A new offer! And more questions! (pics)
 

Ok! I found two more does. This time they are both in milk which is fantastic. Both kids are just weaned, and he's willing to milk them for me until I get back from FL. Their utters aren't looking very milky, but I feel like I could get them to bag back up.
Here's the first, her name is Princess
http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...tie/Mother.jpg

And her daughter Sweet Sunrise

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...ie/Sweetie.jpg

Both are registered and he's willing to seel them both for me for $200 apiece.
Princess throws triplets and is 5 years old, Sweet Sunrise just had her first kid and only had one. Princess' first kidding was only one as well, so I guess she could throw trips from now on too. They won Grand Champion in the mother, daughter competition at the 4H fair last summer.
They are both great mothers and Princess stays in milk for two months after weaning without any milking at all. After nursing trips that seems like a lot of milk to me.
They have never tested their herds. This is a big issue for me because I know NOTHING about the commong goat diseases. I've read about them in Storey's Guide, but it says nothing about how it affects milk. It makes me nervous to think of drinking milk from an animal with a disease like that, but I don't know if it's a problem. I'd love it if he would have them tested before selling them to me, but I don't know how to go about having that done, or asking for it or anything. My first thought is to ask if he'll do it and offer to pay for it if they test negative.

I don't know what to do.


ETA: Both have had all the necessary shots and are being wormed for a second time before I would pick them up.

Here's a rear shot of Sweetie with her new kid:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...etieandkid.jpg

"They are both great mothers and Princess stays in milk for two months after weaning without any milking at all. After nursing trips that seems like a lot of milk to me."

Please have him translate this statement. What does he mean by this? The udder needs a regular schedule of milking stimulation in order to stay in milk. If if not the goat dries up. If he stops milking a producing goat, then you have old milk sitting in the udder, potentially brewing a nice mix a nasty bacteria for you.

Go back and talk to him about getting blood tests done. Does he have a vet? can you find a vet? Biotracking is one lab that does blood testing and so is WSU. You can learn more about testing by checking these sites out. It is a good sign if he is open to testing, talk frankly about it ect. If he gives you trouble, attitude or says he changed his mind then forget it.

If a buyer requests it then the buyer pays and also offer a deposit for the animals to hold them.

They look nice, although I hope you tried milking them out.

He told me about their mothering and it is what I would consider good mothering. He's going to be milking them out for the next two weeks until I can come and get them. He's very open about the situation and said his in-laws have another doe in milk we could consider if they can't get either doe to bag back up.
We talked with a vet who is knowledgable about goats and he said that we don't need to worry about a transfer of diseases through the milk because diseases in goats aren't communicable to humans. We still want to have them tested, but we may do it ourselves after we buy them.
Is this what everyone else has learned? Is the vet correct? We'll be drinking the milk raw, so I want to be certain.

I see a lot of people are comming to look, but I only have one reply so far. Any information at all is helpful!!

We are talking about CAE and CL diseases transmitted from mom to daughter. Make sure you milk the goats also, him keeping them in milk may mean they are giving a cup or two a day, and small does like this are notorious for mini teats...it's why they nurse kids. So if milk isn't a biggy for you and you are just going to let them nurse kids and raise pets that fine. But him giving you registration papers and they are being shown for $200? He could get alot more for these goats, so why the red flags from me and obviously others who have posted. CAE is a $7 test, just have him pull blood. It's common to have this test done like this, he tests if they are negative than you pay for the test plus the cost of having blood drawn...if they are positive you pass on the purchase. Positive and they are worth about 2 cents. Vicki

Registered what?

Are those supposed to be Nigerians? If so, they look a bit big. If they're supposed to be Alpines, they're a bit short. In either case, the conformation is a bit questionable -- when you're milking a tiny doe, it really helps to have a nice udder. If the teats are set really far back, between the doe's back legs, it's really hard to milk because you can't see what you're doing.

-- Leva

Now that I have tested goats, I wouldn't buy anything that hasn't been tested.

Why risk it?

Thanks Leva, so many you don't know if all they want is a real answer, or a "Oh they are pretty, congrats". Vicki

You're in Indiana - chances are you're around a good breeder of excellent produciton/show stock that is tested. I looked up the Indiana dairy goat association, it doesn't seem to be that they have a breeder's list available... However, check out: MDGS.org if you're close to MI, or check out ODGA.org if you're close to Ohio - both of which have breeders listings.

Neither of the does above, I'm guessing Nigies - are all that astounding, imo. I doubt they'll be able to get their production up to anything worthwhile after nursing kids till weaning AND then bagging up, not to mention with the not-immense nigie production as it is - I wouldn't ever milk a nigie unless I pulled kids at birth, because IMO it isn't worth it to me - but then again I'm used to getting a gallon per day from a SINGLE doe, lol.

