Bloody milk - sick doe - Help
 

I have a doe that kidded a year ago. Her boys have been weaned for ages, but she's still giving milk...and I never milk her. HOWEVER - I've seen the donkey lean down for a nip. I didn't think she was really getting any milk, but she must be, to keep the flow going. A few weeks ago I noticed a lump on one of the does teats - she's a terrible milker so I procrastinated with taking any measures. I had the teat tape and a strap to try to hoist her up when she was on the milk stand (she always just sits right down) - I was going to try to milk her out half way and tape her up - but I never got around to it.

Tonight she wouldn't come in from the pasture and she's obviously not herself. She's clearly in pain to walk and has slightly labored breathing. Her left teat is much larger than her right. Also looks like she's been eating all day (big belly). But I think those symptoms are minor. I was able to milk her and left teat which gave pretty bloody milk - this is my main concern. The udder was fairly hard but not really hot. I massaged her a bit with tea tree and lavender oil and applied warm, wet cloths on her udder. Haven't yet, but I will take her temperature in the morning. She's gone into a corner away from the rest of her herd.

I have a limited amount of meds on hand and would rather not use them unless it's necessary - would prefer natural solution to this. Can anyone help? Is this mastitis?

(And any ideas on how to keep that ass away from her teats would be much appreciated also.)

I hate seeing this gal in pain - she's had some tough times we've gotten through together and she's been a skittish goat from the start - don't want to mess up the progress we've made.

Please help with any advice - thank you.

Hmm. You've got quite a few problems going on all at once. The first thing I would do is completely separate the donkey from the goat. Is the donkey drinking milk from the goat, or actually biting her udder?

It sounds to me like she's battling mastitis. If so, you're going to have to intervene.

I'm not about to dispense advice about working with mastitis, as I have no experience with it. Can you do a "search" on this forum to find the threads dealing with mastitis? There have been many, with expert advice.

Good luck to you and your goat. Please let us know how it goes.

NeHi

You have a VERY sick goat. You need to get a vet out there to look at her, preferably one with goat experience.

At the very least, she has mastitis. She will need antibiotics. Someone with experience needs to prescribe the appropriate meds.

Looking full can mean bloat, not that she is eating.

She needs care several times a day.

Based on your history of noticing a problem and not taking action, I'd say she's probably going to die in pain. If that offends you, so be it. She's been suffering and you haven't done much.

Rose - you know nothing of which you speak - so you should keep your mouth shut. You don't know what I have done for this goat in the past and you don't know me. If you can't be of help, why come on to this forum and deliberately try to hurt someone or cause pain? You're an idiot. If that offends you, so be it.

Are you talking about a lot of blood in the milk, or the milk a little pink? Normally a little blood in the milk merely indicates that she has come into a lot of milk fast, and a blood vein has broken. Since she has not come into milk recently, my guess (and it is only a guess) would be that the donkey has injured her. Likely mastitis is also at play because of irregular milking. Did you milk out both sides? (I hope so.)

As Rose mentioned, that big look could be a sign of bloat, which I understand is a serious issue, but I have no experience with it.

I agree that this goat could use veterinary intervention. At the very least, if you cannot do that, I would suggest separating her from the herd (and especially the donkey) for a few days and babying her. I would milk her out at least once a day and treat her with TODAY if you intend to continue milking, which it doesn't sound like you do, or TOMORROW if you are drying her off.

I'd also go ahead and worm her and give her Pennicilin. I believe you are at risk of losing this goat without intervention.

mary

Name calling is not becoming. I didn't call you names.

I just read what you said about how you haven't taken much action after observing the ill health of your goat and stated the obvious.

You were indirectly name calling. As I said, if you can't be of help, why come onto this forum to deliberately be mean?

I did milk out both sides.

It's difficult to describe how much blood - the milk is dark pink. I do not see any external injury...perhaps you mean internal?

Can anyone tell me what the symptoms of bloat are and what the treatment is?

