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NAIS-Hazy..got me thinking
NAIS...I was wondering whats the deal this this? What is it all about? I looked it up and it doesn't seem any different than what us in Canada have to do with our sheep, and Cattle.
All sheep have to have pink ear tags with 9 #'s. The Tags are registered to the farmer, the sheep have to have tags to go to shows, sales, leaving the property etc. Cattle need the barcode tags...same thing. This is to do tracebacks of the animal, find out where it came from, where it is, and then the animals is registered. Is this what the NAIS is trying to do? We are surprised nothing like this has been done for Goats right now, buts its a matter of time we think. I don't want to state my position...but we are doing and have been doing this, nothing much we can do...we still show, and we ship to sale barns, private sales and we take some to the slaughter house all of which need these tags. Melissa I just was wondering what its all about! |
Expansion of existing premise ID system to all livestock and all states. The paranoia over it is incredible. I've had a premise ID and had to tag my outgoing livestock for a decade - and the world hasn't stopped spinning. Much ado about nothing. Watching the paranoia is entertaining though. Yawn.
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Melissa, reports from people that actually have seen the program work, like you, are hurting the efforts of those that have worked very hard to whip up the emotions of those that don't know what to think about NAIS. I've heard antiNAIS folks make wild claims about satellites tracking out tagged animals and that somehow Monsanto is benefiting from this and that the Big Guys (whoever they are) are benefiting and that it will force out the little guy. The biggest problem for the antiNAIS splinter group is that individual states are getting it going and it is running smoothly. Just as Canada and Australia have similar programs that after initial glitches are running smoothly, serve as examples that the boogie man doesn't exist.
People have listed their farms by postal address, Section numbers and several other numbering systems. A premise number isn't any different, just easier to work with when checking proximity to other farms in the event of a disease outbreak. |
Doc...this is exactly what I was thinking...whats the big deal? We have to tag and keep records of everything here in Canada.
Melissa |
haypoint...Thanks!
It is working fine in Canada sure there are the sh*tty points like, the cost of the tags, the work involved but you know what for what its worth, we could always scratch it and not farm....thats the other side of the matter. We like farming to much, so we are going to follow the rules regardless(well to a limit) I work at a feed store, we sell these tags and I have to fill out the forms for some farmers, and sign etc. There is no way for me or anyone else that sees these pages to know how many cattle, sheep, goats are on this persons farm just by buyign the tags. I know our cows at home don't have bar code tags, but thats because they aren't leaving, and only get tagged when shiped or slaughtered. Someone might come in for 10 tags, those might be just for 10 steers they are shipping tomorrow etc. There still could be 100 more cows at home. We don't know and never will! I don't know what the big deal is...my first impression is....if you don't want to register your animals...what are you hiding? Not that everyone is but.....! I think I'm going to go and look more up on NAIS! |
I got a question....
When I got my premise ID and the scrapie number (had to for showing.) They sent me the ear tags with INCRNA## (#= numbers) Can I tattoo the goats instead of tagging them. Like putting INCR in one ear, NA## in the other...? My show does are all tattooed with the right stuff for ADGA. I am wanting to know if I can do the same with my pygmys and any nubian wethers I sell. |
fcnubian....I don't know??? Good Question! Here in Canada we don't have the scrapie Tags...yet(I think its a matter of time) And our tags are different. Is there someone you could call...like an ag Rep? I know in Ontario we can call the OMAF (Ontario Ministry of Agriculture and Food) buildings or CFIA (canadian Food inspection agency)
Sorry, Can't help you with that one! |
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And be sure to wear your tinfoil hat! |
Even if my other stock isn't registered I can still go the tattoo route? My pygmys are just pets.
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Oh and definately understand the ripped ears....I have seen goats rip tags out to.
