CAE psitive dairy goats- ok for personal use?

susanne · #21 02/29/08, 12:35 PM

cathleenc this makes totally sense for your situation.

wendy it is the way we are managing this disease. it is so important to be informed, know the status about out animals, be responsible and do the right thing. there is a lot hype out there about cae because of miss information

jBlaze · #22 02/29/08, 01:13 PM

[QUOTE=susanne;2903229]there is no evidence that a doe, carrying antibodies, but low enough to be detected, is infectious to her herd mates.
QUOTE]

I do not agree with the above. I prefer this:

Quote:

there is a lot hype out there about cae because of miss information

Call WSU, talk to Dr. Everman, or any of the people there. That is where the research has been and is being done. Testing has improved. Unfortunately people do not seem to be keeping up with the technology available.

CAE is obviously a big deal to some folks. It should be. But make sure that what you are telling other people is correct!!!!

Many CAE pos goats will never show symptoms. It is passed through milk and blood. It can be prevented. It cannot be cured. Get the facts.

susanne · #23 02/29/08, 01:45 PM

[QUOTE=jBlaze;2904188]

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

there is no evidence that a doe, carrying antibodies, but low enough to be detected, is infectious to her herd mates.
QUOTE]

I do not agree with the above. I prefer this:

Call WSU, talk to Dr. Everman, or any of the people there. That is where the research has been and is being done. Testing has improved. Unfortunately people do not seem to be keeping up with the technology available.

CAE is obviously a big deal to some folks. It should be. But make sure that what you are telling other people is correct!!!!

Many CAE pos goats will never show symptoms. It is passed through milk and blood. It can be prevented. It cannot be cured. Get the facts.

i think there is a miss understanding?
a positive doe can be infectious for other animals but might never show symptoms her self.
a doe that shows negative on the test, but was exposed to the virus and only shows negative because antibodies are still too low to be detected, might not be infectious to others. this info came from dr. everman.

**mygoat** · #24 02/29/08, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jBlaze

Many CAE pos goats will never show symptoms. It is passed through milk and blood. It can be prevented.

I agree that people generally do not test because of the inaccuracy of tests in past years. Nowadays they are especially accurate enough to be worthwhile in regulating and eliminating the disease.

For me and others, butchering positives is the best and most responsible action to be taken. Finding another home responsible and willing to take on the challenge of maintaining a positive doe and her kids is next to impossible. I do not want to risk the transmission of it within the herd, and I do not have time, money, resources to properly maintain two separate herds. If you have the time, money, and resources to RESPONSIBLY maintain positive animals in isolation at your farm, all the power to you. If you don't, do the right thing and stop propagating the disease due to your denial that the disease is a serious matter. I don't care if most does live long with no symptoms. You NEVER KNOW when your positive doe will go down in pain - could be while you're away at a show or on vacation.... Will the caretaker know what to do? You never know which herdmates it will spread to; Your favorite doe could go down just a few weeks before she kids or before a show. Or, what if you sell that positive animal; How do you know the new owners will put that suffering doe down in a timely matter, or that they are managing her properly to contain the spread? Or, for that matter, do you know if her positive offspring are being managed properly?

Why isolate your positives from the rest of your negative herd? Because it CAN TRANSMIT ADULT-ADULT. I have proof of it. I have a Cozy-Hollow doe that was raised in a negative herd on strict prevention and tested negative at least twice per year untill she was sold to Alpine Valley as a 3.5-4 year old. After a year at Alpine Valley, I purchased her not knowing Alpine Valley is a notorious CAE Positive herd. She has tested positive and also infected my other american alpine through drinking her milk (little thief!). I know the cozy-hollow doe does not drink milk so transmission must have occurred through daily contact during the year at Alpine Valley. Needless to say, those does are isolated and will be butchered after they kid out in two weeks.

