Too weak to kid ???
 

Mom has a doe that's been looking worse and worse as the weeks go by. She has taken fecal sample after fecal sample to the vet and everytime he says it's barber pole worms and we worm her again with Ivomec. But she's just gotten worse. She was free ranging on 150 acres. And got all stock everyday. She is now in an 8' X 8' pen with grass hay, free choice alfalfa pellets, and some all stock everyday along with clean clear water. She was pen bred last fall. She is four days past the day when she could be due. The other two does that were in the pen with her and the buck have already kidded. Mom can feel the kids moving in her. She can hear their heartbeats with a bebe monitor. But when the doe lays down she stays there till we help her up. She can walk around when she's up, but once she lays down, we don't think she can get up on her own. I recently read about fluke eggs being mistaken for barber pole worm eggs and so we've wormed her with Ivomec plus. Mom probios her and nutradrenchs her everyday. Is there anything else we can do??? Could it be that she's too weak to kid? I would really rather not loose this doe, even in order to save the kids for sure. I mean, I'm not about to cut her open while she's still alive. The vet really doesnt seem to know what to do. Does anyone else seem to have any suggestions of what we can do to help her????

It's obvious the Ivomec isnt working You need a new wormer.

I've had great luck with Prohibit Drench Powder:

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.h...2-00b0d0204ae5

Wormers need to be changed at least yearly so the worms dont build up a resistance

I know that's why we've started the ivomec plus, because it kills flukes too. I think I've seen that at the Tractor supply, I can pick that up. Wormers are such a tricky subject. They teach at the Prairie View International Goat Research Center that if you rotate wormers that you just build up resistance to all of them faster. I'm giving up and ordering the 1978 parasitology textbook so I can tell the difference between barber pole eggs and fluke eggs myself so I can tell what she REALLY has (since plain old Ivomec doesn't kill flukes, she could have easily had that the whole time and not barber poles and all that worming wouldn't do a thing. I could give her the whole bottle of plain Ivomec and it still wouldn't do anything. It's very frustrating. I'm worming everyone with Ivomec PLUS now, to catch flukes too). But in the meantime, I've got to figure out a way to strengthen her and what to do about the kids if she goes into labor (if she can even GO into labor while she's this weak.)

Any chance it could be ketosis?

I dont know what Ketosis looks like. So I'm not sure. I'll look it up and see what I can do to treat (even if it isnt. I'm grasping at straws) I looked at the inside of her eyelids and they are typing paper white, but they arent far off.

I'll go look it up now.

I just read this http://dairygoatinfo.com/index.php/topic,21.0.html and it has been helpful, but also very scary since it confirms that she's not going to be able to deliver by herself. Not have labor by herself. Not pass the placenta by herself. I have to say, I'm scared.

The thing is, I KNOW she's eating. Mom's been feeding her separately for about a month. And her breath doesnt smell like acetone. hummmm I'm still researching, but your suggestion gave me a place to start.

With hypocalcemia, the doe's breath doesn't smell like acetone. You need some meds for this girl. Contact your vet ASAP. Get either injectable CMPK or Norcalciphos and give her 30cc subQ divided in 2 or 3 places. Do this twice a day. If you are certain of her due date, get some lutelayse and deximethazone to induce her. You don't say when the last time was that you wormed her and you don't want to poison her with wormers, but 10 days out from her last worming use cydectin pour on orally. That is what they use in Texas. The correct dose is on dairygoatinfo. Good luck with your doe and her kids. If she really is unable to have the kids on her own, of course you don't cut her yourself. A vet can co a C section.

I would also suggest some red cell each day since she is so anemic from the worms....

I am currently using Postive feed wormer from tractor supply and it works! I had a doe with worms and she got better right away!

You need to use the Cydectin cattle pour on orally---1 cc per 22 lbs of goat weight, if you give a little more it won't hurt the goat. Red cell for anemia. Do you bolus for copper? Having adequate copper does help increase resistance to worms.

Obviously your first wormer hasn't been effective and Cydectin should do the trick. However, this goat is anemic and the first thing I'd do is start daily vit. B shots and/or something ala Red Cell if needed.