Thanks.

Mastitis causes internal damage to the milk producing structure. Your goat needs strong antibiotics.

Symptoms of bloat: not eating, distended belly

Here's a link with more detail:
http://kinne.net/bloat.htm

I sent you a PM.

I sure hope your goat gets better.

Somebody's been getting milk, or she would have dried up long ago.


You noticed trouble weeks ago??? and did nothing? If she's such a terrible milker, maybe you should sell her.


This could be anything from the donkey stopped nursing and her udder is overly full to mastitis. Is her udder balanced, or is one side usually larger than the other?

Sounds like bloat... NOT a "minor" thing!


Let me get this straight... you noticed problems weeks ago... and did nothing. Then, you noticed she was in pain, partially milked her, massaged and warm cloths (which will stimulate milk production btw)... THEN, you see her away from her herd, in a corner, and you don't think you should take her temp now? :confused:

Without pictures and a mastitis test, it's hard to tell. To me, it sounds like your window of healing naturally has passed weeks ago. Time to call a vet.

Seperate the ass from the milk goats.

My opinion... if you hate to see her in pain, you should have acted on the first symptoms. Even now, that you see her in pain, you choose not to even take her temp. You are sending mixed signals here.

You're welcome.

If this is DARK pink milk, look for it to turn dark red within 24 hours. If it does, it is probably gangrene mastitis. But don't wait for 24 hours to find out. She should have 1 cc of penicillin per 20 pounds of weight, twice a day for 10 days. This keeps the infection from spreading to her body, it will not save the udder.

We had a case of this 2 years ago with a goat we were trying to dry up. The milk was pink one day and red 24 hours later. Our goat showed no signs of being off until the milk was pink.

Our vet also prescribed Biomycin (LA200) at the same time, every other day for 5 days (I know, you're not suppose to do both at the same time, but I did what he said, and the goat recovered fine but lost half her udder), and Banamine for 3 days. I used the paste form of the Banamine.

Look folks - I came here for medical advice, not to be chastised. I take good care of my animals. To those of you who are criticizing me, I ask you, have you never made a poor choice or bad decision? Have you never lost an animal to an illness? This is extremely disconcerting to be raked over the coals when I know I give my animals good care. I didn't even want a pregnant goat - she was sold to me that way. Bred to her father and skittish. I've done a lot to help her along and I don't appreciate the digs I am getting here.

Can we just stick to the medical issues instead of berating me?

AGAIN - there was NOTHING wrong with this goat until last night. She was absolutely fine except for a small lump on her teat that was not bothering her IN THE LEAST!

Regarding: Bloat. This is caused by over-eating grain, correct? She gets a mere 1 1/2 cups a day of sweet feed, grass hay, forage, free-choice minerals and baking soda.

I milked her again this morning and there was a small stringy white clump followed by what appears to be watery blood. No milk now. Her temperature is 101 - not high. She is groaning with each breath (similar to how the Nubians groan when they are comfortably sleeping - THIS IS AN EXAMPLE - please don't latch onto that).

I have called the vet.

If you have any suggestions that are proactive rather that destructive, please let me know.

I want to make sure that I was clear as my original post has obviously confused some people. There was nothing wrong with this goat except for a small lump that was not bothering her. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE WAS WRONG. What I procrastinated about was taking measures to dry her up - nothing else - because there WAS nothing else to address. ONLY drying her up.

I obviously assumed that the lump was a small injury and nothing to worry about since there were NO other symptoms. This was a reasonable assumption.

I'm sorry if my post confused anyone. I hope this is clear now

I would give her some yogurt or probios just in case her gut is not functioning well. Bloat is not just from eating grain. There are other causes.

If you could get her temp that would help a lot too.

Can you give her a B vitamin shot? If so I would.

I think you are looking at giving her a course on antibiotics and I would start ASAP.

If you are near my area pm me please.