Ethically, I cannot condone the spread of a contagious disease that could possibly cause pain an suffering AND IS A CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE. I would much rather end their lives at a convenient time when they are happily munching grain off the ground - not in pain, not scared, not stressed - with a painless bullet.

Wendy · #25 02/29/08, 02:08 PM

Quote:

know the status about out animals, be responsible and do the right thing.

I am not saying people should not try to prevent this disease. Like I said, I bought from a negative herd & practice strict preventive feedings of all kids born here, including my Pygmy kids which people think is awful. Who bottle feeds Pygmies afterall?? Anyway, I am just saying if I were to test mine now & find out one is positive, I would not immediately go out & kill it just because of that test. Especially if they are showing no symptoms.

That to me is like saying all people with HIV should be killed even though they might not have a full blown case of AIDS. That would prevent the spread of that horrible disease you know.

I do not think people should sell CAE positive goats to buyers that don't have a clue. I don't think they should pretend their herd is negative if it isn't. I do tell potential buyers that while I do not test, I do raise on prevention. If they wanted to test a doe at their own expense, I wouldn't have a problem with that. I normally don't sell milkers, only kids. I just don't think an animal should be killed ebcause it "might" become crippled. That could happen to any animal for a number of reasons.

OH, I don't go on vacation or show, so I don't have to worry about the what if's of it happening while I am gone.

What about all the people that show at the fair or otherwise? Do you not worry about them contracting something there? Afterall, if it can be spread from adult to adult as you claim, then you are putting them at risk every time you take them off your farm to mingle with other goats. Isn't that bad management on your part? Placing them in situations with other adult animals that you have no clue about is exposing them to all kinds of things. So I could also say your managment isn't as good as you claim either.

Keeping a CAE positive doe does not mean you don't care about your animals or the disease. Everyone does what works for them. Just because you might not think it is right, doesn't mean your way is right either.

jBlaze · #26 02/29/08, 02:22 PM

People who are serious about maintaining CAE neg will keep a closed herd. Not allowing any new goats on their property. Disinfect the shoes and hands of visitors. Those that show, will isolate those that left for several weeks, then test and hope they didn't catch anything. Shows are scary places, so many diseased animals and either clueless or irresponsible owners.
And keeping a positive lactating doe with a neg herd is just putting the herd at risk. You never know where the pos may drip somewhere. How do you think it spreads at shows!

ET1 SS · #27 02/29/08, 02:27 PM

Short of shipping blood to WSU for testing, each year.

Our local vet says that his tests are not 100% accurate.

The disease can be spread via milk and blood.

We have been advised, if it shows up in a herd, to drop it, to drop it's dam and / or it's offspring. As the only sure method of containing the disease.

Feel free to continue saying this is 'mis-information'

I do not want a contagious disease in my herd, and I have no 100% method of screening animals.

So here I am mis-information and all.

susanne · #28 02/29/08, 02:32 PM

wendy i agree with you

susanne · #29 02/29/08, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET1 SS

Short of shipping blood to WSU for testing, each year.

Our local vet says that his tests are not 100% accurate.

The disease can be spread via milk and blood.

We have been advised, if it shows up in a herd, to drop it, to drop it's dam and / or it's offspring. As the only sure method of containing the disease.

Feel free to continue saying this is 'mis-information'

I do not want a contagious disease in my herd, and I have no 100% method of screening animals.

So here I am mis-information and all.

you might need to consider raising a different livestock animal.
somehow i get the feeling you are mixing cae with cl?

ET1 SS · #30 02/29/08, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

you might need to consider raising a different livestock animal. somehow i get the feeling you are mixing cae with cl?

???

CAE (Caprine Arthritis Encephalitis), a nervous disease in goats the most direct infection route for CAE is from mother, to kid, through infected colostrum, body fluids, and milk. It is most often compared to HIV / AIDS.