I second the calcium!!! Hopefuly Vicky will chime in:goodjob: for you. they have calcium drench at tractor supply for goats if thats all you can get.
I just went through this with a friends goat.She was just dragging and not really eating all her food but still eating.She called me in the morning and said she was shaky. I told her to give the calcium drench to be safe. She went into labor in an hour.I had to pull kids, she was so tired.
It's beem a little over aweek and she's finally perking up. calcuim denched her for three days, gave selimiun, nutra drench untill she started to eat agian. there is a great write up on dairygoatinfo good luck

Actully this was TOTALLY not a "what do I do about her worms question" this was a "What do I do since I think she's too weak to kid" question. Ketosis makes her breath smell like acetone. Thats what www.dairygoatinfo.com says. However I did get CMPK which www.dairygoatinfo.com says to dose her with 30 ccs every TWO HOURS not days.

Needless to say none of this matters since the VET says to SHOOT HER IN THE HEAD, CUT HER OPEN AND TAKE OUT THE KIDS. Now I was KINDA try to find a different solution, which is why I asked. I wouldnt leave until he gave us that big long named med that induces labor, and some scalpels ...you know in case I have to shoot her in the head, cut her open and take out the babies.....since she seems to weak to kid.

But thanks for all of your wormer advice, even though I said plainly twice that I was already trying a different wormer.

I think I would find another vet to do a c-section.
I would think they could save her and the kids that way, couldn't they?

I would try to get a hold of Vicky. Her info is on dairygoatinfo.com.

She's had goats for years. She has helped lots of people on here. Me being one of them. IT'S WORTH A SHOT! I think i would be looking for another vet ASAP. The calcium may at least start her labor. You will have to pull the kids but at least it gives her a chance.
I gave the drench every couple hours for 24 hrs, then 2x a day untill she seemed better.
Good luck I hope they all make it

Vet said she would NEVER survive the anesthesia. Or the infection that can set in from being cut open. C sections are reserved for goats that are dead.

The med to induce gave her contractions and then she died. I wish I had known how to help a delivery when the goat is too weak to stand up. Wish I had shot her in the head and cut her open faster than taking the time to make sure she was dead befor I opeded her up. That 1 min was too long. All dead here.

Joy, I am so sorry. You did your best. You were in a tough spot.
We like to avoid these things, but it isn't always possible.
The best I can offer you is this,
:grouphug:

Thank you very much for the hugs Mama!!! It's hard enough doing what has to be done without vets (and people in general) not wanting to tell you what to do cause ...you know....we girls are just too soft, or stupid, or whatever they figure we are! DH was a wrestler for 8 years, he's a big tough, strong guy.......he held the scalpel till I needed it to cut her open.....then he went out with the kids.

Sorry it ended so badly for you. :( I just had a calf with the same problem, I just had no clue she was wormy until she was down, she was so anemic, and even being young and not pregnant she didn't make it. It was very upsetting, I really liked that calf and had nursed her for a month working to get her over joint ill and she was just starting to do really well. She was so pretty and just a pet.

Make sure and worm them before pregnancy, when you can use stronger wormers without worry of abortion. Do fecals to make sure it's effective for you, and keep an eye on your eyelids. I check mine almost daily.

I've read here you can't take babies from a dead goat, they die too quickly. You have to shoot the goat and very quickly pull the babies.

When I was a teen I lost my show calf to redwater. FIRST case in the ENTIRE region. I was so depressed I even wore a black arm band to school for a week. I'm sorry you had to go through that. I still miss JoJo.

I am SO SORRY for your loss! You are a very BRAVE & STRONG person who is a girl! I don't know if I could ever do what you went through today & God Help me to never have to find out! Lots of HUGS sent to you!

GIGGLE! Heck! Ever wonder why the guys aren't MOMS??? I doubt they could stand it!! giggle. DH is petrafied cause next baby is gonna be born at HOME! Sometimes things are just made harder by the fact that we dont get credit for being as strong as we are! (who do they think pushed them out anyway!...and that's not directed to ALL guys...dh worships me, as I do him, but a great amount of guys just seem to forget that!)

That thread about moms having 7+ kids! Now THOSE women are strong. I stand back for them! I just grew up a ranch and I learned that sometimes you have to just take a deep breath and do the best you can doing something you'd RATHER NOT do, and then cry about it later. I just want to make sure I learn better, so I do better next time.

When it comes down to it....I did something today that our vet's never done. (and he's a guy with a collage degree in this stuff. He should know how to DO it RIGHT!)

And as impossible as it sounds....I really would have rather saved her than the kids. I was hoping if I could treat her for HC than she'd get better. I didnt expect her to get a hernia, or look like it was time right then to induce. I was hoping to have a day to treat her. She was weaker than I thought if she just turned her head and died. She was JUST SO ALERT I didnt realize JUST how far gone she was.