DO NOT buy the animals and then test them. You bring CL to your property and it's infected for 10 years - can't keep goats there anymore! Plus, it's zoonotic - meaning you, your family, and any other animals that go to the area where the animals were could get it. Also, abscesses can show up internally and the bacterium can be secreted in milk, pooed out, or coughed up - so it can come to your farm unbeknown to you. As it is, I would build an iso pen outside of your planned pen - even if the does came bag neg. for first test, I'd isolate and watch them for a few months, retest, then put them in the main pen if they stay neg.
CAE isn't as big a deal as CL, but it is still a communicable disease that can ruin your reputation and has to be delt with in a very specific way. It's quite a hassle and you just simply do not want it in your herd, though people can still use the milk.

*shrug* I figure if people don't want an opinion, they shouldn't post. ;-)

I should post some pictures of my girls and my buck -- my buck's 100% Apache Valley. They're pet quality, but "usable" as dairy animals -- I wouldn't breed a goat I couldn't milk, no point to it. Having a nice udder makes life SO much easier, particularly on the little guys!

(I have not tested for CL/CAE in my herd, though I'd be surprised if I came up positive. I've never had any symptoms. However, since I do NOT keep a closed herd -- I have pack goats that are regularly exposed to deer/elk/other goats/bighorn sheep -- I'm also concerned about bringing home disease, and making the testing pointless. I just boil all my milk and fully disclose I don't test. I'd put down anything that was symptomatic.)

-- Leva

I breed Nigerians, and the price alone raises flags for me. It is very hard to find quality does at that prices, at least with Nigerians. They don't look to great either (conformationally). Udders, I doubt they are very good. So many people are turned off by this breed, because they purchase poor quality animals (a lot of Nigie breeders are pet breeders and people buy animals from them wanting to show)...Invest your money in a good quality doe, and you won't be disappointed. GCH at 4h isn't very spectacular either. And no way would I purchase them without testing them.

Are you just looking for milk? Because, although I love the Nigies, it would be better for you to go standard. Just IMO..

$200 is a HIGH price for a doe in milk....depending on where you live in the country. In the south, where many breeders are in it solely for the money/business end of things, prices are higher. But in most parts of the country, they are much more reasonable since the breeders are more concerned about the new owners of the goats than money.

I would NEVER get a goat without having all the facts first. Even if they were FREE, don't ever take them to your farm without knowing about CAE/CL, have some type of medical background of the goat, SEE them in a picture or in person, and know that the owner is reputable. And just because a goat tests positive does not make it worthless. Each goat's value is determined by the owner - and some of us would love our goats regardless of a test.

This seller seems to be very cooperative. Great! If he was not and refused you medical history or pictures, I would pass. As is, get the tests, milk the goat, and you should be able to determine the rest on your own. You have the right to make your own choices - and it seems you've done a great job so far!

Let us know how it goes.

So very true! Thanks for the reminder that ALL opinions should be posted....not just those who think they know it all about goats. I mean, does ANYONE know it all? :confused:

If you look around on websites from around the country, you would see that for the most part, $200 is a pet price on a ND doe. Here in the midwest, most kids start at $350, quality does in milk are much higher.
Claiming that that those charging more are "in it for the money" is deceptive. I don't know about you, but most people need to see some return on all the money that is sunk into maintaining these little buggers and has nothing to do with a lack of concern for the new owners.
I've found that "backyard" breeders who are producing pet quality tend to charge less (maybe in the hopes of enticing newbies?).

So very true! Thanks for the reminder that ALL opinions should be posted....not just those who think they know it all about goats. I mean, does ANYONE know it all?
..............

No, but I do know enough to help a newbie not get taken to the cleaners if you would care to listen. The goats are not of ND size and is why they are being sold. Anyone can register and show juniors, yearlings and then yearling milkers, but let them get up to 2 or 3 and alot are higher than the marking stick at the show and then are sold with their papers to new people. Ethically they should be culled from the herd book so they don't add more heigth with their kids into the purebred book. If someone doesn't know the status of their goats CAE and CL then ask them to test for you and pay for the tests if they come back negative. Go milk the goats. Even standard goats can have little bitty teats that nobody wants to hand milk, obviously in mini's this trait is common. Alot of mama raised goats have horrid milkstand manners, imagine something that small stomping on your hand while you try to milk it, it will still hurt. IF you have read this forum and others for any length of time you will know that the first time newbies tests their herd, they have positive animals, usually because of symptoms of CAE hard udders, swollen knees, chronic cough or pnemonia.....or CL abscess after the move.