It can present in either one of two methods:
a- The problem is one of progressive weakness (paresis) of the hind limbs leading to eventual paralysis. The early paresis may be perceived as lameness, incoordination or weakness in one or both rear legs

b- The disease is usually first recognized as a gradually developing lameness accompanied or followed by swelling of the joints. Swelling is most often noted in the front knees (carpi) and can also be seen in the hock and stifle joints

CL [Caseous Lymphadenitis] a disease where the goat develops puss filled abscesses, especially on their throat in the lymph glands.

These are entirely two differnet things, and no confusion should exist between them.

Thank you however for the mis-information.

DQ · #31 02/29/08, 03:26 PM

wendy, I am on the exact same page as you. it irritates me that anyone one who is not willing to immediatly put down a positive animal is labeled as "irresponsible". It is a way of manipulating people (because of the serious negative connotations of the term that no one wants applied to them) and to be boastful about their own superiority. Only one of the breeders I have talked to around here even knows what CAE is and I haven't seen any goats that are symptomatic, any wasting I have seen is easily attributed to poor husbandry or outright neglect. it makes me very suspicious that it is mostly just a marketing tool because the disease cycle could easily be broken in one generation. Granted most of the breeders I have spoken to are boer goat operations and it may be more prevalent in the dairy industry and in fact probably is, due to the pooling of milk to feed kids which of course never happens in the meat goat world. Its interesting that the pulling of kids from the dams and the consequential outbreak of CAE created the modern justification for pulling kids from their dams and the higher prices commanded for those kids. Additionally if the disease was easily transmissible between adults it would have been much more prevalent in history. As I see it, with the information I have been privy to, it only became a problem when mass goat dairy operations came into existence.

dkdairygoats · #32 02/29/08, 03:34 PM

I have 11 Alpine does, three of which are positive for CAE. Every one of them was bought in (yes, I now test BEFORE buying) and hasn't spread it. I raise kids on prevention. I don't separate the negative and positive does, one positive has been in my herd for 4 years and none of my negative does has changed status. I test every year. I don't feel CAE makes my goats worthy of slaughter....careful management yes, butchering no. On the other hand, I will put down any that test positive for Johne's disease...that is something they will show signs from 100% of the time. With CAE 75% of the positive goats will never show signs. Mine are completely asymptomatic besides one with a hard udder. If one ever should show signs of suffering, I will put it down....until then I keep testing and raise my kids completely CAE free.

Quote:

Why isolate your positives from the rest of your negative herd? Because it CAN TRANSMIT ADULT-ADULT. I have proof of it. I have a Cozy-Hollow doe that was raised in a negative herd on strict prevention and tested negative at least twice per year untill she was sold to Alpine Valley as a 3.5-4 year old. After a year at Alpine Valley, I purchased her not knowing Alpine Valley is a notorious CAE Positive herd. She has tested positive and also infected my other american alpine through drinking her milk (little thief!). I know the cozy-hollow doe does not drink milk so transmission must have occurred through daily contact during the year at Alpine Valley.

Adult to adult transmission does happen....but very rarely. Most likely it happened because they used the same needle on more than one goat when giving vaccines or something. Drinking infected milk will infect an adult. As far as just living together...I don't think it happens very often.

ET1 SS · #33 02/29/08, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DQ

wendy, I am on the exact same page as you. it irritates me that anyone one who is not willing to immediatly put down a positive animal is labeled as "irresponsible". It is a way of manipulating people (because of the serious negative connotations of the term that no one wants applied to them) and to be boastful about their own superiority. Only one of the breeders I have talked to around here even knows what CAE is and I haven't seen any goats that are symptomatic, any wasting I have seen is easily attributed to poor husbandry or outright neglect. it makes me very suspicious that it is mostly just a marketing tool ,,,

Okay I am confused.

