how do you supplement copper? and where do you get it?

hoofinitnorth · #21 01/10/08, 01:44 PM

I use various loose minerals (both in a feeder in their stalls and in their milkstand grain ration). I also bolus and when I did it a couple of weeks ago it was surprisingly easy BUT all 3 of my does have been done before and I think that helped as they were quite cooperative. Each boy will get a bolus this month. My goats get FANTASTIC quality hay and a good mix of different minerals but the older goats still show signs of mild deficiency, likely from a few years of NOT getting boluses (before I bought them and before Copper was understood to be a big deal for goats up here).

One thing I've noticed is that my adult buck LICKS HIS MINERAL CUP CLEAN every couple of days. The girls don't eat near as much as he does. I am glad he is eating the salted mineral so readily because it helps him drink water and stay hydrated but he just started doing this about 2 weeks ago and it threw me for a loop! His appetite's picked up considerably too. I suspect that this was triggered by the current pen breeding with one doe. I think his body just told him he needed more of everything.

Alice In TX/MO · #22 01/10/08, 01:52 PM

I use the copper sulfate crystals. I crush them, mix with peanut butter, squeeze a small amount on a cracker, fold the cracker, and feed each goat one per day. Each goat gets 1/8 tsp per day.

I keep a baggie with the peanut butter/copper sulfate mix and a box of crackers in the feed room. The corner of the baggie is cut off, so it's like a cake icing tube.

Of course, they also have their other snacks... Fritos, raisins, cookies, Doritoes. Just a couple each evening.

No, of course they aren't spoiled goats.

Mrs. Jo · #23 01/10/08, 02:33 PM

Just curious Rose, How long have you been doing the copper sulfate this way?
The reason I ask is that you are exceeding even Pat Colby's amounts that she recommends, and I think her recommendations are extreme especially for the u.s. (1 tsp of copper sulfate is nearly 4 grams!)

In general, I think if your goats need that much copper than you should move to bolusing, which is less toxic for the goats, longer lasting and easier on the human too.

With doses of copper sulfate this large how do you know when you tip the scale into copper poisoning? The margin for error is so small when dealing with copper sulfate.

DocM · #24 01/10/08, 02:37 PM

Loose minerals with a copper PPM of at least 1300, 1700 is better. Any of several brands will do, I use purina most often, but sweet lix also makes a good doe mineral mix. Ordering online is too expensive with shipping. For just copper supplementation, I use copper bolusing method outlined here:
http://www.u-sayranch.com/goats/copper.html

cathleenc · #25 01/10/08, 02:59 PM

I just got some kelp today and mixed it with the loose minerals I have on hand in hopes of getting my goats to eat more while I try to figure out my next move. No other brand of loose minerals to be found locally....

Noticed on one of the copper sites it mentions one potential deficiency indication as being patchy coats in saanens. This describes my saanen's coat to a 't' - patchy and uneven. I brush and brush her, hoping to dislodge the shoddy hair from pre-worming days, still patchy patchy patchy.

thanks!
my brain is whirling with ideas and questions.

Scrounger · #26 01/10/08, 03:27 PM

http://raglandmills.com/home.html

I use Ragland Mills 20% Goat Block. I could see a difference in my goats before the first block was gone. Good stuff.

hoofinitnorth · #27 01/10/08, 03:48 PM

Anyone here use ADM's Precise Quad Block?

deafgoatlady · #28 01/10/08, 04:49 PM

I use the copper sulfate. I MIX it with WATER... And drench it. I have directions how do that.. And it is very very safe and it is actually better than bolusing. Plus I cant bolus at all. It is hard for me do that. I am good at drench.. So. It works soo well for my goats. They look wonderful!

Alice In TX/MO · #29 01/10/08, 06:27 PM

The 1/8th tsp was the amount recommended on one of the goat websites recommended on this board. I'll have to look again.

I've been doing it since last spring. If I stop for a few weeks, like when we moved them from Missouri to Texas, then Pumpkin's color starts to fade.

I found this mention of the copper sulfate and Pat's recommendation:
"Pat Colbey gives her goats a tsp. of copper sulfate a week, run daily throught their feed, about 1/7 of a tsp. daily...she lives in a high ph area that is deficient on copper..."

What I'm doing is less. We are also very high ph here in Texas.

I'm afraid of bolusing. I may get to it some day, but my choking fear is too high right now.

Alice In TX/MO · #30 01/10/08, 06:59 PM

Deafgoatlady, could you post your recipe for copper sulfate drench, please?

Thank you.

Rose, aka Cole's Gran

deafgoatlady · #31 01/10/08, 07:09 PM

Okay Rose. I will do that. Give me few mins LOL. I put it up somewhere..

southerngurl · #32 01/10/08, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rose

The 1/8th tsp was the amount recommended on one of the goat websites recommended on this board. I'll have to look again.

I've been doing it since last spring. If I stop for a few weeks, like when we moved them from Missouri to Texas, then Pumpkin's color starts to fade.

I found this mention of the copper sulfate and Pat's recommendation:
"Pat Colbey gives her goats a tsp. of copper sulfate a week, run daily throught their feed, about 1/7 of a tsp. daily...she lives in a high ph area that is deficient on copper..."

