Could we discuss American Nubians vs. Nubians?

I have heard all the discussion on the American and Purebred Nubians and I am still just a bit confused. I accidently purchased an American Nubian buck last year. I was desperate to get my does bred, I knew AI wasn't going to work for me my first year and had a bad experience breeding out my 2 Alpines. So I bought this buck not understanding his pedigree and the seller did not clue me in even though she knew it was my first year. We anyway, now 2 of my Purebred does were bred to him before I finally realized it and purchased a Purebred Buck, Jar Jar, who is actually from Lonesome Does in Texas and we are quite excited to see what he produces. Well anyway I got 2 beautiful babies from the American and 2 are doelings. My daughter wants to show them at the local county fair. I am wondering if she can only show in the open class or can she show in the Purebred classs, I am not sure if they mean registered or actually registered and purebred. I plan on keeping them for my mom's dairy program which doesn't involve registered dairy goats, just nice milk goats. But I learned a lot, that is for sure and now I have not been able to sell him when I make sure people understand what they are getting they run the other way, lol. I guess I should have done that too!

There are people who are out there striving to dispel the 'purebred myth'. And it was not until a few years ago that an American Nubian became National CH Nubian. Both purebreds and Americans have blue papers in ADGA.

The purebred Nubian gene pool is getting to dangerously small. There has been talk of opening the herd book and allowing animals that meet certain guidelines to become purebreds. After all, how pure is pure?

The Anglo-Nubian certainly was not a purebred animal in the beginning in UK. All American really means is that a goat that was not purebred Nubian was graded up to be an American. This could have 15-20 generations back, and all the rest of the goats in the pedigree are purebreds. Again, how pure is pure?

The fact is that you do not milk the papers. Ears and faces on a purebred do not always meet breed standard. Keep what you like and don't get caught up in the form it takes.

What is amazing is how those with Purebreds feel one way and those with Americans who desperately want part of the purebred pie, say another. So in the end isn't it about marketing and not about genetic pool size American Nubians in ADGA, and it's the only place the registers American nubians are not an improvement, will not widen the nubian gene pool, because they are mostly using purebred bucks. Prove your Americans like the American Alpine has, then and only then are you an asset to the book.

Sorry for those on HT who couldn't care less about ADGA and it's politics, but couldn't let Betsy's post go unanswered in memorium or at least until the next purge of posts on here Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

Most everyone I've met seems uninterested in bothering to send in their paperwork on their goats. We have, and most everything we own is AGS or ADGA. The older man who disbudded for us is in his 70s has a gorgeous herd of Alpines. All of his foundation stock came with their kid paperwork. All of the kids he has sold could have been registered, but he said he didn't see any point. . .couldn't milk the paper. Of course, that makes sense and his buyers don't care, but ALL of those kids are purebred, papers or no.
Now, I like having the papers. My Arabs, my goats, and dog - they are mostly all registered.
Now, my Jersey heifer was bought with me not knowing how the AJCA worked, and she is actually ID as a Jersey with a registered sire and a grade dam. The AJCA will register her daughter's heifers as full blooded, registered Jerseys. . .I intended to buy only a registered heifer, but I messed up there. On the upside, she is SO much better looking than the registered heifers I've found since, I'd take her over them anyday.
I like having the purebred papers, myself, though. . .for whatever it is worth.

As a bit of an update. I was able to get the ten year old American Nubian mentioned above into my name and her two daughters and now one granddaughter will have/already have papers.
The others I didn't get so lucky on. Their daughters started out at 50% Nubian and I already have an American Nubian doeling from that line. I've also recorded a fair number of 50% and a couple of the 75% Nubian doelings.
I'm an American Nubian breeder that isn't interested in seeing the Nubian herdbook opened. I guess I tend to be against the norm. It irks me that AJCA allows crossbreeds back into the herdbook. I'd rather they have an "American" category like the ADGA. So maybe my purist snobby ways come from that. The family has been raising registered Jerseys since the late 1800s.
I plan to add my first Purebred Nubian doe(lings) this year.
Unfortunately, I am not likely going to get more for their daughters than I do for my others.
Maybe I will be pleasantly surprised...assuming I get to the point where I am willing to let some go. lol

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Roseanna
Morning Mist Herd
Journey's End Jerseys
Jerseys, Jersey/Norwegian Reds, Beef, Boers, Nubians & crossbreeds

I think those who have wonderful goats, but really don't care about all the paper are the blessed ones, not ones to feel sorry for.

As said above, you can't milk paper.

Many of us on this board are backyard homesteaders with dairy goats in order to provide food and enrich our lives in other ways. We don't show, and we don't weigh the milk every day. We focus our lives in different directions.