One of the nannys that I got at auction was losing balance, falling over. She appeared to be alert. I would help her up and she was fine. After the third time that I observed her fall down, I isolated her from the rest. She did not have a high temp. Over the next week, I noticed her front knees swelling. And her periods of active walking and climbing became shorter as time went on, she would lay on the ground and cry. She just did not have the ablility to keep her legs locked and underneath her while her was standing. When she was walking she would begin to lean and fall over. Her front knees swoll up huge. It was watching a goat who could not control her legs anymore. I described this to the vet and he said she had CAE and to put her down.

A few weeks later a yearling buck started doing the same thing. He would be on the ground and start crying for help. I would help him stand up, and I saw that his front knees were swelling. He could jump and run for a ways, then fall down again. He had a good appetite, and was alert.

I did not see any 'wasting', just loss of control over their legs.

When I spoke with the vet about screening the herd. He scolded me for buying at auction. And said that he would willingly take my money, but the tests were not conclusive. We could spend the money and test them all, and they might all test negative. But I could still have more goats present with the symptoms.

Around here a lot of goats are traded at auction. I know two brokers who buy large numbers of goats at auction, and who haul them all down South to Boston or NYC to sell them to butchers.

NewlandNubians · #34 02/29/08, 04:56 PM

I had a doe that kept testing negative year after year with WSU's sensitive ELISA test. I *knew* she was at a risk to convert to pos. because she had been fed raw milk as a kid. At five years of age she FINALLY turned positive after being tested not too long after she kidded (she kidded late that year, I usually test for CAE in July and she kidded in June). That doe had been kept in with tested negatives for at least a couple years since I started testing when she was about two or so BECAUSE she was always negative on testing. I should've gone with my gut and treated her as a positive all along. Thankfully when she converted she was on pasture with only one other doe but the other doe ended up positive and the other doe did end up positive much quicker. The doe that converted as a five year old? She's now eight and is *EXTREMELY* healthy. I sold her as a known positive to a lady who wanted her. She just had kids recently and the lady is raising them prevention as anyone should whose goats are in contact with other people's goats. I guess WSU's CAE test could've been not as accurate as it is now but we're talking a time frame of less than ten years ago that all of this took place. So there is at least one confirmed "sleeper positive" around.

That being said I harbor CAE positives. Two of them are seven years old now, both are productive and healthy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

wendy that is also not correct. a doe that was exposed to cae, will test positive in general after three month. the longest know case was 8 month. call waddl and talk to dr. john everman.
stories where does tested negative for years and all the sudden came up positive comes from times where the test was not as accurate as it is today.

NewlandNubians · #35 02/29/08, 05:11 PM

I had a doe that kept testing negative year after year with WSU's sensitive ELISA test. I *knew* she was at a risk to convert to pos. because she had been fed raw milk as a kid. At five years of age she FINALLY turned positive after being tested not too long after she kidded (she kidded late that year, I usually test for CAE in July and she kidded in June). That doe had been kept in with tested negatives for at least a couple years since I started testing when she was about two or so BECAUSE she was always negative on testing. I should've gone with my gut and treated her as a positive all along. Thankfully when she converted she was on pasture with only one other doe but the other doe ended up positive and the other doe did end up positive much quicker. The doe that converted as a five year old? She's now eight and is *EXTREMELY* healthy. I sold her as a known positive to a lady who wanted her. She just had kids recently and the lady is raising them prevention as anyone should whose goats are in contact with other people's goats. I guess WSU's CAE test could've been not as accurate as it is now but we're talking a time frame of less than ten years ago that all of this took place. So there is at least one confirmed "sleeper positive" around.

That being said I harbor CAE positives. Two of them are seven years old now, both are productive and healthy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

wendy that is also not correct. a doe that was exposed to cae, will test positive in general after three month. the longest know case was 8 month. call waddl and talk to dr. john everman.
stories where does tested negative for years and all the sudden came up positive comes from times where the test was not as accurate as it is today.