It's why we answer this question the way we do, not how cute are they! But get real, winners of a speciality dam and daughter class, hairy, too tall (OK if this person in the photo holding them simply has freakishly short legs :) and poor basic conformation, let alone nobody with a CH would allow a photo of their goat looking like that!

200$ is a good price for a grade doe in milk, but think of it this way he is selling these does for less than their feed bill for one year. Think of it in another way, a good nubian milker would make this sale price back to you in saleable milk in 1 and 1/2 months. One buckling would sell for more out of her than this. It's about the money because my goats pay their own way. Vicki

A $200 Nubian doe is no different than a $200 ND doe. Some are worth more, some are worth less....

Also, I don't know anything about milk sales in TX or wherever the OP lives, but I do know it's not really an option in KY. Not without much research, investment and some really good contracts. So be careful what you are advising newbies to jump into in regards to recovering their investment. You could be jumping their neck right through a legal noose.


I thought that the person in the photo is probably young. Looks that way to me. I don't think anyone can look at a photo of a goat they aren't familiar with, taken in front of a person they don't know and ASSUME the goat is overheight. I have some does pushing the height limit here. My best milkers in fact and it doesn't make them worth a dime less because of it. Taller than a pygmy and over the ND height limit are two different things entirely. The OP also mentioned earlier that she is looking for nigerians or mini manchas ONLY. Probably because she has done a little research and finds these breeds better suited to her situation than a nubian. Why keep at her about finding a bigger goat?

I wish the OP the best of luck in finding her goat(s). NDs are not perfect for everybody but neither is any one breed perfect for everyone.

I'd say it's standard for Indiana right now.

It's not here either--raw milk sales are illegal in Indiana (not that people don't get around it, but you have to do it underground). IIRC the OP needs milk for a dairy sensitive child and is raising goats in town, making the smaller size a necessity.

For her specific needs, I'd say that these goats are probably a good investment. :) As long as her little kiddo is able to drink milk with his breakfast without being sick, who cares if the doe is a little tall for a ND?

Thanks so much to all who replied to my post. I apologize for the delay but I was on vacation without interenet access.

I have been looking quite a bit for a doe and have looked at doelings, yearlings and does in milk. $200 is what I am finding accross the board. So, I'm ok with the price.

The girl holding the does is a child. I should have mentioned that, I guess. The first doe is JUST over the showing height. He was upfront with me about that, and I don't mind since we're not showing. I'll also look for a shorter buck to breed her with to even it out for future sales.

We've been talking with a very reputable vet who is knowledgable about goats and doing a lot of our own reasearch about goat diseases and have the tests done. It wont be a big issue, but I'd rather know. Even if they test positive we're in such a tight bind we will likely have to get them anyway.
That is if they were able to get them to bag back up. I have a call in to him to get an update. He hasn't called back yet, so cross your fingers!

Thanks again to everyone who shared their opinion, you are an invaluable resource!

Even if they test positive we're in such a tight bind we will likely have to get them anyway.
..........................

That's a shame. Vicki

Isn't it? It's been a very frustrating experience. We've only had 3 does to choose from after a month long extensive state-wide search.
We are in dire need of goats milk at a price of less than $16 a gallon. We're drinking 2 gallons a week right now because of my son's allergy and there is NO milk to be found around here! I'm even driving an extra 30 minutes to get the milk for $16 a gallon!
So, here we are...

Where in Indiana are you??

You can sell raw milk for pet use only in Indiana.

I pm'd you, I have two different Breeds you could check out and 5-6 different girls you could look and Milk and chose from. Because I have to cut a few girls out from my herd to make way for the new girls I'm planning on keeping : )

If I were you I'd take a deep breath and think about this awhile. If they are possitive it may be fine now but, later they could start to show symptoms and get sick. They could have sick kids. i know you need the milk but do you need the heart break this could bring to your family. If what you really want is nigies then great but don't settle for any thing because you need the milk.
Could you find a goat thats not all that you want but is healthy for milk to tide you over untill you find a nigie that fits the bill.
I think you need to prioritize you needs better. It seems you need the milk 1st
Health should be of great concern if you will be feeding you family with this milk.

We are in central IN. I have contacted some local people and in fact, the local dairy goat association and no one who sells or gives away raw milk for pet consumption felt their milk was safe for human consumption. I'm glad they were upfront with me about it.



