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Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians
Susanne much more helpful advice for Heather would be to answer her.
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I did not ask the question about what should be done in this discussion.
I did not ask for advice on the matter.
I opened a discussion to learn, share, & find leads on more information.
If you don't like the information, you don't need to pick fights with everyone that chimes in, regardless of what they say. Why do you feel you must convince everyone that you are right & no one else could ever be (even if they happen to share some of the same opinions with you & no one ever implied you were wrong)?
I did not provide an opinion on the matter. Susanne did not provide an opinion on the matter. Yet you still insist upon posting as if we were ganging up on you & telling you you're wrong because you don't do it this way or that way.
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Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians
Karin who I adore, & with absolutely no disrespect is a book learned goat person
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You say you mean no disrespect but you constantly poo poo people when they talk about something they read in a book. It is clear you think that anyone that has learned from books must not have learned from real life. But you also apparently think anyone that has learned from real life but whose observations differ from your own, even if they were in countless controlled studies & not anecdotal guesses, must have learned wrong too. I don't know how anyone can learn anything by those standards.
Books are not evil, try reading one sometime, you might actually learn something & maybe one day you will understand it enough to converse intelligently on the topic, maybe even teach it to another willing listener in a manner that will be helpful to them.
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Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians
Seen her goats on her website or in person to know you want to follow her practices or because she has learned from the same exact books all vets & Dr. Shipka has?
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No one said they were following anyone’s practices.
I told you what little I know of Dr. Shipka's real, life-long experience and education, I didn't sweeten it up for you & pretend he's a goat guy because it would be easier for you to accept. I certainly wouldn’t believe everything said at one brief seminar no matter who was speaking. I told you what Dr. Shipka said & I gave you full disclosure that the evening's presentation was brief, general, & concentrated on beef cattle, even though we spoke specific to dairy goats afterward. Google Dr. Shipka on your own to find out more about his qualifications & experience. But better yet, since you think you’re so much better versed than Dr. Shipka, let's talk about your experience. You say you're a big show breeder with over 2 decades experience & you get all these great appraisal scores & milk yields. So, just how many champions have you bred (not bought)? How many of those high appraisal scores carry your herd name past 1 generation of someone else's breeding? Ever put your herd on 305-day DHI milk test? How many of the goats you bred have dairy stars, pluses, etc.? In short, what makes you an expert besides clicking time on the clock? Experts are as experts do & the better ones don't need to hang out on a forum they love to loathe, often claiming only ignorant newbies post there, just to pretend they are smarter than everyone else, whilst avoiding any real discussion & in-depth knowledge sharing. Funny, you're shut down quite quickly on other forums full of long-time, experienced people that have actually accomplished their goals & continue to reset those goals to improve their chosen breeds, even the meager book-learned individuals.
But all this talk about experience of the aforementioned parties is a moot point because no one is advocating for one position or the other or claiming to be something they’re not, except you (and you seem quite obsessed with trying to make people believe you're right all the time & everyone else is just plain wrong).
Susanne's post of Karin's take was excellent because it not only provided more insight but it also included a tidbit about why it is not necessarily a preferred method for goats vs. cattle. Vicki, I told you I visited dairy goat farms from both schools of thought, GOOD ones too. The better farms on either side of the aisle had no obvious differences in the condition & productivity of the animals. But that is anecdotal & Alaska is small, with few herds that are truly comparable. It would be better to review controlled studies & hold discussions with the scientists involved in the studies to try to learn more, just as Dr. Shipka offered to anyone willing to attend his presentation this month.
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Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians
So instead of just agreeing with someone else to disagree with what I say, how about how you do it? & why?
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Are you reading a different version of this forum than everyone else? Susanne did not agree or disagree with me, just as I never agreed or disagreed with Dr. Shipka's explanation of the two schools of thought. Susanne and I simply provided more information to the theories involved in this discussion so that those of us really wanting to learn can understand more about the reasoning behind each school of thought & evaluate it for reliability & practicality.
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Originally Posted by susanne
heather now you know, why i was hesitating to post this info.
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Yes, what a shame. Even worse that Vicki's attitude is predictable & continues.
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Originally Posted by susanne
young &/or knew does not equal stupid. you may have been stupid when you were young? know after 20 years are you smarter?
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Exactly, some newcomers really excel in learning their goats & how to best keep them & they don't need 20 years to do it. Like me, they have an insatiable hunger for information & seek it out rather than waiting for it to come along one day. Some others just never seem to learn & they do the same thing over & over again for decades & never seem to want to learn more & improve their results, let alone learn about why they saw results one way or the other. Vicki, you may not have ever explicitly called anyone here stupid in the public forums, but you sure imply it here & you don't hold back your real opinion of this forum when you post elsewhere.
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Originally Posted by susanne
chuck this was my last post to this topic.
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Such a shame this topic has to end because of one person's tirades & bullying. However, we did get some information out there for people to research further & evaluate for themselves & that was my intent. I hope people can read past the nonsense & get the information they seek.
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Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh Tx Nubians
This thread is about if cattle information has any value when compared to dairy goat information, & your post was just giving more information about this.
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Actually, since I started the thread I will tell you that that is NOT what it was about. It was about sharing information on why some people practice restricting dietary Ca during the last few weeks of gestation in cattle & goats. Here you finally acknowledge that Susanne's post was intended to provide more information along the same lines of my original post. She never stated an opinion or advocacy for either position on the matter yet you continued to chide her as you did me. I still haven't seen an acknowledgment from you that you made a mistake, let alone an apology.
Vicki, your negative attitude isn’t going to make anyone see things your way & only your way. Furthermore, I would hope no one would blindly follow anyone without asking questions. I hope the other newbies that read your posts know that they need not parrot your methods to fit in or even to succeed, that they can ask real questions & learn from other people, & that they should not fear posting questions & opinions & random goat-related thoughts here. What good is a forum where only one view is ever presented? What purpose would it serve?
Vicki, I've tried really hard not get wrapped up in your bad attitude, even though you thought my polite posts to you here warranted targeting me outside this site.
It's one thing to just shrug off a personality conflict & continue to wear a thick skin, but when several people stop posting because they don't want to provoke your attention, & when one is even brave enough to say so in this thread, it is just too much. You just refuse to read for content & you seem intent on picking fights. Why do you think everything posted here is directed at you or somehow intended to discredit you & your methods? Are you that threatened by someone that asks specific questions you're either unwilling or unable to answer, in detail, in a civil manner? I'm here to learn & share the things I learn with other folks, as I suspect others are, & that objective has nothing to do with you. I don't know how to get through to you that no one here is out to get you. For most folks, I suspect, you simply aren't significant enough to warrant such efforts, despite your delusions of fame & grandeur.
This is my last post in this thread as I'm tired of going in off-topic circles, especially if it amounts to nothing more than entertaining one with so little respect for her peers & her chosen industry. If anyone would like to continue an intelligent, fact-finding discussion on this issue, I wholeheartedly encourage them to do so. I hope it doesn't have to be on another forum though. For those that want to discuss things with me, I welcome PMs from civil folks, except Vicki, who has demonstrated her counterproductive behavior here & on many other forums.
