I don't know what breed these kids are...

There were no Boers on the premesis that I saw. The only buck I saw there, if I remember correctly, was smaller than my doe and was brown all over, with white spots. He was a cross, I thought she said Alpine-something at the time... maybe she thought he was an Alpine cross? Perhaps I misheard her when I thought she said "dwarf", maybe she'd said something else. I'll have to email her.

That is her udder, it ends just level with her front knee, there in the pic. Could we still keep *her* for milking, as long as we bred her to a very good buck in the future (so we could get decent doelings for milking?) What should I do with the kids, sell 'em off after they're weaned?

I wish DH hadn't been so impatient to get a goat, we might have ended up with something a lot better. But milk goats are SO hard to find around here... Boers, on the other hand, are all over the place!

Really? How hard would it be to get enough cream from a boer to make butter?

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Easier than with a regular dairy doe. The part-Boer doe I was milking was, as I said above, only 3/8 Boer (and half very good quality Oberhasli, with an eighth Togg thrown in), and there was quite a bit of cream on top of her milk after a couple of days in the frig. The reason I got that doe was because the milk from the Kinders that I already had was way too rich for my Grandmother (she drinks 2% from the store, and has what we think are gall-bladder problems when she gets too much fat), and, not knowing that Boers had richer milk than dairy breeds, I thought this doe would be good for both milk for Grandma, and for breeding pack goats. (She was big -- taped at 200 lbs.) Well, I still have her daughter and wethered son, and they will make good packers (and I milk the doe), but her milk was about as rich as the Kinder milk -- I couldn't tell any difference by taste, and Grandma couldn't drink it. Some people who have had Boers and part-Boers on test have reported butterfat percentages as high as eight percent, which is much higher than most standard-sized dairy goats. I had a half-gallon jar of her milk in the frig for three or four days, and it had at least three inches of thick cream on top of it. So yes, you could get enough cream for making butter! (She was also a good milker -- she's the doe I mentioned above who peaked at fourteen pounds per day.) The one down-side to the Boer crosses is that they seem to have thicker skin than the dairy breeds, which makes them a little harder to milk. But they do tend to have nice temperaments.

Just watch the quality of the feet and udders -- these are weak areas in a lot of Boer lines.

Kathleen

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I know you not completely satisfied expecting something different, so I will take all three goats for free and they will be happy with me, and I will give them a .................................



bumpus
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I think your doe will be a little bit hard to milk with that udder, but she's worth a try. Especially if she has a good temperament and is easy to milk. Go ahead and breed her to the best dairy buck you can find -- if all that's in your area is Boers, you may have to do some serious study of locally available bloodlines, and choose a Boer or part-Boer buck out of a really really good doe. You are especially looking for a VERY well-attached udder to try to counteract her dangly one. You can also compare the scrotums of the bucks you look at -- a buck with a dangly scrotum that hangs way down is said to be likely to throw daughters with similar udders.

You might also, if you have a chance, go back and take a look at the buck that is purported to be the father of your kids; also ask if the doe might ever have been exposed to a different buck (since she kidded way earlier than you expected, it's possible). See what you can find out about that buck, and his mother, sisters, and other daughters if any. (He may in fact have sired all three of your kids; the color could be coming from the dam, if she's part Boer.)

Just to make you feel better, my first doe had a fairly decent udder, but her teats were the size of summer sausages, and she was a first-freshener (three years old, though)! They were hard to milk the first year we had her (probably a significant contribution to my carpel tunnel), but after she kidded again the second year it was like her udder just fell into her teats, and I couldn't milk her at all anymore. It was too bad, as she was a good doe in all other respects, and a very good milker, but she went to the auction for meat. I learned my lesson with her, and ever since then have paid more attention to the udder and teats!

It's possible to breed good animals up out of one with a major flaw like your doe's udder, but watch carefully and if they aren't showing significant improvement after a couple of generations of breeding to good bucks, you'd be best off culling the whole line and getting better animals, even if you have to pay a bit more to get them from farther away. Some flaws can be pretty dominant. A few years ago, when I still lived in New Hampshire, I was trying to get a commercial dairy herd of purebred Nubians started, and got some kids from a lady in Pennsylvania who had (and probably still has) some of the highest-milking Nubians in the country. She had some animals in her herd with good udders, but also some, descended from one of her first does, with pretty poor udders -- they pumped out the milk, so she kept that line. But quite a few generations of breeding to bucks from good-udder lines hadn't done much to improve on that line of goats for her. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Hopefully yours will! (And tell your husband, it never pays to be in a hurry when it comes to buying livestock!)

Kathleen

She just has the one buck, so he probably is the sire of all 3. I emailed her to ask her what breed(s) he is, specifically.

