how do you supplement copper? and where do you get it?

BlueHeronFarm · #41 01/11/08, 08:28 AM

Liese - there is a lot of research on copper oxide rods and their safety and efficacy in goats and sheep when used for parasite control. You can google those terms to see more.

The safety findings can be transferred, obviously, to using the rods for copper deficiencies. The efficacy - well - I am not sure how many studies have been done. I can start looking on the interwebs.

I can tell you that have seen great results in my herd, and have seen remarkable before and after photos from others, too.

BlueHeronFarm · #42 01/11/08, 08:30 AM

Oh - and the repackaging of the boluses does take about a half hour or so for my 17 goat herd - but I make extras that can be used the next time - 5 to 6 months later. It's not that much work when you space it out over the time it lasts.

Mrs. Jo · #43 01/11/08, 10:29 AM

Well. look. There is only slightly more evidence to suggest that bolusing is better than using copper sulfate.
There is lots of evidence to suggest that less bolusing toxicity happens compared to copper sulfate.

I've used the copper sulfate drench on more than 20 animals (over the last 6 1/2 years) and this is the only way I would recommend copper sulfate to be used. (Other than what is in loose minerals, that is.) I've never poisoned anything with it and I don't intend to and I would be horrified if somebody did. It is meant to be used infrequently on individual goats. Not for large herds and not regularly.

What you are asking is a lot to prove. A lot of the better/not better issues depends on HOW you are using copper sulfate in your herds. Try looking for research- other than that at the saanendoah site- and you will see some studies that suggest that using copper sulfate is better than boluses. (salt insititute) A study is a study, it doesn't prove much.

Don't believe everything you read in Colby's books. I have heard of at least 7 poisonings because of her advice about copper sulfate. Her advice might work for folks in Australia, but that does not mean it's germaine for us here in the u.s. I'm frankly dubious that she has only heard of One case of poisoning from copper sulfate. ??? (I've been in goats for 7 years and I've heard of more than a dozen, all cs issues.) It makes one vary wary about recommending it to others without a lot of warnings to go along with it.

If I lived in texas, I would be using a bolus for our goats for sure. It's what other texans find work for them, and it's what they recommend for others.

dezeeuwgoats · #44 01/11/08, 11:01 AM

Ok. I have a question. What are the signs of copper poisoning?

Niki

Alice In TX/MO · #45 01/11/08, 12:27 PM

I think this thread is turning into a ----ing match instead of answering the original question.

I'm through. I answered the question.

deafgoatlady · #46 01/11/08, 12:31 PM

I know how u feel Rose.. I just let it go.. It is up to poeple. Everyone have their choice and it is up to them. We cant just push them.. I know.. Like I said I feel more safe to use the drench. If u feel safe giving the goat peanut butter and it is fine with me.. I dont care becuz as long u are taking care of ur goats. And it is fine and it works for u..

Mrs. Jo · #47 01/11/08, 01:00 PM

And I'm telling you. You can't know if your goats are going to keel over tomorrow or the next month if you have given them too much. There is no way to tell if you are giving them too much, except when they are dead and you send the liver in to be analyzed. Blood tests are not accurate measures of how much copper is in them and the animals look and act normally right up until they die.

Why do you think we are cautious about this? Is it because there have been no studies about this before? And because we don't want people to poison their goats with it? (It has- by the way...)

No bitching intended on my part. I know the lady who made this method up (1 % drench) and she has been in goats and sheep for more than 40 years and she is also very cautious about it. I feel confident about using it in most cases, but I don't recommend it universally, nor do I say it's safe as bolusing.

It's too bad you don't like what I'm saying. I don't like to rain on your parade either, but some cautions are in order here for those people who are going to read this and think it's a great idea.

You can't make an informed choice if you don't know all the facts and I don't think anyone knows all the facts about this yet.

Rose- you should really, really try to study up on it. And reading Colby's book isn't studying up on it. That is very biased information. Most vet's in Australia do not accept her views on copper. Of course, I was so surprised when I heard about that. We don't really hear about what her peers think of her, do we?

BlueHeronFarm · #48 01/11/08, 01:08 PM

Actually, deafgoatlady, you said it was better than bolusing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafgoatlady

And it is very very safe and it is actually better than bolusing.

I think that's where the thread devolved a little. You are absolutely right - everyone has to make their own decisions. I think DocM and others get a little concerned when statements like the above are presented as fact with no real science to back them up.

No one is telling you or Rose you are doing it wrong, so I would hope you can both take from the thread what you care to and just pass on the rest. I do not think it is personal, you guys -- I think people were trying to clarify that your statement may not be a fact, but rather your opinion to which you are entitled.

Let's all take a deep breath and let it go.

cathleenc · #49 01/11/08, 01:13 PM

I know this thread has gotten a bit heated but at the center of it I do see the best discussion I've yet seen about the best ways to administer copper or not. I appreciate the discussion and the input - and I regret any stepped on toes or feelings that might have come as a result of it.

I'm back to my original vascilation about whether to do something or not.... gosh, how I wish you could test/monitor copper levels in goats without doing a liver sample!

I think the 'look at goats in your area & learn what the owners are doing' advice is very good. I called yet another dairy goat herd owner who lives within 10 miles of my home/farm - and she, too, does nothing about copper and worries not at all about copper. That makes 2 thriving goat dairy herds, each established over 10 years, who do nothing bout copper other than a good mixed mineral mix. Yet I know, from soil samples, that we have very low copper reserves in our area soil. Oh so confusing.

The goat with the problems was purchased maybe 100 miles away.... perhaps they have different copper issues/needs there. I just don't know....

Mostly, thank you to everyone for the input. Having a public discussion (and even heated discussion) is so much more informative than having no discussion.