I do have three Alpines with papers, but from different organizations. I have LaManchas with papers from different organizations. I tattoo all my goats, paper or not. Paper and tattoos help me travel more easily, due to border inspections.

To each his own.

Go hug a goat!

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Alice
* * *
"No great thing is created suddenly." ~Epictitus

On a note, I think it is just fair to remember that many animals are purebreeds and haven't been registered. A lack of papers doesn't indicate they aren't a purebred animal, just that one can't often prove they are. . .as in Elmer's case, with the Alpines. It would be incorrect to assume an unregistered, American or grade animal has to be crossedbred.
I rescued an Arab mare that came with foal papers. She wasn't registered because no one cared to send them in. She was 12 by the time I rescued her. It would have cost MUCH more than she was worth to register her, but regardless, she was a purebred any one with the papers.

I just bought 2 (soon to be 3) that are being registered as Native on Appearance because the original owner never took the time to register them - then couldn't find the paperwork when the person I am getting them from rescued them from her and then they were just never obtained. I'm ok with it - and so are my daughters who will still be showing them in the local 4-H show ring. They just want to have fun - and we just want the milk.

Now - with my LGD dogs - I don't mess with it and people who have crosses sometimes just drop the dog at the shelter because it didn't "do it's job"..... I know some people who have crosses that are GREAT LGD's - but then some who seem to expect something out of a breed that really has no interest (like my chubby mutt who is something but we have no idea what)....

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Dana
Chicama Run

Nubian breeders tend to be the snobbiest about purebred status. There are a few people in other dairy breeds that will only work with purebreds, but most work with Americans. American Saanens have just as much status as purebreds--after all, our Americans show with the purebreds in the same classes, and often beat the purebreds. We have a wider genepool in the American Saanens than available with the purebred Saanens. There are not many purebred herds that I would consider using a buck out of.

When I had a Nubian, however, I always bred her to a purebred Nubian (except when I bred her to a Saanen) If I had kept the Saanen/Nubian crosses, I probably would have eventually bred them to a LaMancha rather than breeding to either Saanen or Nubian. I never did that, however, because I sold everything with Nubian blood.

For those who are still confused at the difference between "Purebred" and "American" goats, a "Purebred" is a goat where 100% of the ancestors can be traced back to either original imports of that breed, or imported goats of that breed considered to be purebred by the goat registry of the country from which they where imported (as long as ADGA recognizes that registry). An "American" is a goat that has one or more ancestors which were either not registered or of a different breed, but there have been several generations of breeding to American or Purebred stock in which every animal for a specified number of generations meets the standard for that breed. Both "Americans" and "Purebreds" have blue papers, and both show in the same classes.

A goat with blue papers, whether "American" or "Purebred" is going to be more valuable than an unregistered goat because you can trace the ancestry and look up performance records. A goat with either blue or brown papers with strong performance records in the immediate pedigree is most valuable. Any doe with either blue (American or purebred) or brown (experimental or grade) can be shown in an American Dairy Goat Association show. When you purchase a goat without papers, even if it looks exactly like a particular breed, you have no idea what to expect because you do not have any official records (unless you purchased from a dairy that does DHI testing on unregistered does).

Okay, this is what I was looking for when I started reading the thread. Brass tacks.

SO, just to make sure I have this right:
Purebred Nubian = registered ancestry

American Nubian = undocumented ancestry

Is that correct?

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Je ne suis pas Alice

http://homesteadingfamilies.proboards.com/

Regardless, I want an Australian Nubian - lol!

To Pony- Sort of- all blue papered goats have 'documented' ancestry.

The purebreds trace their 'pure-ness' to the original imports of that particular breed when they stepped of the boat into the US.

American (purebreds) may have an ancestor who is not reg., another breed, etc., but they still have blue papers that detail their pedigrees- the goat brought into the American's pedigree may be 10 or 20+ generations back.

Again, how pure is pure?

There was a well known 'purebred' Australian Saanen imported here back in the 70's by Harvey Considine named Wariere Kiwi.

By Australian standards he was purebred. By US standards he was American. He went into the general US Saanen gene pool and had purebred and American offspring. He threw Sables. And he deconstructed udders. But his get did better by him and he did have a positive effect on the US Saanen herd.

So, a purebred Nubian form OZ may not be in fact purebred by US standards.

"It would be incorrect to assume an unregistered, American or grade animal has to be crossedbred."
I think it is actually the other way around...assume she is. Years ago I bought a "purebred but no papers" Alpine - I used a registered purebred buck on her- she kidded with kids who had floppy airplane ears. If you don't have paperwork to say what the animal genetics were, assume the worst and pay accordingly. It doesn't mean they are a bad animal but new people should understand the difference so they are not overpaying, as I did, for the unknown. BTW I still have grade goats but also purebreds too.