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Melissa,
That is part of the NAIS program, but not all of it. The NAIS program goes much deeper. It gives away the right to our animals. They reserve the right to confiscate or kill animals at their discression without any proof they are sick or even exposed to any disease. The program possibly clouds the ownership of the land that is registered (at least that's what a local attorney claims). There are lots of fines and punishments involved that are not publicly announced. They want us to sign up on the program and they haven't even finalized the rules to it yet. To many of us that is like signing a blank check and letting them fill in the rules when they decide what they want them to be. I have no idea how anyone could want to sign up for something that open ended. Who knows what "rules" they might end up enforcing some day. :shrug: |
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Ok thanks for the replies! :)
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You guys who support all the government regulations(interference) may not realize that you are just as incomprehensable to us as we seem to be to you. We don't seem to be quite so quick to start trotting out the rude names and ridicule("tin foil hat group", etc.)....but maybe thats just my perspective. :shrug:
No, I don't believe that the government is "for the people" anymore...and hasn't been for a long time. No, I do NOT believe these laws they are trying to pass are for our own good. No, I will not comply. If that makes me a Tin Foil Hatter......please pass the hatrack, I better stock up. :rolleyes: We are a nation of people who seem to no longer have any concept of personal responsability. So the government is stepping in to save us from ourselves and from our own stupidity. And as they do so, we will lose liberties. Do I blame them?? No. The fault lies with us. |
That was very well said Emily and I agree 100%.
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is there a good website about nais?
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Sure it doesn't sound bad for larger animals, but they want every chicken and small animal id-ed! Think of it!
I agree with Emily 100% of the way! Do you wanna know why we arn't aloud to sell raw milk? Come on do you really think they want you to be safe? NO! they want their cut of the milk! Wouldn't you? So when some one comes in selling raw milk that is lost money to them! |
what you will find here has lots of facts, articles and discussion against nais.
http://nonais.org/ There are lots of yahoo groups and websites that have popped up since this has hit the public media. Google and lots of reading will help you understand, I am sure. I agree with Emily 100%, and I will promise not to let my Irish get up on this one, I get pretty irate over it. My main problem is, I do not want to have that GPS located land ID and a cancer causing chip in my goats. I don't want to report to the gov every time my animals move, wonder off the land or are eaten. NONE of the business. We have no privacy any more, and that is one thing I value very highly. That is why I am in the middle of acreage, so I can have privacy and be left alone. |
What's the purpose?
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here is the site with real facts.
http://animalid.aphis.usda.gov/nais/index.shtml this needs to be read first and then go to http://nonais.org/ |
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I will not sign up for any program that is open ended. I will not sign up for any program when a lawyer tells me it will cloud ownership of my property. I will not sign up for any program that gives someone else the power to confiscate or kill my animals if someone in the next town has a sick animal. I will not sign up for any program that will double or triple the cost of my production. I will not give that kind of power over me and my animals to strangers. You can deny all of the above, but as long as there is any doubt at all about the future of NAIS and the power they will weld, I will not register my place. One way our food supply could be safer would be to monitor the imports that have proven to be unsafe. That is not being done. We have a good system in place now. I see no reason to abandon it and put NAIS in place. |
Some of the earliest complaints on the NAIS front had to deal with clouding property ownership/rights. They REALLY objected to the term "stakeholder" vs. property owner!
The other issue that I've seen that seems fairly relevant to the discussion is that they claim NAIS is to protect us from illness but then they went ahead and re-opened the Canada/US border to livestock FOR COMMERCE, DESPITE NEW reports of BSE (mad cow) in Canadian beef cattle. Things that make you go "Hmmmm..." |
Another thing that makes you go "Hmmmm..." :
They say they are not going to tag animals that never leave a property. But if another animal, in another town, get an airborne illness, my tagged animals can be destroyed. If there are airborne illnesses that can travel from area to area, why wouldn't they tag all animals, regardless if they leave a property or not. Couldn't the animals that never leave, still contaminate other animals, if the disease is airborne? Seems to me, that they aren't interested in "non moving" animals for another reason. For me, there are mutiple questions that remain unanswered. I have been to the meetings, I have read and studied. Something is "up" with it, something is wrong with it, and I'm not putting myself on the block. |
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We had another case of mad cow!?!?!?! :shrug: How come I never heard of this! Man you know it is getting bad when people in the country don't even know what is going on! :flame: |
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HOLD ON A SEC!!!!
