Could we discuss American Nubians vs. Nubians?

You are AWESOME Ira!

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Sarah Patterson
M & L Farm
Lamanchas, lamancha cross, Sable and Sable cross

You can also find us on facebook! M&L Farm

http://www.mandllamanchas.com *UPDATED*

You can have an animal papered up the ying yang and back to the garden of Eden, but unless they can perform the job they were bred to do, IT IS WORTHLESS!! And let's remember the term, HYBRID VIGOR!! Many of the "grade" individuals tend to outperform their "purebred, papered" counterparts. And this is coming from a seedstock producer!!
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It sounds really good, makes you want to stand up and wave a flag or something...but in reality their counterparts sell for about 5 times the amount of their grade sisters, everything being equal. Makes also very little difference in pets, but they are livestock, a registered purebred livestock always outsells the unregistered the American or the grade. Hybrid vigor is only seen in the first cross as we know. So from a business standpoint starting with healthy purebred stock is simply wise. Even in meat goats, it adds one more selling niche to your business.

Makes little sense to do the same work on a grade doe, trim the same feet, feed her the same, get the same amount of milk and then sell her kids for soo much less, and her bucklings rarely sell...shoot try to sell an American Nubian buckling sometime It's not political it's the facts. Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

Vicki,
I agree with you, especially on the buckling thing. Carla our Tog Lamancha is registered Experimental and her kids if they were bucks would sell for $50.00 bucks at most as wethers. Her does on the other hand will sell for around $200.00, which here is great for a kid, on an unfinished doe (Which we hope to finish this year). So like I said she is proving herself in the milk bucket and has proven herself in the show ring, but yes her papers matter or her kids wouldn't be worth anything, besides the cuteness factor.

Sarah

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Sarah Patterson
M & L Farm
Lamanchas, lamancha cross, Sable and Sable cross

You can also find us on facebook! M&L Farm

http://www.mandllamanchas.com *UPDATED*

Vicki
As they say, one is born EVERY minute and will soon be parted with their money!! For those of you not reading between the lines, this refers to a fool. If that many people REALLY care if the "paper" reads Purebred, and not American, then you have tapped into a FOOL'S market!!!!! Keep milking that gravy train, sister!!! You are obviously selling to a population of fools!!
I do NOT mean this personally, towards you. I have read a lot of your posts and you have GREAT advice on husbandry. On this issue, however, I cannot disagree with you more. And if this is the mindset of Nubian folk as a general whole, I have to question the logic of their opinion, then, of what makes a good quality goat. If it is all in the papers, so to speak, I can dispute that with scientific evidence.
THIS SAME ARGUMENT IS USED BY BREEDERS OF COTSWOLD SHEEP, of which I breed. ACRA seems to think that they have the more "genetically pure" strain of Cotswolds. HOGWASH!! I have bought ACRA and CBA registered sheep, and have CBA individuals beat the PANTS off ACRA individuals, UNDER AN ACRA JUDGE!!!! My point is, the paper on the animal is only as good as the animal that paper goes with. Purebred or American, ACRA or CBA, black or white, etc. does not matter, at least in this part of the country, if the animal cannot back it up. If I were you and your group, I would start questioning my line of thinking on how I spend my money, given the fact, according to an earlier post, an "American" beat all of your "Purebreds" in a National show!!! I don't know dairy goats, I am learning meat goat (boer), and have gotten to the point I can "school a few" on Angoras, but I DO KNOW LIVESTOCK AND SEEDSTOCK from over 30 years experience, as I started my own breeding program my second year in 4-H and won several awards at the state level for my program, second year into it. Therefore, mame, I believe I do know this issue, dairy or not!!

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Ira Roark
Pinion Coyote Farm and Ranch
Albuquerque, NM
ALWAYS REACH FOR THE STARS, BUT NEVER FORGET THE JEWELS AT YOUR FEET

I have lurked here for years. And this thread has got me to wondering a few things.

I will first do an introduction and some background of myself. I live in Wisconsin, I am a dairy goat farmer. Right now, I am milking about 650 does expanding to 800 next year. I have "grades" they all come from papered stock, the bucks that I buy have papers. Do I transfer them...not in a heart beat. The reason, I dont look at the papers twice a day, feed them 365 days a year. I could care less if they even have papers on them.

Now, some think that just because they have papers they are good stock. But, that is not the case. Just because they have a pedigree papers on them, that does not amount to a hill of beans. How does the dam milk, how does the granddam milk. Those are the questions that I want to know. I could really careless that they have won their champion status. You just need to win 3 shows of 10 animals. Well...it could happen that they was up against the same SMALL number of animals. I have been around the show circuit...more than I care about. What matters to me is how well they milk, and how they are going to put money in my pocket. I LOVE goats, but, I dont love them so much that I will go to the poor house.

As far as grades don't sell...that is hog wash!!! I will pay the same amount of money for a grade as a purebred. Why, with grades most of them have only one way of staying at someone place. They have to earn their keep. They are not kept because, they are the great great great great grand daughter of the National show in 1962. They are kept on how they work. Also, I sell about 200 head of doe kids a year for $350 a head at 8 weeks old. The reason being, I have DHIA milk records on the herd for the last 15 years. And when I started 15 years ago, I only bought from tested herds. So, some animals I am sure you could go back 20 to 30 years with milk records. As they say...the proof is in the pudding.