**mygoat** · #36 02/29/08, 06:21 PM

Reread my post. I didn't say that all positives in all herds should be killed. I certainly didn't say that if you don't do what I do, you're wrong; I said if you have the resources and time to responsibly care for your positives, go for it. I don't dislike those herds that are open about their status and ARE RESPONSIBLE about their positives - with testings, isolation, proper management and doing all they can to halt the transmission of the disease. I currently have two positive does. I do, however, despise herds that deny they have do have a problem and do nothing/little to prevent its spread.

I personally believe that transmission between individuals is more common than believed, but probably has to do with the different strains and how 'strongly' the herd is infected... just something I've idly contemplated, I have no proof, hehe.

Shows are risky, yes. Properly handled, however, the possibility disease transmission is minimal. If I ever feel my animals are at risk while at a show, I simply will not stay. No animals with signs of transmittable disease as well as any accompanying it are allowed to stay at sanctioned shows. I will test my show string every 3 months when I finally start showing.

susanne · #37 02/29/08, 06:37 PM

cathy why are you so sure the doe was infected because of raw milk? i know you are showing and there are so many different ways how an animal can get infected.

Wendy · #38 02/29/08, 08:09 PM

Quote:

No animals with signs of transmittable disease as well as any accompanying it are allowed to stay at sanctioned shows. I will test my show string every 3 months when I finally start showing.

And there lies the problem. If they show no signs of a disease, then they can be shown. How many are positive or sick, but just aren't showing any signs?? At our local fair they don't even do vet check anymore on the animals coming in. My kids aren't in 4-H & I don't show. I think at any show they should have to show proof of a vet check & tests that show negative results on the animals being shown for diseases that are transmissable.

ozark_jewels · #39 02/29/08, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ET1 SS

Okay I am confused.

One of the nannys that I got at auction was losing balance, falling over. She appeared to be alert. I would help her up and she was fine. After the third time that I observed her fall down, I isolated her from the rest. She did not have a high temp. Over the next week, I noticed her front knees swelling. And her periods of active walking and climbing became shorter as time went on, she would lay on the ground and cry. She just did not have the ablility to keep her legs locked and underneath her while her was standing. When she was walking she would begin to lean and fall over. Her front knees swoll up huge. It was watching a goat who could not control her legs anymore. I described this to the vet and he said she had CAE and to put her down.

A few weeks later a yearling buck started doing the same thing. He would be on the ground and start crying for help. I would help him stand up, and I saw that his front knees were swelling. He could jump and run for a ways, then fall down again. He had a good appetite, and was alert.

I did not see any 'wasting', just loss of control over their legs.

When I spoke with the vet about screening the herd. He scolded me for buying at auction. And said that he would willingly take my money, but the tests were not conclusive. We could spend the money and test them all, and they might all test negative. But I could still have more goats present with the symptoms.

Around here a lot of goats are traded at auction. I know two brokers who buy large numbers of goats at auction, and who haul them all down South to Boston or NYC to sell them to butchers.

Your vet told you from a description(he didn't even look at them??) that they had CAE and to put them down?? And this same vet advised NOT testing the rest of the herd?? Sounds like very bad advice to me.
Kuddos to him for advising you not to buy at auction, but I can't agree with him on anything else.
If your(maybe) seeing such virulent CAE in your herd, you would certainly not get all negatives if you tested.
Maybe your goats did have CAE, but with all the symptomatic goats I have seen, I've never seen anything like you described. The swollen knees sure, but not the rest. I sure would have wanted to *know* what I was dealing with. Pulling blood before you put them down and sending it in would have helped clear it up some anyway.

jBlaze · #40 02/29/08, 10:33 PM

Just to clarify my statements; I do not thihnk it is irresponsible to butcher a pos animal. That is so much better than selling it to some irresponsible enough to raise on prevention! I don't want any positives, and i think it s highly unethical to sell them to someone who does not know how to keep it from spreading.
If your goat tests positive and you don't feel like you wnat to deal with prevention, then having her for dinner is a good option. If you feel that you can handle prevention, then great!