Quad kids, nanny died

ozark_jewels · #21 02/06/08, 02:25 PM

I would hesitate to buy milk from a dairy unless I had seen negative Johnnes tests as Susanne points out. Most family milkers are just fine and healthy so if you know of someone you *trust* with home milk cows........I would choose that direction.

Zookeeper · #22 02/06/08, 02:33 PM

Okay, I will get them on milk from the store. At least for now. I don't have a fresh goat's milk supply readily available except what I can get from my other nanny...hopefully she'll make enough extra to supplement the cow's milk and maybe that will help.

What are the CMPK injections? The lady who raised these goats came over and tried to help us. She's an experienced breeder of Nubians (I thought) plus she's an RN but she didn't mention this to us. Neither did the vet. She gave us the oral calcium paste. She said maybe the doe needed IV fluids but by the time we decided to try that, she was gone.

It was also my understanding that she feeds her goats *some* alfalfa hay for a treat, but I didn't think they needed tons of it for calcium...I am just sick to know that this may have been something very preventable.

I am also going to get alfalfa pellets for our other nursing nanny. I don't readily know where to get alfalfa hay but I'll start checking into that.

Anything else I need to do right away???

Thank you so much for all the advice. I had read this BB and others before getting goats to try and learn what I could, but I feel like I have just really screwed up.

Now I am trying to learn as much as I can as fast as I can, so I can keep the ones I have healthy. I am so glad I can come here and "meet" so many people who are experienced with this. I just don't want to lose any more animals because I am learning by trial and error if you KWIM.

fishhead · #23 02/06/08, 02:39 PM

Don't be too hard on yourself.

If you get alfalfa pellets watch for dust. Mine wouldn't eat it if it was the least bit dusty and I ended up throwing lots of it to the cottontails. I solved it by pouring it down a trough made from 1/8" screen. The dust would fall out before it made it to the bucket on the other end. Now they eat almost 100% of the pellets I keep out for them.

I've seen CMPK on the shelf at the farm store.

trappmountain · #24 02/06/08, 02:51 PM

I am sorry to hear you lost one. Good luck with the other 3. I have never bred so I can't help you with advice on that. They sure are beautiful!

susanne · #25 02/06/08, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zookeeper

What are the CMPK injections?

your vet should know

http://www.drugs.com/vet/amtech-cmpk-injection.html

dkdairygoats · #26 02/06/08, 03:09 PM

Every breeder does things differently. You may think you are "experienced" but it seems like the longer you have animals the less you really know. In other words...I wouldn't blame the vet or the breeder. The breeder may never have had a problem with raising goats her way. The vet just may not know much about goats as a species. Yes, it is a preventable problem but sometimes you can prevent and prevent and still run into problems. Don't be too hard on yourself, just remember and learn from it.

Sweet Goats · #27 02/06/08, 05:15 PM

I am not going to comment on the feeding of the babies.
I am so sorry for your loss. They are ALL just adorable. The Mom looks beautiful and very happy. I will say (sorry) I agree with the Hypocalcemia.
The best thing you can get from this is to research and know for the next time. Just do not let that beautiful doe die in vain.

fcnubian · #28 02/06/08, 09:15 PM

So sorry you lost her. I agree with everyone else on the Hypocalcemia.

On the kids, if I dont have goats milk availabe I use cows milk from the store. I refuse to use milk replacer. I have read that too many people had kids die and I am not willing to take that chance.

Goodluck with the remaining kids.

goatkid · #29 02/07/08, 01:29 AM

When I don't have enough goat milk for my bottle babies, I mix what goat milk I have with whole cow's milk from the store. You might even want to check with your store's dairy manager to see if they have any at the expiration date they can sell you for less. If You get more than you need right away, it can be frozen. We lost several kids our first year in goats by feeding replacer. Since then, I've used goat or cow's milk and have not lost a bottle baby, except for one with birth defects.
As for your doe, I, too would guess it was hypocalcemia.Your vet could have ruled out a uterine tear or infection through necropsy. My vet explained it this way. Goats are meant to have twins or maybe triplets, but not litters of 4 or 5 kids. When they do, it's hard on them. That many kids can deplete their calcium and in having quads, they also lose lots of fluids. With hypocalcemia, oral calcium isn't sufficient. They need the calcium by injection. Some vets will do it IV. My vet does it subQ and has me do it that way. The best injectable calcium to use is either CMPK or Norcalciphos. These are prescription. In a bind, if you are waiting on your vet, most feed stores have a form of injectable calcium for cattle.
Don't beat up on yourself. After sucessfully treating milk fever three times, I lost a doe to it last year, four days after she had quads. The third day after she freshened, she went off her grain and had less milk. I took her temperature and it was normal (there is usually a low temperature with milk fever), so I gave some oral calcium and B complex vitamins. When I returned from work that evening, she was noticibly sicker and her temp was only 98. I immediately injected Norcalciphos. Rather than recovering, she died early the next morning. She may have made it if I'd given her the injection in the morning, but I'll never know for sure. Her dam and half sister succumbed to milk fever, so there was a biological predisposition to it in her family. What I learned from all this is: if a doe has 4 or more kids,or even triplets and seems worn out from it, I'll give the Norcalciphos before she gets sick. If a doe does get sick, all her kids need to come off her and she isn't to be milked until she's over the milk fever because milking her will further deplete her calcium. Any time a goat is off, I take their temperature. I've also learned that alfalfa hay or pellets as the main part of the diet is crucial for does in late pregnancy and while lactating.
Sorry you lost her. I'm glad you still have three kids and that two are does. I wish you and your goats the best.