Its going a bit in the wrong direction....The Canada/US boarder issue is a very touchy subject for everyone involved but..... HAZY Quote:
Also I don't know if anyone has even looked or cared about but the beef markets in Canada are completely down the tubes...Look at Ontario's Markets: 77 cents/lb....something still isn't right??? WE aren't making anymoney!! I don't know what else to say about the NAIS as its not an issue with me...but I will keep looking up info. Melissa |
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Every beef farmer is quiting that I know. It costs to much to keep them they are loosing money every sale barn trip they make. I know some good friends of ours are cutting down to 2 cows and a bull. They normally had 20+ breeding cows, but it was costing to so much they are just going to keep the 2 for their use. Cull cows are another story! Well the just of the cows that come in our sale barn, are really just cows that are still good but the farmers need room so they sell the extra cows. Anyways the cows I have sold (my uncles. I sell them and make a % from it) I was lucky to get .19 a pound! And these are but 1,500 pound cows in good weight! The last cow I sold we got a check for $258.00 after all the fees we got $214.18!!!! Now 2 years ago that check would be times by 5!!! thats right! Cull cows were sellng for a 1,000!! New born bulls were worth $200+ and week old hiefers would bring $750-900!!! Now back to NAIS |
Nais sounds like a good idea and if it could be trusted to operate wihin the boundaries of common sense it would be fine. but... what is common sense to you may not be common sense to somebody else. If "the government" had shown some sense to me in there operation of government agencies and enforcement of law I might be a willing participant. but we have for example the IRS which is a stupid bohemoth of an agency that just keeps having to tack on more and more complicated rules to cover all the possible scenarios and innocent people get caught in the crossfire and red tape. My brother is on some state assistance due to congenital disability, the ridiculous hoops and rules that are, I am sure, in theory quite practical,that are in reality, assanine. I wouldn't expect an entity like NAIS to be any better.
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OK, This is just my $0.02 being a Canadian farm girl and all.
I personally don't see what the big deal is. In Canada we have a system in place for our cattle and have for a while. And it appears to be working. Yes, they find BSE animals BUT there is a system in place for traceability so those animals, and any animals that may also be affected don't make it into our food chain. I'd much prefer that than having no system in place and flying by the seat of our pants. Food safety and traceability are major concerns when it comes to ensuring consumers that our food supply, our livestock, our ag industry are SAFE. It tells them that we are taking responsibility as livestock owners. We have nothing to hide. So we have to tag our animals. Whoopedydo. Big deal. Most people go to the trouble of applying a tag or tattoo for animal identification as it is. So what if its a standardized government tag? Who else is going to have the resources to implement a nationwide program to safeguard our food supply? We also have a premise ID# and tattoo all of our pigs with it prior to shipping them for slaughter. I've been told this isn't mandatory for a small producer but ya know what? We do it anyway. I want my customers to know that we have nothing to hide and that their pork chop can be traced back to the litter and I know everything that has gone into that pig in its lifetime. Goats and sheep are not far behind. They are actually advertising the job position for the National Sheep and Goat ID Coordinator at the moment. Tag tests have been performed and its only a matter of time. I personally don't have the time or inclination to stress over worrying about hidden agendas or people "tracking my animals via satellite". Even if they wanted to I don't think I'd care much. I am sure that is really high on their priority list. LOL :) |
Exactly Tam....
I guess its easy for us to say...being as we have this ID method in place for our cattle, and sheep (CSIP). I think its best for us to go along with it, and follow as you wish, or not its totally up to you! Melissa |
I don't have an issue with compliance for large-scale commercial food producers having to track their food (don't they already do that???), but when I have to report that my neighbor's horse escaped from his crappy fence and wandered over here or risk fines, that is a bit much. And if I have to file a report to trail ride down a public trail that borders my land, what good will it do? Do all the folks that mush their dogs down that trail and cross 1' onto my property have to file the same report? GoodNESS! And I'm sure as heck not spending money to tag meat chickens that are slaughtered within a few months of hatching, whether they go in my freezer or my friend's freezer! Silly, silly, time & money wasting!
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DocM - many people stop posting on forums such as this because they are ridiculed by folks like you. Please, keep it factual and avoid the personal attacks. Someone might take you seriously that way!
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I don't trust the government or private enterprise for that matter to protect the information in the databases. If you doubt what I say - read about the VA's losses of information on Veterans.
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Do people really believe this stuff "I don't have an issue with compliance for large-scale commercial food producers having to track their food (don't they already do that???), but when I have to report that my neighbor's horse escaped from his crappy fence and wandered over here or risk fines, that is a bit much. And if I have to file a report to trail ride down a public trail that borders my land, what good will it do? Do all the folks that mush their dogs down that trail and cross 1' onto my property have to file the same report? GoodNESS! And I'm sure as heck not spending money to tag meat chickens that are slaughtered within a few months of hatching, whether they go in my freezer or my friend's freezer! Silly, silly, time & money wasting!"