Cathy

BlueHeronFarm · #50 01/11/08, 01:14 PM

Here is an interesting study. I think it is well documented that goats are less susceptible to copper toxicity than sheep, so read with a critical eye, but it is worth a read, nonetheless.
http://www.kinne.net/cu-tox.htm

An excerpt:
Effects of Daily Oral Administration of Copper to Goats, Acta Veterinaria Scandinavica, 1978, 19: 4, 561-568; 10 ref., points to the variability in the goats' susceptibility to copper. Three goats were given copper sulfate solution orally for 56-113 days. One goat accumulated substantial amounts of copper in the liver, developed two separate hemolytic crises and died. The two other goats only showed an increase in copper before they were killed. The results showed that the goats were susceptible to different degrees of repeated copper dosing and that while the one goat was similar in copper susceptibility to sheep, the other two were more resistant.

susanne · #51 01/11/08, 01:17 PM

this is from the goat medicine book sherman/smith
http://books.google.com/books?id=nWC...99nRaF_ccr21Jo

deafgoatlady · #52 01/11/08, 01:22 PM

cathleec, My mother in law and I havent use copper for years. I didnt even realize that my black goats needed more copper. I couldnt believe it until last year. I learned a lot more thru GW. And So i told my friend I dont like the idea of bolusing. Becuz that is my prefernce.. U know. I rather to use drench becuz I FEEL that it is much safer than bolusing. That is my perference. U know. And I tried that and it works GREAT! I like it how it works. And It did help a lot. I am happy with my result. But surprisely my mother in law STILL wont feed her goats loose minerals. I dont know why. No wonder why her goats's feet is weird. I tried to explain but like I said everyone have their choice. So I let her go and let her figure out. It is sad. I do worry about her goats but it is not up to me..

susanne · #53 01/11/08, 01:55 PM

somebody can use what ever their preference is and/or what he/she feels is right.
it is wrong to make statements like "this is much safer than the other method"
if there is no proof of it.
i give bolus to my goats because it works for my farm. anybody wants to have a look at my animals can go to my website. that they are not deficient in copper is most obvious on my black animals.
here is another picture from my black buck that was taken last week.
how do you supplement copper? and where do you get it? - Goats

how do you supplement copper? and where do you get it? - Goats

Mrs. Jo · #54 01/11/08, 02:43 PM

Cathy-Wisconsin and MN are very different from texas, california, and most other southern states. We actually have different soils up here so this is affects how our minerals are being used in the body. Down in texas they have what are called antagonists in the soils, and these actually leach copper out of the body, or bind it up so it can't be used by the body. We don't really have anything like that up here. I know lots of herds around here just use a minerals mix and kelp and that's all they need. It would be unusual to see severe copper related problems in our animals up here. I myself see color fading, blacks bleaching out to blond, missing hair, high worm burdens in some animals, decreased calcium absorption, but I've never seen a case of skeletal deformity, and what I have seen are considered to be mild symptoms. Mild symptoms can most safely be fixed by switching minerals or adding kelp to their diet.

One major problem with that kinne article is that they aren't saying how much copper is in that "oral dose." A gram? 5 grams? half a cup?
Is it more than what a goat licks up in a mineral mix? I haven't been able to find the original research about that study, but I am interested in knowing how much they actually used and where they were and what kind of condition the goats were in....I could ask lots of questions about that...

hoofinitnorth · #55 01/12/08, 03:38 PM

Just a couple of helpful points - you CAN buy boluses in smaller sizes but you have to look outside US borders (at least as far as I've found). A local mentor purchased 4-gram Cu boluses that contain 3.7 grams copper - the perfect amount for our adult NDs. She bought them from the UK, FarmRight, I think. I will be ordering my own since I already used the ones I bought from her for my does and still need to do my bucks. I need to have my own supply on-hand anyway.

When you have a goat die, it is VERY HELPFUL to have a necropsy done or at LEAST have a liver biopsy and bloodwork done for mineral levels. The aforementioned mentor is having those run on a doe she recently lost to peritonitis (uterus punctured during difficult presentation/delivery of a large buckling in triplets). Since my goats all came from her herd, I am waiting with baited breath to hear the results of these tests. So it's not just you that benefits from these studies, but everyone around you that keeps their herds similarly. Please consider this when you have a goat die, as it is your only opportunity, in some cases, to get the information so valuable to your management and your future herd health. One expenditure like this every couple of years is SOOOO worth it in the long run, even if you only maintain a small hobby herd.

cathleenc · #56 01/12/08, 03:52 PM

I 'think' I've come up with a plan.

1) do a 'pre-change' fecal test
GOAL: establish where the goats are in terms of parasite loads

2) see if I can get the calf starter with NO minerals mixed in, if not, start mixing my feed from scratch
* GOAL: get the goats to start eating more loose minerals and salt. I have a strong hunch that the calf starter is 'satisfying' their taste for minerals but not their needs.

3) bolus each goat ONCE soon after delivery (due in 2 weeks)
* GOAL: see what happens! Is there any significant change? Evaluate copper needs /strategy based on significant change.

4) get different, better loose minerals
*GOAL: find one that fits their tastes and needs since they don't readily eat the one I have (and I'm almost out)

4) do fecal testing regularly post-change
* GOAL: monitor effectiveness and change

susanne · #57 01/12/08, 05:24 PM

bolusing doesn't replace worming them first.
you can make a control study with one group of goats that will get bolus and a group that does not. both groups need to be wormed before the start. now you do fecals and see with group needs to be wormed more often.
but please make sure that you really are in a deficient area and that the animals need more copper than you can supply with their mineral salt.

Mrs. Jo · #58 01/12/08, 07:52 PM

Hmm, maybe switch minerals first? You may not need to bolus at all if you get a better mineral.