CAE panic!!!

jordan · #21 11/07/07, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by susanne

i have my animals all tested for cl because i did not want to wait until external abscess, i can see, pops up. the internal abscess is the one you rarely see, only if you butcher yourself and know what to look for.
i have only a view tested for johnes because i believe this is not a real thread
in my herd.

I went with the advise of my vet early on and he hasn't steered me wrong yet. I'm one of the fortunate ones who has a terrific vet who studied up on goats and enjoys working with them! After what he told me about Johnnes and CAE, I did further research into both but got sort of fixated on Johnnes because it seemed so devasting to a herd (it scared me more) and right about that time I ran into someone who had bought Johnnes positive animals as kids and I tell you - by the time he realized what was happening, it was ugly. He lost all his goats except his buck who was in a seperate pen.
According to the State extension info it is prevalant in the midwest (just not talked about/recognized by many). I'm guessing some of those figures come from the number of test results the states see.

I wonder if CAE is just more prevalent in the larger goat breeds? Not bashing! The only ND breeders that I know have CAE also raise larger breeds (but they are only the one's I KNOW about, I'm sure there's more!). A couple of others with it now, bought their ND's from those breeders without getting test results. I personally know of 3 breeders who will not share their test results (one of them is in MI). I truly don't understand why people go ahead and buy from them

We had a couple of necropsies done years back when 2 of my goats had died and there were no abcesses (or johnnes). Can't remember what it was now (endo.. something?). My vet didn't think the CL testing was needed unless something changed (goats were around others with lumps at a show or something). Maybe I will add that to next years testing to be on the safe side. Is that done via blood as well?

Mrs. Jo · #22 11/07/07, 10:32 AM

You are right in Wisconsin, so do what others in YOUR area are doing. Go ahead and test for CAE, JOHNES, and CL. These are your 3 basic blood tests. Any other tests are based on the condition of your goats, if you have any problems that keep cropping up.

Cl goes over to california, but the CAE, and the Johnes can be done in a lab more local to you. Your vet will know about that. The test are not 100% accurate and any positives that happen need to be re-tested.

Re the free goats: "never look a gift horse in the mouth!" is a saying that is true. I wouldn't expect much from free or cheap goats, but I am sorry that those died on you. It really does not sound like CAE, but really more of a long standing infection or health problem. It's really too bad that she took advantage of you like that. Now, I wonder what kind of a reputation she has with her peers?

The best thing we can do is to not support herds who do not act responsibly with their livestock. Seek out the ones who test and cull and who test and use prevention and buy from those.

Jim S. · #23 11/07/07, 01:11 PM

Best management answer in the whole durned thread...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Always worm incoming stock, put them on hay and make all feed changes really slowly.

Swollen joints is almost always mycoplasma, which can show up as swollen joints, pnemonia, mastitis and misscarriage, and the last part of death is seizure. Listerosis has this same list.

If your goal isn't a CAE free herd, and if you aren't willing to cull, or seperate your positive does, you may choose not to test. Will you really butcher all your positive does? Or keep them seperated and make sure their kids never nurse again? Because if not, than knowing their status isn't important.

Vicki

You know, I call CAE and CL "the Internet diseases." Yes, they are not preferable or even easy, but prior to the Net people dealt with them all the time. They are manageable. The angst about these diseases is often directly proportional to the amount of Net time spent.

Feral Nature · #24 11/07/07, 02:09 PM

Internet diseases, maybe, but hurray for the information highway and the spread of knowledge we all have now. I saw abcsess in herds prior to Al Gore inventing the interweb and no one knew anything about anything. I saw beautiful registered Nubian breeding stock being sold by a guy who just thought the CL abscesses where "knots". It was only later that I realized what they were. Fortunately, I had kept looking and bought stock elsewhere (he did not disbud so I bought from someone else). Had he disbudded, i may have bought those goats with "knots" as it did not seem to affect anything and I was a newbie. I saw one of his goats later and it looked like a leper with huge holes and vast areas of tissue missing, stuff coming out.....NOW because of this internet, a newbie at least has heard of it in many cases and an ignorant or un-ethical seller will not saddle them with diseased stock.

Jim, I thought the only internet diseases were viruses and trojans....LOL

...sorry.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #25 11/07/07, 02:37 PM

Jim just because you learned about them on the internet, they have been a problem in goats forever. With new testing in the 80's and now Elissa, the internet has helped to bring goat issues into the 21st century. Like TB and Bangs, CL will one day be dealt with by the USDA because it is zoonic. Johnnes also as the link between it an Chrones is found. When farmers ignore what they know (pesticide and disease), the government is forced to make laws, and they have and will, just in our lifetime.