Nevermind

valsey,

Sadly, it is hard to ask questions without a few wanting to slam and not really help out. My suggestion is to ignore the mean remarks, and look for the advice. Take what you can use and leave the rest. It's easy to get offended, I know, but you are the only one hurt by taking offense. So try to leave it.

I am also concerned that the milk is dark pink. I have not seen that, so I can't help except to say that I would consider it serious. Pennicilin runs about $10 a bottle around here at the feed stores. I would suggest a serious course of it as a minimum, along with separating her for a few days.

mary

I would start an antibiotic instantly.

I can't guess what is wrong, and I do not use antibiotics lightly, but I would start one.

One time I had a doe get an e coli infection in one side of her udder and it sounds similar to this. Good luck with your doe and you too!

From:http://kinne.net/bloat.htm

(includes types, symptoms, and treatment)

Frothy Bloat
Frothy bloat is usually caused by overeating lush, damp feeds such as clover, alfalfa or legume pastures. Green feed that has grown warm in the stack can also create problems. Foam forms in the rumen with tiny bubbles that are impossible for a goat to belch up. Foam is more dangerous than dry bloat. The rumen expands with foam and the goat can die pretty quickly from respiratory or circulatory failure due to excessive pressure on the diaphragm.


Dry or Free Gas Bloat
Dry bloat is usually caused by indigestion from any underlying cause or eating too much grain. In this type of bloat, gas forms in pockets and is trapped in the upper portions of the rumen. When more and more gas is formed and the animal is unable to belch, it becomes bloated.


Choke

Bloat can also occur if something lodges in the throat or esophagus and blocks the means of belching. Sometimes it is possible for a goat to swallow something large enough to block the inside end of the esophagus.


Symptoms

In any type of bloat, the goat’s left flank will bulge, and it sounds like a kettle drum if tapped. Symptoms of bloat include signs of pain, such as grinding teeth, depression, or striking out with their legs. In an advanced case, the goat may already be down due to respiratory failure or other complications.

If the animal is not in an emergency state, the first step in treatment is to immediately remove the goat from the feed, if that was the cause. Do not give water to a goat who has ingested large quantities of grain, because water will add to the fermentation rate and cause the grain to expand. Wait maybe 12 hours before you give water - after the goat has eaten roughage to help stimulate the rumen.


Treatment

Stomach tubing is an emergency procedure and a good option for treating dry bloat. Oral bloat medications are also a good treatment option.

Tubing will not help with frothy bloat, as it does not eliminate froth that initially caused the problem. To treat frothy bloat, you need to introduce a product to break down the froth into a solid pocket of gas that the goat can belch out. The old remedy of drenching with oils does not rid the stomach of its contents or help dissipate the gas very well. Oil simply coats things so that pretty soon you just have layers of stuff - grain, water, oil and gas.

If you have a goat full of grain, I suggest giving Milk of Magnesia. This helps stimulate the gut and lower the pH balance of the rumen be more alkaline. DiGel or powdered Tide laundry detergent (one tablespoon of Tide powder mixed with maybe 60 cc of water) will eliminate the froth and allow the goat to belch. Then put the goat on dry, coarse hay to stimulate the rumen to contract. After giving the medication it helps to firmly massage the rumen to help mix the treatment with the rumen contents. Walking the goat may also aid in mixing the medication. After walking for a while, stand the goat "uphill," by elevating its front end to allow the expulsion of gas through belching.

Some veterinarians keep simethecone preparations that are very effective in dissipating froth but Milk of Magnesia, DiGel or powdered Tide work just fine. A product called Therabloat can be given orally or directly through injection into the rumen and is very effective in dissipating frothy bloat (3 cc mixed with about 30 cc water and shake well). A handful of bicarbonate of soda can also help disperse the gas.