There are a few dairy sires in my area, I'm sure, but it's really hard to find female milk goats for sale around here (and by "here" I mean within 100 miles) because when one goes up for sale, they are snatched up fast. We have a friend who has 6 Nubian does and when they all kidded this spring, he decided to keep every one of the doelings (darn, because we were hoping to get one from him).

If the doe turns out to be a good milker (despite her low udder), I guess that would be good... she was $150, so that's a pretty good bargain for 4 goats. And I'd only have to get 300 pounds of milk out of her to make up her purchase price (that doesn't include feed costs, though).

And I could always use a Maggidan's Milker-type thing on the doe if her udder is too low to use a bucket with, right?

(But still, what do I do with her kids? Sell 'em off cheap and put the money towards a nicer dairy goat?)

Is there any way to tell the quality of a maiden doeling's udder before she is bred?

There really isn't any way to tell about a young doe's udder other than breeding her and waiting to see what you get. Do you know how old your doe is? Because most likely she didn't start out that bad -- yearlings usually have fairly small udders.

You definitely wouldn't want to keep your little buck for breeding; you could wether him and train him for packing and a cart goat; or put him in the freezer; or if you make too much of a pet out of him and can't butcher him yourselves, take him to the auction. But it might be worth keeping the two young does to see how they turn out. One or both of them might end up with a better udder than the older doe. And, if you can breed her to a buck who is known for improving udders, you might improve her future daughters.

How do your doe's teats look? Could you post a closer picture of her udder? If her teats are a reasonable size, you will probably be able to hand milk her (hand milking is at least as easy as the Maggidan milker -- that's best for goats with teats too small for hand milking). You might have to use a low pan to milk into, depending on how much room there is under her udder. I usually position my milking pail a little forward of the udder, anyway (keeps it farther away from the back feet in case the doe starts hopping around), so you can probably make it work.

If you have a choice of breeds when you go looking for a buck to breed your doe to, I would put Nubian at the bottom of the list for now (I mention this because you said your friend has Nubians). Nubians have good milk and many good qualities, but a lot of them still -- after many of years breeding selection -- have udders that aren't really well attached. You are more likely to find really good udders if you look at Alpines, Saanens, maybe LaManchas (I don't know much about them), and Oberhaslis and Toggs. In other words, the Swiss mountain breeds. If your doe had a better udder, you could breed to a Nubian with no problem, but since that's her weak area, better pick one of the other breeds. (Now, someone near you might have a REALLY good Nubian buck who throws extremely well-attached udders -- they do exist! In that case, never mind what I just said; go ahead and use the Nubian, LOL!)

Have you had a chance to check your young does to see if they have good teats? That would be the one thing that would disqualify them, in my book. (I mean, check to make sure they don't have double teats -- you should be able to tell even right after they are born. You might have an extra teat branching off a main one, or two side-by-side but joined, like holding two fingers together. Double teat orifices are possible, too, but I'm not sure how visible that would be on a day-old kid. The older kid should be easier to tell on.)

Kathleen

Her udder is actually lop-sided right now... it wasn't that bad before she kidded... it was only a little lop-sided then The kids seem to be feeding off each side, so I'm not sure what the problem is. (Her first birth was a singleton... could that have been it?)

What is that skin-tag type thing near her teat? Is that another teat that never developed? That's not a trait I'd want her to pass along, right? (I did not notice that when we bought her!)



Should've held out for a much better-quality goat. But if she milks with no problems, and gives good milk, then she'll be usable for now... she has a good disposition and is an experienced milker.

Oh, I forgot to say I definitely have no plans to keep the buckling for breeding... I'll see about having him castrated in the next week or two, but I don't know whether we want to keep him as a pack animal (when will we have time to go on any trips, if we have goats at home to milk?) or sell him off.

Yes, that looks like it could be an extra teat there. You definitely want to check both of your doe kids for the extra teats -- if the newborn has one that's separated like the doe has, it could be removed quite easily if it's done right away.

She looks like she has smallish teats, but should be milkable. Have you tried to milk her yet?

Lopsided udders often don't show when the doe is dry, so don't feel bad about not noticing that. It might not even have been that lopsided the last time she was in milk. It's not an uncommon thing to see, just not really desirable, but as long as she milks okay, it's less of an issue than the poor attachments.

I'm also looking at the doe's feet -- she's really down on her pasterns. If you compare her legs and feet with the newborn kids, you'll see the difference. Their feet are good, the way a goat's feet should be. The doe is actually pretty bad in that last picture (couldn't really see that in the earlier ones). I am going to guess that the Boer coloring in the kids came from her -- she does look like she could be part Boer, even though she's solid white (that colored head is really tell-tale and usually very dominant, but others have said that they have crosses that look like her). But the bad pasterns and the bad udder with the extra teat are known traits of some lines of Boers.