Cat · #30 02/07/08, 01:51 AM

How much are you feeding the kids? How many times a day?

susanne · #31 02/07/08, 07:16 AM

good post goatkid.

Lizzieag · #32 02/07/08, 04:32 PM

I just had a goat deliver quads too. She got the shakes right after birth and was pretty depressed looking. I was able to get tums, covered in Molasses down her and that really helped her. Unfortunately I lost one of the babies anyway. I was supplementing with milk replacer and mom was nursing them too. Sometimes you just don't have any idea why a kids or a doe dies. So much can go wrong and there is just only so much you can do.

moonspinner · #33 02/07/08, 04:55 PM

Did these kids nurse from mom at all and get colostrum?
Also, when was the pic of your doe taken? She looks kind of thin there. I do agree - I would tend to think she didn't get enough proper nutrition to get her through a quad birth.
So sorry you lost both her and the boy.

Zookeeper · #34 02/08/08, 07:21 AM

Oh no...that picture was taken early on...she was huge in the end (not fat...just big with kids).

The kids did get her colostrum for the first day...mostly it had to be milked from her and bottle-fed to them, some tube fed.

MamaDee · #35 02/08/08, 08:15 AM

It was also my understanding that she feeds her goats *some* alfalfa hay for a treat, but I didn't think they needed tons of it for calcium...I am just sick to know that this may have been something very preventable>>>

Please don't beat yourself up. You did more than most would or could have. I know we couldn't afford to have a vet come out to our place. As for the alfalfa.....you can read two different websites and get two different opinions as to how to feed does in the later stages of pregnancy. So how's a newbie supposed to know? One says feed more alfalfa to build up alfalfa stores. The other says to acutally restrict alfalfa in later pregnancy--something about helping the doe to use her own reserves or some such thing? I personally don't do that. We increased alfalfa (although they all get it--not free choice b/c it's too expensive around here) but I make sure my bred girls get free choice or pretty close to it in the last 100 days.

But like I said, with so much conflicting advice--really how's a new person supposed to know. One way is the hard way--experience. We've been there too and it's no fun. Luckily, we have lots of great folks on here with lots of experience so hopefully our painful ones are fewer and farther in between. Hugs to you. Learn from it what you can and keep on plugging away at it.

Also, IMHO, if you can't get or can't afford goat's milk or cow's milk for the babies....you can always get what you can and mix it half and half or something with the replacer. Better than all replacer. I do use replacer and haven't had any issues, but I watch my kids VERY closely and try to mix it with fresh goats milk or cow's milk. Just don't make big changes fast. If you're mixing 50/50, keep it at that and if you need to make changes, do it over a few days. I know people here hate replacer......but I know some use it with success. Just be careful. Just my 02 on that issue.

Anyway, you did what you could. You should feel good about that. Now focus on those cute babies.

Dee

susanne · #36 02/08/08, 08:40 AM

how are the kids doing this morning?

Zookeeper · #37 02/08/08, 04:39 PM

Well, I still have 3, so that's a good start

One of the does is acting a little differently, laying in her shelter by herself a lot, not eating as well as she was, but she has been doing that since last night and at least it has not gotten any worse...I talked to the vet this a.m., thought about taking her in but really the vet (who also has goats) said there wasn't a whole lot she could do, except "look at her", take her temp., etc., basically to make me feel better...she really didn't know why the buckling died...just that we are doing all the right things at this point and that unfortunately, sometimes they do die and there really are no black and white answers...she said the only things that she would have wanted to rule out, she knows my goats don't have because of where they came from and we just very recently acquired them.

So...hangin' in there...