we tethered a donkey in the same area as Stinker. They had some things to work out, and then Stinker stopped being so amorous towards the donkey and kept his distance. Perhaps the stress was Stinker's broken heart at being refused by the donkey?

Minelson · #37 06/13/08, 09:19 PM

Nothing worse than being refused by a donkey LOL! Let us know when you get the results...my fingers and toes are crossed for a good outcome for Stinker

crazygoatgal · #38 06/17/08, 09:41 AM

What happened?

sgian · #39 06/18/08, 01:24 PM

We talked to the vet again today and asked about the results. By now we should be getting results for blood work on most of our goats (except the two small ones) but they haven't gotten anything in yet. The vet only took about a cc of blood and a cc of pus when we brought Stinker in, and I've been wondering if that has caused the delay. The vet seemed a little scared of Stinker's size, horns, and potential disease so he had trouble drawing samples. Stinker did not like the needles and is a big strong boy.

Minelson · #40 06/21/08, 02:10 PM

How is Stinker doing? Any results yet?