Don't despair! She could be a good milker for you for a couple of years, though the udder and legs may not hold up much longer than that. Try to find a really good buck to breed her to, and ditto for her daughters, and see if you can improve the offspring.

As for going camping when you have goats to milk, take them along! That's what I do, and we are glad to have the fresh milk, too! Once they are full-grown, they can even carry a light pack -- but, pack goats really ought to be bottle-raised. They need a strong bond to humans if you are going to take them out into the woods, or they may decide to become feral goats, rather than remaining with you. BLM and Forest Service personnel do not look kindly on pack goats that go feral.

Kathleen

So they will only develop that strong human bond if they are bottle-fed? (Going out and handling them several times a day and being around them isn't sufficient?)

You can make them friendly by handling them, but no, I don't think they will develop a strong bond with humans unless they think a human is their mother. It won't matter much if you aren't going out packing with them, for most purposes friendly is sufficient. But if you plan to take them into the woods, bonded is best, unless you are going to keep them all on lead ropes the whole time you are out. I like to let mine follow off-lead, though.

Kathleen

I have had dam raised kids turn out nice and friendly, and they tend to respect your space better. As long as you are spending time with them all, I don't think they need to be bottle fed. But then again, I have never packed with a goat either.
Those kids sure ar ecute, but too bad about the udder of the doe. I would say she is definetely half boer, looking at her build, legs, feet and udder. You just don't see that in any dairy breeds. (thick legs and blocky feet, weak attachments.) Looks like she may give a fair amount of milk though.
I would recommend reserving a doe or doe kid for the following year from a good dairy breeder. That is what a lot of folks around here do. You can put a deposite down on your choices, etc. Google up "duhgoatman" it is a great site that has breeder phone numbers and websites listed by breed and by state. good luck.

this one mentions great bloodlines: http://www.lynchsittybittyranch.com/

And another thing, just because a doe is boer does not mean she can't be a good milker. You just need to look for a goat with good attachments for a good milker.

Okay, the buckling definitely is looking like a Boer, but the doeling has more of a dished face, and her hair is longer and curly. And she has darker brown hair on her head with is in a "splotchy" design. What breed could she have gotten that sort of hair/color from? The seller says the sire is a pygmy dairy cross... and she says he has the horns and coloring of a Nubian (I cannot remember now exactly what he looks like! All I can remember is brown...)

jBlaze, if I find a breeder and put a deposit down for a doeling, what happens if the breeder does not have enough doelings in that year's crop? Is it just luck of the draw? (Someone on here recently posted that they got 8 bucklings and 1 doeling!)

different breeders do it different ways. Most dairy people I see will list their breeding schedule along with the prices for doe or buck kids. I think after your deposite you choose which breeding pair is your first choice, then second choice. I think that if your choices do not work out for whatever reason, I think that you either get your deposit back, make another choice or apply it to the next year. Prob every breeder does that a little different.
The pygora breeders around here, at least one of the big ones, takes deposites and keeps track of who is first on the list. When kidding is done, then the first on the list gets to pick out as many of the kids they want, then the next person on the deposit list gets to choose, and so forth. THat's a bit odd in my opinion, maybe because I was raised dairy.
Go through that web-link (duhgoatman) and just see what different breeders have for deposit lists / contracts. It is really fun to see what people in other states are doing, and you never know when a transportation option will work out. I have never done that, but maybe a breeder from another state just happens to be driving through 50 miles from you at whatever time, I've seen it happen, lol.

I think the doe in the background of pic#9 looks very much like my nubian doe. I think Boer is definitely there in the kids! They have that distinctive thick body and chunky face. Not to mention the "giveaway" colour.

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"The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese in the trap."

You really should have everything in writing before giving anyone money----personally, I would not put a deposit down on a kid that isn't even born yet; you could wait for years for a suitable kid. Make sure there is something that says the money is refundable if you don't see a kid that you like by X date. Make sure it states that it must be a kid that is acceptable to you. Otherwise, if he has a weak or conformationally poor goat, you may be legally responsible for taking it because it is "your" kid. Be sure you have an "out" if the kids born are poor condition, and you want your money back.

On the other hand, if you are paying a deposit on a goat kid you have already seen, and you liked it, don't expect to get your deposit back if you change your mind. That deposit is to pay him for his time spent turning down other potential buyers, if you decide to back out.

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"The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese in the trap."

The few breeders I've looked at in my area all want deposits on kids before they're born.

THose are definetly Boer cross kids.
That little "skin tag" on her udder is called a Spur (if it does not have an orafice)
Spurs are a common fault with boers but usually do not effect breeding or nursing kids.
Everyone looks beautiful and healthy