How To Stomach Tube

When tubing your goat (illustrations B & C), be sure to use a stomach tube or other appropriate equipment. A 1/4-inch to 3/8-inch diameter and 3-foot to 4-foot long piece of plastic hose rounded off at the end will work. Do not use a garden hose - it is too large and can split the esophagus and kill your goat.

The tube must be long enough to reach from the mouth to the distended flank, with some room to spare. A speculum is also needed so the goat will not bite and sever the tube. A piece of wood with a hole in it, a piece of 1" hard plastic pipe, or a "sheep harp" (a special mouth gag for sheep and goats) can be used. It helps to have two people for restraint and to keep the speculum in the mouth. Measure the length between the mouth and the middle of the abdomen and use a permanent marker to mark how far to put the tube in.

Insert and hold the speculum in the mouth so that the goat can't chew the tube or your fingers. Pass the stomach tube through the speculum and gently pass it into the back of the throat. The animal will usually swallow it voluntarily. Now gently push the tube down the esophagus, while blowing on your end to inflate the esophagus and make the tube passage easier. If you have a foreign body lodged, the tube will usually push it into the rumen. Most foreign bodies lodge at the base of the neck, so you will have to push it from there all the way back to the stomach.

When you reach the stomach opening, resistance on the tube is reduced and, if you're lucky, a large volume of gas will rush out. If not, don't despair, simply move the tube back and forth and around until you find the gas pocket. Once the deflation process is done, pinch the tube and remove it in one smooth, complete motion.



If these measures fail and the goat is in an emergency state (very labored breathing or down from the internal pressure), a well placed puncture into the rumen through the highest part of the inflated flank is necessary. A 1 1/2-inch 16-gauge needle works very well. The hole can leak fluids into the peritoneum and cause peritonitis. A pocketknife can be used in an extreme emergency, but the wound will need immediate surgical repair.

To "stick" a goat, do it at the highest point of the bloat on the left side, midway between the last rib and the hip). Jab the 16-gauge needle all the way in and hold it there while the gas escapes. (See illustration D.) This procedure is best done by a veterinarian but in emergency cases, time is important. The animal has only minutes to live once it goes down!


Preventing Bloat

Feed dry hay before letting goats out on high-moisture grass or clover. Even then, watch for signs of bloat. Don't let your goats eat too much young green fodder or clover in a short period of time. If you want your goats to graze on young, wet pasture, fill them up with dry hay first and introduce the new pasture slowly for short periods

Don't treat your goats to large amounts of succulent feeds (green corn stalks, etc.) They aren’t used to. Stored green feed such as alfalfa should not be allowed to get warm.

Indigestion, instead of bloat, can come from eating too much grain or greens. The goat may become colicky and depressed, stamping its hind feet, grunting, and bitingat or nosing its sides. Some lie down and act generally sick. Diarrhea usually follows. In most of these cases, 1/4 cup of Pepto Bismol will clear up the problem.

Kids may bloat if milk curd gets into the rumen, usually as a result of improper colostrum or milk tubing. The curd ferments and the stomach fills with gas. Treatment for kids is 1 or 2 teaspoons of Pepto Bismol.

Prevention is the best medicine for bloat. Keep a watchful eye on your goats if they are at risk, and be prepared to deal with the symptoms.

Hey I PM u ..

I have spoken with the vet and his recommendation is to give her Nuflor, not penicillin. Not LA 200. Not Biomycin. Does anybody know of any reason this could be incorrect? If not,That's what I'm going to do. In addition, I got some Tomorrow from a goat woman nearby and will start that as soon as I get back from the vets. She said I should treat both teats with that, but I don't understand why I would if only one seems to be infected. Any thoughts?

ALso - does anyone know where I can get a CMT kit?

My guess would be that if the infection is bad, it could go systemic rather than be isolated in one half of the udder.

However, if the milk from the unaffected side looks normal, I agree with you. :) I'd be hesitant to stick something up there.

A very few feed stores have the CMT kit.

Caprine Supply has them. http://www.caprinesupply.com/

Item number 580 Cost $17.65 in my catalog from last year.