Pony, not exactly. A purebred animal has 100% documented ancestry from the original imports (or more recent imports that are recognized as purebred).

An American animal has 87.5-99.9% documented ancestry, and all ancestors for the previous three generations (and the animal itself) meet breed standard.

An Experimental will have 89-100% documented ancestry, but be from different breeds (or be a purebred or American animal that does not meet breed standard--Sables were registered as experimentals until they had their own herd book).

A recorded grade will have less than 87.5% documented ancestry, or have more documented ancestry but not have three or more generations where 100% of the animals meet breed standard. It can also occur when there are three generations that meet breed standard but the doe who would be first generation American does not meet breed standard.

WOW***I thought Angoras and Boers were political. I now thank my lucky stars NOT to have milkers!?!?! Don't you all tire of this? I mean what does it have to do with ANYTHING wether or not they are "purebred" or "American". IM DARN PROUD TO BE AMERICAN!! LOL Of course, all I got is a birth certificate!!

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Ira Roark
Pinion Coyote Farm and Ranch
Albuquerque, NM
ALWAYS REACH FOR THE STARS, BUT NEVER FORGET THE JEWELS AT YOUR FEET

It doesn't bother me at all, because I am just plain not involved in it.

When I wanted goats, I looked high and low, and found someone knowledgeable and experienced, who cared enough to make sure her goats went to good homes and who has fantastic follow-up. (Ozark Jewels.)

My goats have papers (and I really need to dig those up so I can register the kids), but I'm not going to go crazy if they have the right shade of blue paper. They're healthy, well-bred, wonderful goats. That's what I wanted, and that's what I got.

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Je ne suis pas Alice

http://homesteadingfamilies.proboards.com/

Three?! registeries and you think dairy goat owners are worse? lol
I have yet to even bother papering my Boers and crosses. Way too rich ($) for my taste. I have a registered Fullblood Boer buck only so when I go to sell him he might have a better chance of being placed. Though I don't know if I'll sell him that route or not.
Politic are found in all breeds. It is just the way it is.
I really am not too concerned about papers, except that the Purebred Polled Nubian genepool is just sooo small. My goal is to increase the genepool and to do so, I need those Blue papers that say Purebred on them in the Nubian world.
If it weren't for that, I wouldn't care. Even with that in mind, I've been looking for Purebred Nubian does to add to the breeding program for years and have not added any. This year, one or two will be added.

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Roseanna
Morning Mist Herd
Journey's End Jerseys
Jerseys, Jersey/Norwegian Reds, Beef, Boers, Nubians & crossbreeds

I am SOOO glad my tongue in cheek humor did not go missed!! THANKS PONY AND DOSTHOUHAVEMILK!! Dost, I agree, all breeds have their politics and it SUCKS. I mean we are talking animals here, people, not saving the human race from extinction!! I only paper my animals for LOCAL shows. And the only reason for this is because 80-90% of my sales have been generated this way. And also, I look at shows as a social event to get together with likeminded folks and share ideas, similar to this forum, only in person. THE BEST PART OF SHOWS IS BEATING THOSE FOLKS WHO ARE THE CUTTHROAT SHOW PEOPLE!! It has gotten to where I don't care if I am next to last, as long as they are LAST!! Yup, I'm sadistic that way!!:smiley-laughing013: But my opinion is that the paper is WORTHLESS unless you have the animal to back it up!! PERIOD!!!! You can have an animal papered up the ying yang and back to the garden of Eden, but unless they can perform the job they were bred to do, IT IS WORTHLESS!! And let's remember the term, HYBRID VIGOR!! Many of the "grade" individuals tend to outperform their "purebred, papered" counterparts. And this is coming from a seedstock producer!!

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Ira Roark
Pinion Coyote Farm and Ranch
Albuquerque, NM
ALWAYS REACH FOR THE STARS, BUT NEVER FORGET THE JEWELS AT YOUR FEET

I have to admit I was considering buying a Nubian, purebred or American just to cross with my Lamancha buck....I want the great milk of the Nubian with the great milk of the Lamancha to make great milk Numanchas....plus the Roman Nose and funny little ears make an awesome drowsy look....to me what matters is milk production and an animal that is going to have the longevity to produce for many years, the papers come second. After all my best milker is a Lamancha Tog who gave 6.5lbs this morning at 13 days fresh.

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Sarah Patterson
M & L Farm
Lamanchas, lamancha cross, Sable and Sable cross

You can also find us on facebook! M&L Farm

http://www.mandllamanchas.com *UPDATED*