It seems every thread on NAIS has one or two boogy man government out to get you, I have to tag my chickens and report a lost horse authors. The antiNAIS folks are free to spread this trash, but I'm suprised by the number that readily eat it up. |
DocM - I never got worked up about NAIS nor advocated killing anyone. Don't paint with such a broad brush, then maybe you won't feel so chastised. Funny, since you were chastising everyone else with an opposing view AND calling them names. :eyeroll:
Haypoint, the early issues of NAIS were very vague and they still remain vague in some parts. That is probably where most people are concerned, even those that aren't part of the "tin foil hat" committee. Yes, there were drafts that said you'd have to report EVERY MOVEMENT of your animals, even if it wasn't intentional AND your neighbor, who doesn't even own those animals, has to report them if they come onto HIS property! Is it still in there this way? I dunno. I already posted my concerns, coming from my background as a commercial real estate appraiser & consultant/economist, what it could do to property values as a results of the lack of definition with regard to the premise ID and what it does to limit property rights. On the issue of "Stakeholder", that was in early versions too. I'm not sure if it's still in there or not. |
i read the earlier version from NAIS. i can not remember that there was anything that said, the neighbor has to report if an animal comes over to his fence.
truth is, vet's have to report because they are officials for the government. most of the things are made up. there was a post just recently where the poster claimed tenesse has banned private sale from goat and sheep. outrages you think? if you look it up, it only says you have to have the scrapie id in ears for the animals if they go to the auction. because of so much hype and misinformation, a lot of energy get lost that could be used to make a good plan :rolleyes: |
ok sorry guys, for anyone who was offeneded. I think I have a good idea what its all about...and abit more knowledge of peoples understandings of the issue!
Sorry for causing a bit of an uproar! Melissa |
I have nothing against any of you who want to go full force and sign up today for NAIS. More power to you and I wish you well.
But I will speak for me only, when I say it will never happen here. I could give a care less about goat shows, or papered animals, or placing 1st prize in the county fair, or letting my kid or grandkid have a winning 4H project. I could also care less about making 50 grand profit on my farm operation. I'm talking about feeding my family. And that's where NAIS has crossed the line. There are too many unanswered questions or answers that have changed 20 times, for me to sign up....when you can't take it back. When you do it, you are signed up, period, it's done....no take backs. And no one is taking the right away for me to feed my family, on my land, that I pay for, with interest. And in the process of me feeding my family, if I have a few too many bucklings or roosters or rams or boars and I sell them to joe blow across the street....guess what, that's my business too. It will remain my business. Even if I go along with the issue that NAIS won't bother those or us who agree not to ever sell again and only eat what we produce....what guarantee comes with that. NONE! They can change it, just as they have changed everything else about it. But it's too late then. My right to feed my family is gone forever, with the stoke of a pen from someone who probably thinks meat for the family comes wrapped up in plastic from the Kroger's meat counter. I won't do it, now , later, never! If it means I never buy another animal that has a set of papers with it, even a dog......if it means never joining another group, club or event.......if it means cancelling all animal related catalogs, magazines, flyers, products and getting them only with cash from my supportive local feed store.....if it means only doing business with friends that I know agree with me totally on this issue......if it means changing my livestock around to only those who can, for the most part, live off my land....then so be it. I won't sell anymore if that's the law...but I won't stop feeding my family here, I won't ever tag a single thing, I won't register my property with anyone, and if they ever change that part of it, then I guess I'll go to jail, because I will keep doing it until they do throw me in jail. And for those who think we who are anti-Nais are a small majority, I will tell you I can say, I am almost certain, you are wrong. The fact is, most don't even know of it yet. Alot of farmers out there, without internet, neighbors or any other means of hearing about it. Wait til they all find out. I have never once told someone with livestock about NAIS, who doesn't know, and heard anything but a few choice words that cannot be expressed here. And no long explanations, just the simple...it will be law that you must register your property and tag your animals with the government, if you sell anything. With that said, hope you all have a great day, not trying to be argumentative but had to speak my piece. :) |
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