It's not important in your herd because your herd is a terminal market. Terminal markets in livestock are a necessity, it's why the taking away of the slaughter facilities for horses is criminal.

When anyone sells breeding stock they should be knowledgeable enough about their livestock to not sell animals to others with communicable disease.

And it is a crusade of mine...nobody has to deal with disease on their farm like I do mine, but I will ---- sure do everything I can to help new folks make responsible decisions about their first goats. As folks have gotten educated it has been harder and harder for breeders to sell their crap to new folks. Some choose to not listen, that's up to them.

And yes I know you were baiting me. Vicki

susanne · #26 11/07/07, 03:34 PM

good response diane and vicki

i love the internet and a the info i can get there. it is true, that it does not always provide the correct answer but i still believe the info that is shared on the internet it is price less

btw, there can not be enough hype about those diseases. that there are so many animals infected tells me there is not enough info shared yet

Jim S. · #27 11/07/07, 03:38 PM

Lord Vicki, you do not know how to take a compliment. You really need to work on impugning people publicly.

I learned about goat husbandry back in 1989 by buying books...vet books mainly. I also learned by doing, and by apprenticing myself to other farmers. I'm no johnny come lately to this whole deal.

My point is that the PANIC in the subject line really is a creation of the Net. Both conditions are manageable, and preventable by management. I can go back to my books I still have -- some going all the way back to 1972 copyrights -- and see information about managing these dieases.

OK, rationality has been duly noted -- now, please continue with the marketing hype. Which is really what it all is about, anyway.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #28 11/07/07, 09:35 PM

You really need to work on impugning people publicly.
......................OK how is this....

For us little ole` darling dairy goat women it's marketing hype. For the big ole tough men with their meat goats it's common sense and just deal with the disease, and since everyone else is doing it just bury your head in the sand, don't ask don't tell.

Your turn

Vicki

jordan · #29 11/08/07, 12:05 AM

[QUOTE=When anyone sells breeding stock they should be knowledgeable enough about their livestock to not sell animals to others with communicable disease.
And it is a crusade of mine...nobody has to deal with disease on their farm like I do mine, but I will ---- sure do everything I can to help new folks make responsible decisions about their first goats. As folks have gotten educated it has been harder and harder for breeders to sell their crap to new folks. Some choose to not listen, that's up to them. Vicki[/QUOTE]

Hear! Hear! If only all breeders were responsible...
I cannot stress it enough, buyers need to ask to see proof of negative tests.
Very few people I have sold to have actually asked to see results! I have it ready, but they just don't seem to want/need proof. I guess I'm just a suspicious devil, because I want to see it, and then I still want the bottle babies raised on preventative!

Three years ago, I had contacted a breeder who had it posted on her site that she tests, but she refused to send me copies. I passed, but am seeing lots of those animals she sold in that time frame coming up for sale again as 2 and 3 year olds from the people who bought them from her. Now I don't know if these animals are positive or not, but I sure am suspicious of it considering the source!

Many experienced buyers have become more savvy, and breeders have a tougher time selling their crap to them, but unfortunately there is always that crop of newbies that can be prayed upon. Who in turn put more crap out in the marketplace...

Testing may seem like "marketing hype" but I'm absolutely OK with that. I like having the peace of mind knowing I bought from a breeder who does whole herd tests for Johnnes and CAE. I also like being able to provide that same peace of mind to those buying from me.
So I will just keep hyping and harping away on this subject!
Lois

Jillis · #30 11/08/07, 05:11 AM

Huh. One of the reasons those diseases are so rampant is lack of education, and of "panic".

We have a wonderful woman here in VT who crusades to control those diseases. She makes incredible organic aged cheeses from her goats' milk that are aged in a cheese cave on her farm. She mentored me early on. She is very much like Vicki in her approach to this problem.

Healthy livestock = healthy consumers. (and farmers!)

goatkid · #31 11/09/07, 12:19 AM

I was taught about CL and CAE by my goat mentor prior to finding any of these goat websites. This is a woman who raises both dairy and meat goats and will not tolerate abcesses in any of her goats. She also taught me the importance of feeding pasteurized milk and testing any does who dam raise their kids. I just think it's good common sense to raise clean, healthy animals.