What I'm doing is less. We are also very high ph here in Texas.

I'm afraid of bolusing. I may get to it some day, but my choking fear is too high right now.

Oh choking is no worry, you just use people size caplets. Their throats are much bigger than the pills.

deafgoatlady · #33 01/10/08, 07:19 PM

I got it!!! LOL.

1 tablespoon of copper sulfate crystal to 12 & 3/4 cups of water. I dissolve with warm water at first only then rest of the water is cold..

20 ml twice daily for per adult goats for 7 days.
REST for 7 days.
20 ml twice daily for per adults goats for 7 days.
REST for two weeks. 10 ml twice daily for 7 days.
After that Alternatively, when they are just starting to have that 'look' but aren't actually sick with deficiency, you can add 2 mls of solution to each gallon of drinking water for a week, alternate weeks, for 4-6 weeks.

DocM · #34 01/10/08, 07:40 PM

There's no evidence that drenching with copper sulphate is better than copper bolusing, and the only evidence provided in this thread is that "she can't bolus". It's really not that hard to do, and it only has to be done twice a year. The recipe above, on even a small herd, would relegate its effectiveness to "null" from the time standpoint alone. For those of us with a large herd, it's simply ridiculous. Use it if it's convenient for you, sure, but don't profess that it's better than bolusing - it isn't, or cattle producers would use that method - they don't.

And please don't mistake a protein block with a mineral supplement. They aren't the same thing.

Alice In TX/MO · #35 01/10/08, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocM

It's really not that hard to do, and it only has to be done twice a year. The recipe above, on even a small herd, would relegate its effectiveness to "null" from the time standpoint alone. For those of us with a large herd, it's simply ridiculous.

It is your opinion that it's not hard. Not everyone shares that opinion.

What is time effective for me to do with my herd is up to me.

Nobody is recommending drenching or copper sulfate in peanut butter for a large herd.

Many of us on this board have small herds. A hobby herd. A few goats for our own milk, cheese, etc.

The question that started this thread is "what do you do," not "what is the penultimate way to copper supplement?"

Those of us who answered differently are just as right in our answers as others. We answered _what we do_.

Thank you.

hoofinitnorth · #36 01/10/08, 11:49 PM

Rose, I like the bolus because it is long-acting/lasting and you only have to do it once every 5 months or so. I was pleasantly surprised at how easy it was to do and I did not have any issues at all with the goats appearing to choke. I used a calf balling gun, mostly just to hold the bolus and get it past the teeth until I was ready. It was awfully large (long) for my little goats but it did the trick. All my girls took it like pros and I didn't have any trouble - no one even tried to chew it! One girl got it a little too far forward but she just swallowed it down on her own!

Now that I've done it, I'm not afraid anymore! Maybe you could get someone to mentor you the first couple of times? It's really not that different from pilling a cat or dog and I do a LOT of that.

Alice In TX/MO · #37 01/11/08, 02:31 AM

According the the vets and feed store owners in two counties, we are the only dairy herd in the area. Gee, but I'd love to have a mentor who could show me some of this.

I'm having to teach the vets about FAMACHA, BoSe, and everything else.

DocM · #38 01/11/08, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rose

It is your opinion that it's not hard. Not everyone shares that opinion.

What is time effective for me to do with my herd is up to me.

Nobody is recommending drenching or copper sulfate in peanut butter for a large herd.

Many of us on this board have small herds. A hobby herd. A few goats for our own milk, cheese, etc.

The question that started this thread is "what do you do," not "what is the penultimate way to copper supplement?"

Those of us who answered differently are just as right in our answers as others. We answered _what we do_.

Thank you.

Oh, okay. So where's the evidence that copper sulfate is "better" than bolusing? Again, the only evidence given is that the poster couldn't bolus. That doesn't make her method better OR more effective. I'd rather be bluntly honest that consider that a lot of goats are going to still continue to be copper deficient using the drenching method. There are few "hobby" farmers that have the kind of time it's going to take to drench an entire herd - or a few goats - twice a day, and so they simply won't do it. If nothing else, use a loose mineral. At least the goats won't suffer. Are you aware of the way a goat's digestive system works when they ingest liquids vs. solids?

susanne · #39 01/11/08, 07:51 AM

i guess to make little ball with peanut butter and copper sulfate is not exactly a a time saving method

i understand the fear to hurt the goat and she might choke or even get the bolus in the lung.
i give bolus to my goats and have not mastered it with all of them yet. some need more than one capsule because the first one get chewed.

what count is the method that works on your farm and nothing else.

Liese · #40 01/11/08, 08:17 AM

Just to play devil's advocate here - taking apart the Coprasure calf bolus and repackage into smaller gelatins doesn't sound any less time consuming than the peanutbutter/sulfate method. Also I'd like to point out that only Deafgoatlady said drenching copper sulfate was better. Just so happens that yesterday I was talking with the mill owner and mentioned copper bolusing for goats - he was quite skeptical that this was safe and effective treatment but was open minded enough to say he'd look into it. Now there are a study that can be read on-line about bolusing lambs for parasite resistance, and then there's the Saanendoah site that everyone hauls out ad nausem but where else is there any evidence besides anecdotal? Remember now - this is the Devil's Advocate here so don't shoot!