Ahh but that is why I have purebreds with papers. I can look at the generations of * milkers and get an understanding of what I can expect, better than someone telling me she is a gallon a day milker.

oh, i'm a happy fool
there are some nice americans out there but not in my herd and there never will be one either.

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Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

Then mame, you will most likely be a detriment to your breed. I don't mean this as a personal attack, so if it seems that way, I apologize. I will admit, I know NOTHING about dairy breeds. However, I don't have to. I have bred and raised MANY a purebred livestock, (duh, I am a seedstock producer) and when breeders try to negate one line of the breed with the only reason being some unwarranted predjudice to where the ancestry comes from, THEY END UP DESTROYING THE BREED!!! This is why in our Quarter Horses we now test for HYPP, etc. In Suffolk sheep you have spider gene. In a MAJORITY of dog breeds, we have hip dysplasia. Why? Looking at papers instead of animal performance. Now granted, this was not the ONLY reason these genetic "defaults" showed up, but I would bet my entire farm, it was a BIG reason.
Obviously, your "purebred" vs "American" view does not hold water except in your own egotistical view. Otherwise, an American buck would NOT have beat ALL the purebreds he was shown against. And the logic behind thinking they are worth less is flawed, because I have read a lot of statements on this thread, that some were completely smitten with an individual until they learned they were American!! DUMB DUMB DUMB That animal should be judged on the individual merits and what he/she is likely to pass on to offspring, not on what the papers say.
Remember, lines of Royalty "bred" this way of thinking, and from them we get the inheritable disease of anmemia!! Genetics will come around and bite you "elitist snobs" in the backside!!! MARK MY WORD!!

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Ira Roark
Pinion Coyote Farm and Ranch
Albuquerque, NM
ALWAYS REACH FOR THE STARS, BUT NEVER FORGET THE JEWELS AT YOUR FEET

and this is not a personal attack??????
my dear, as a seedstock producer you probably know where the money is. LOL
if not, you are fool too
if you don't know the dairy market, you need to get informed before you attack.
it is every bodies duty to get informed and think about goals before an animal is purchased.
is it only for my back yard and milk/meat and/or fiber production, it does not matter on what paper the animal is on or what ancestry is behind it.
belonging to the "elitist snobs" i want to breed animals where the production can be traced back a couple of generations. it also matters to me if i get $500 for a kid or only $50.
and if that does not matter to you, you are by far the bigger fool.

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Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

No, this is not a personal attack. It is not even meant to be an attack period, except on illogical thinking.
Maybe I am misunderstanding the argument. From my understanding, American Nubians, for the most part, can be traced back a "couple of generations". If I am misunderstanding, then I sincerely apologize. If I am not, then you JUST MADE MY POINT!! You state you want to breed animals where the production can be traced back a "couple of generations". If I am reading this thread correctly, you can still do this on the American Nubian!! Or at least most.
I had my Biology Professor read this thread also. She has a PhD in Biology, is a registered nurse, and raises livestock also. I thought maybe my being an older college student, my brain was on overload capacity and I was missing something. After all, it does not work as it used to!!
She agreed with me and seemed to reach the same conclusion, but conceded that we may be understanding this wrong in some way as to what constitutes an American vs. Purebred. If we are correct, though, after the fourth generation, the great-grandparents, the genetic influence has pretty much become negligible and are just "bragging rights" at this point. Therefore, any American that has Purebreds at least four generations back is just as "pure" as the regular Purebred and you are just paying for a name, nothing else. If that is what you want to do with your money, as I stated earlier, there is one born EVERY MINUTE!! This goes for ANY animal be it dairy, fiber, meat, four legged, two legged, papered, or not. And if I am understanding the "American" vs "Purebred" argument correctly and what constitutes an American Nubian, then mame, I am COMPLETELY informed and KNOW EXACTLY what I am talking about.
As a seedstock producer, I do know the value of the paper. This proves lineage, but as I said, when I go to purchase an animal, anything beyond the fourth generation is just decoration. I aslo know that MANY breeders try to blow smoke to use this bragging right as a selling point. All of whom I have informed that if that is what there price is based on, then pull my other leg since it has bells on it!!
The OP states that the mother of this little buckling was American, but had won her championship. This is a valid selling point. With a Champion mother, the buckling is coming from a strong genentic standpoint. There is a VERY HIGH probability he has inherited those championship qualities, especially given the fact we are told the individual was very interested, UNTIL THEY LEARNED that the mother was JUST AN AMERICAN NUBIAN. This makes no logical sense and shows the flaw in thinking that I am assuming, from this thread, most Nubian folk would have about breeding and attaining the most from their animals. THERE IS NO LOGICAL ARGUMENT THAT YOU CAN PRESENT THAT WOULD MAKE THIS SEEM LIKE SOUND REASONING WHEN PLANNING A BREEDING PROGRAM!! PERIOD!! And when a producer has a buyer that is genuinely interested in the betterment of the breed, they would be able to see this logic. And for your information, I bet you if you approached your market in this way, you could get the same comprable price for high quality animals. If the prevailing attitude about the American Nubian is the majority, I would educate others to stay away from this breed then, as this attitude and belief will only become the downfall of this wonderful, GORGEOUS, animated breed, as it has to SO MANY OTHER BREEDS OF LIVESTOCK!

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Ira Roark
Pinion Coyote Farm and Ranch
Albuquerque, NM
ALWAYS REACH FOR THE STARS, BUT NEVER FORGET THE JEWELS AT YOUR FEET