THANKS - going to get Nuflor now. Vet might not be out for quite a while.

I gave her about 8 or 9 cc of Nuflor. She weighs about 145-150 lbs. I gave it IM. Should I ask him for a second dose?

The udder temp is cooler than the udder that is not infected. I was worried that this was a sign of gangrene mastitis. Perhaps this is not mastitis at all.

I was told to use the Tomorrow the same way you said to use the Today (milk the doe out first, instill the infusion massage it up into the udder. Next milking you milk the doe out removing the bacteria and instill another dose.) Should I get some Today instead?

I just can't help but think this is something else, like an injury. Each time I milk her there is a smaller amount of blood. It's still only blood, not milk, but there is less of it. There is no temperature. The udder is not hot. It is painful and swollen, but it's not hard. It feels like fat (like on my stomach). The other things is her appetite seems to be coming back.

It's all very odd.

Might want to read up on saanendoah.com about malignant edema.

You will need to do a round of antibiotics not just one shot, the udder will cool more, turn blue and slough off, leaving only healthy tissue behind. You need to vaccinate from now on with covexin 8 which carries the clostridium in it for gas gangreen. Also think about herd wide vaccination for staph aureous with Lysigin found in jefferspet.com use the whole 5cc subq, repeat in 21 days...for a doe to have malignant edema she must have had staph aureous in her udder first. One brings on the other. With it being so highly contagious it is likely others in the herd have this subclinical especially any daughters who nursed her.

Without a series of antibiotics it can still go systemic and kill her. Sounds as if you are doing a good job...warning really read the article, might want to follow the protocoal she used since the doe lived, alot do not. Vicki

Hi - thanks for your post. Can you tell what you did for the e coli infection? Which antibiotic?

Did she have a temp and was the udder hot/warm? I guess I'm trying to figure out what the similarities were.

Thanks

many years ago, do not remember the antibiotic, the vet diagnosed the e coli without culturing, said she had never seen e coli before, she was just remembering pictures from college of what was coming out of the udder. It was a dark, clearish drainage, nothing milk like about it. Vet said doe had just layed in the wrong place at the wrong time and the e coli entered the teat. Vet said she would not live. She did, but would have been better if she had not. Don't remember if doe had a temp, but the udder was not hot. First we pulled the doe through the crisis, then the udder half started to die and slough off, took many weeks. It was gross, watching the dead half flap around until the udder had healed underneath. We had udder problems the next year and ended up putting her down.

The similarities are the material coming out of the udder, not milk like.

Thanks for your post, Vicki. I'm very worried that this is exactly what she has. I don't really see what the specific recommendations are though. She simply says, "Despite the lack of positive findings I started her on systemic oxytetracycline that evening".

Can anyone tell me - if I gave the goat Nuflor yesterday, when is it safe to start her on some new antibiotics? What is the recommendation - Penicillin or an oxytetracycline? And dosage? Should I continue to infuse the teat with Tomorrow?

Thank you

Thank you for your post. This is dreadful, and yes - very similar. I wonder if it would be better to remove the teat and be done with it.

I'm sorry people were being a bit rough. I hope your goat starts doing better! I haven't gone through this yet really. Yesterday I noticed my doe acting like it hurt to be milked she had a lump that had dissapeared. So I am just listening in to see if she might have mastis. If I notice her still in pain tomorrow I am treating her for mastis. Her udders weren't even hot just like in your situation. Let us know if you find anything new out!

If you have started Nuflor then please stay with it, it is no different then if you are on one and you change in the middle, she will build up a resistance to it.
I do agree with you I do not do any meds unless I HAVE to and I do agree this is a HAS to case,.

I would bet that the donkey bit her, I would not believe he did it on purpose but the did it anyway and did some good damage.

Do you know if she did have bloat or was she just fa? If you are not sure I would also give her some baking soda balls just in case. I would hate to see you get the mastites cleaned up just to lose her (maybe) to bloat.