Thank you for your conscern, but this is not an overnight decision we have made. We have been considering options for the last 7 months and after an extensive and exhausting search for goats milk at a less expensive price we are left with only the option of getting our own goats. We are not the type of people who think of farm animals as pets. We grew up with farm animals and I have personally taken part in the dispatching and butchering of countless animals. Because of this when it comes to us and farm animals it's strictly business. So, unless they are so diseased they die before we get our first kids out of them there will be no heartbreak on our parts.
As for heath conscerns I am buying milk from unknown animals right now. The state it's produced in does not require negative tests for CL or CAE. I don't see how that's any different from drinking pasteurized milk from my own animals who may or may not be positive.

kristie the point, everybody that answered your post, is the concern to willingly buy cae and/or cl positive animals. i plain do not believe that you can not find healthy animals closer to you. if you are in for the milk, why do you want to buy nigerians? if show is not your intention, why not buy cross breed animals that are at least healthy?
if you still want to stick with the two does, at least make sure they are tested bevore you get them and are healthy. believe me, from my own experience, this will save you from a lot of heartbreaking decisions you might have to do later.

Kristie talk to Sherrie, even if you don't buy from her she could mentor you, being in your own state. She has excellent quality bloodlines. Vicki

This all makes no sense! If it's just business why care if their nigies? Not the best choise for a milk supply. I find it hard to believe their are no healthy goats in milk for sale in your whole state!
Pets or not how does it make good "business sense" to pay so much for something that could be sick? In your 7mth search you could have bought a doe and bred her by now W/ kids on the ground and milk.
by the way a doe who is not healthy won't give much milk so you"ll be feeding her for nothing.
If you ask us our opion you will get it, you may not like it, but you asked:rolleyes:

We HAVE to have a miniature breed. It is not resonable for us to have a standard breed, THE END.
We have not been searching for DOES for 7 months, we've been searching for MILK for 7 months. We have been searching for does for close to 2 months now. We have only found these two does, plus a doe that I posted about previously and decided not to get.
Our first choise was a mini mancha, but they were nowhere to be found. I have contacted MANY people in search of does (of any nigie-cross breed) including the NDGA head here in IN, the STATE 4H goat leader and have searched countless hours online etc.. In all that time I have found 3 does. I know that sounds crazy, I thought it was too.

Really what it boils down to for us is a need. After talking with the lady in Michigan who is in charge of dairy testing and discovering that there is no way of knowing if the milk we are drinking right now is from CL or CAE positive animals I see no difference.

Buying CL/CAE positive animals or not caring about status is simply irresponsible in my opinion. I just butchered two of my favorite does a few months ago because of an unethical breeder selling me a CAE positive. Two of my best, closest, most loved ladies I had to watch get shot, cut open their throat, then butcher from beginning to end simply because of a breeder that doesn't think CAE or Johne's are problems. The previous owner simply did not care, even though I explained to him my negative status. CAE positive animals need to be milked separately, housed/raised separately from your negative herd. Their milk can only be used for human or other animal consumption and never fed to baby goats. All kids need to be pulled at birth, which makes being there for labor MANDATORY (I mist 4 days of school this year just from being at kiddings and from exhaustion) Thankfully my two positive ladies gave me three gorgeous doe kids which will continue their lines, but they're being raised on strict prevention, are in isolation, and will be tested when they reach 6 months and then a few months later before they can even be introduced to my herd... I'm anxious for and dread the results at the same time - hoping for negatives. CAE isn't a death warrant IMO, I simply do not have time/money to run two herds (plus I find it unethical to possibly propogate diseased animals with the general 10% inauterine infection rate). It was a difficult decision but one I thought was most responsible to myself, my herd and animals as well as the entire industry.

CL is zoonotic - meaning people and other animals can get it from an infected individual. And yes, abscesses can burst within the udder and you can actually be ingesting the bacterium that causes CL - makes testing completely worthwhile IMO. It also lives in your soil for up to 10 years and is extremely contagious. Even better, it is a chronic wasting disease that slowly degenerates your goats' general health, production, and fertility. It is known as the herd ruiner.

Personally, I will do all I can to prevent the spread of the diseases. And I find it rather impossible that you cannot find at least breeder that tests willing to sell you a little extra milk on the side for your own consumption until you find your own ladies - or even let you lease a doe. I sell mine as human quality but for animal consumption - what people do with it after I sell it to them is up to them, IMO.

I can halfway understand buying a CAE positive doe, but you do NOT want a CL positive animal on your property, period. It can last in the soil for years. No one will want to buy from you, and people CAN get CL, along with other animals. Plus a blood test for CL is NOT conclusive, you can get a false negative. So you want to buy from a reputable herd that has no history of abcesses.