Good Luck and please keep us posted on her progress. I am pulling for you and her.

Thanks. I'm almost certain this is an injury or mastitis. Not Milk Fever and not bloat. Most likely Gangrene Mastitis...

She looks like she's losing weight now - not eating much at all. Today she seemed to want to go outside, so that must mean she's feeling a little bit better.

I hesitate to stay with the Nuflor - for one, it's extremely expensive ($45 per shot) and two, prescription only so I would need to deal with the vet. And by that I mean, his schedule and lack of availability.

I'll go get LA200 and penicillin just in case. I have given her some probios and she's eating a bit of her minerals and baking soda.

She's my favorite doe - I hate to see her going through this...and I'm afraid she still has an uphill battle.

Just wanted to say thank you to all of you who have posted or sent me a PM apologizing for some of the forum members who haven't been so kind. It's important to have support when you are going through difficult times and I appreciate it.

My vet will sell me prefilled syringes of antibiotics. Yours may too.

Yes I would use the oxytetracycline right now and continue for about 10 days or 24 hours after she is 100%. Any 200 mg tetracycline (and with shots continuing for so long don't use LA200, pick biomycin or any other one with a non sting carrier....is give at 3.5cc per 100 pounds and is given every 24 hours. You could do a loading dose with her with the severity of what this likely is by giving her a series of 3 shots 12 hours apart. This is given subq, so right behind the ribs pull the skin out, switch sides each day. Do not give it too close to the front leg because eventually she will get tender and it will interfere with her walking and getting up and down.

Do the infusions as long as you can but honestly you are putting infusion into what will be dead tissue. How cold is the udder now? Any blueness at all?

We dont use infusions on their own and even in milk we don't use Today. Tommorrow has more drug and is oil based so it stays in the tissue longer. We add 2cc of 100mg gentamycin to it, just squirt out some of the infusion and add the 2cc. Gentamycin and pennicillin for staph works wonderful as does gentamycin with tetracycline for acute mastitis like this.

Lots of fluis, when you go pick up the gent pick up some lactated ringers, if she stops drinking water, and entice her anyway you can...put big hand sized bubbles of ringers under the skin to hydrate her. IF she becomes dehyrated she will die.

Also tetracycline will profilactically take care of pnemonia that comes to a down doe. We also use oral sulfa's on sick animals here to keep cocci at bay, if you are in the south you may also want to do this.

Good luck with the doe.

In a perfect world you would have sent off some of the milk for a culture and sensitivity...so now we guess, and hope we guess correctly. Vicki

Yes, and I bet if she had come on here earlier and asked how to dry up her goat she would have been told to NOT express any milk, because a novice simply cannot teat dip properly, and it would introduce bacteria. Sometimes ya just can't win for losin' :)

Sorry don't know what you mean to respond Nancy....I will admit I only ran through most of the other posters messages. I do think the donkey did damage to the doe, which let the staph in that caused all this to happen. Sure earlier intervention would have stopped this, but sometimes lessons learned like this stay with the person longer than hearing folks tell them. I just didn't want her ran off or the goat dieing from the dosages given, so we can hear if the udder sloughs, with the tetracycline and once the sloughing starts packing it with sugar as much as she can, the doe has a really good chance of living through this. Vicki

Perhaps what Nancy means is that no matter what you do, or do NOT do, the outcome is ALWAYS unpredictable.

For instance: you can't seem to dry up a doe...the folks on the forum say "don't milk her whatever you do"...the doe developes mastitis...had you milked the doe against everyone's suggestion, you may have discovered the mastitis sooner and avoided the mastitis. Can't win for losin'.

I had a goat with an injury to her teat. Her milk ran dark pink for a couple of days. She also had a lump or two, but they turned out to be clots. Eventually she started giving good milk, although not a lot of it.
Good luck. Hope it is just an infected injury, and not anything more serious.