Copper questions

Kaye White · #21 10/25/07, 05:19 PM

Please...anyone that hasn't, go to this site and read everything about copper studies, research, and what works and doesn't.
http://www.saanendoah.com/copper1.html

Quoted from site:
When copper deficiency has been recognized, attempts to remedy it by provision of extra oral copper has proved unsatisfactory because of the unpredictable intake, rapid excretion, and variable effect. With an element such as copper, which is a cumulative poison, the risk of chronic copper poisoning from parenteral or oral copper treatment is positively correlated with its effectiveness in combating deficiency. Existing methods of treatment for copper deficiency have limitations. Mineral licks and supplementals are unpredictable because of the individual refusal of some animals and over indulgence of others. Copper sulfate (CuSo4) drenches are not only astringent (Cu sulphate drench, if it accidentally enters the lungs, can cause shock and death) but more than 90% of the copper is rapidly excreted from the body. Animals need to be drenched every 2-3 weeks.

There is so much useful information with research to back it up that everyone that even thinks they have problems needs to read this.
Kaye

hoofinitnorth · #22 10/25/07, 05:28 PM

Yes, thank you for posting that Kaye!

Also, do not fear "hardware disease" with proper bolus technique and application.

Mrs. Jo · #23 10/26/07, 01:56 PM

We use the copper sulfate NOT the boluses here. Unfortunetly in some areas copper bolusing is NOT a good idea and you can poison goats by using them. Also in some areas, copper boluses can become encapsulated with calcium deposits and these will not help your copper problems.

Copper sulfate can be used to cure copper problems, but you have to be sure not to give it too often. The liver stores copper in the body, but once it has enough then it's time to stop. If you continue giving copper sulfate when the goats are looking good then it's possible to poison them. Same thing happens with bolusus and you have to make sure that they will be o.k. for the goats if you give them minerals or kelp or other supplements or feed that has copper in it. Or you can poison them that way too.

I would ask around what people are doing in your area and see what your vet recommends.

We make a very gentle 1 % solution of copper sulfate and water and give that to the goats if they look like they need it. It isn't any more astringent than any other kind of drench. It isn't dangerous at all. Follow good drenching procedures and don't get it into the lungs, go slowly.
Mix two teaspoons of copper sulfate in a two liter pop bottle filled with warm water. For a standard sized goat give 20 cc's once a day for 7 days, rest a week, give again for 7 days and rest two weeks, and then drench again if needed. Resting is very important because it gives the goats body time to correct the problems with out becoming over whelmed.

I would not recommend giving the copper sulfate as a powder by itself. In her books, Pat Colby reccomends that it be combined with dolomite and vit c, both supplements help protect the liver from absorbing too much, too soon.
Even with Pat Cobly's cautionary advice, people still get over enthusiastic and poison their goats with it. With copper, a little is good but more may NOT be better.

deafgoatlady · #24 10/26/07, 03:50 PM

Jo@ LaudoDeumFa... Well SAID! That is what I have BEEN trying to tell everyone about this.. I would NOT use the bolusing.. I use the SAME directions that U used.. I love it. It is more gentle and feels more safe!! I am using it and It is great.. Well said!!! Finally someone said something about this... Thank you!.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #25 10/26/07, 04:00 PM

Jo the problem with this information is that it is antedotal and that is it. You can read for yourself stuides that show copper sulfate not only did not work and why it won't work in loose minerals, but why it is astringent and bad on rumens. You also have never done one liver biopsy to know that what you are doing is working. (big leap since I don't know you, but knowing that copper sulfate never makes it to the liver to up the level of stored utilized copper, I know this because I did this also) At the low levels you are doing it at, perhaps you haven't caused harm, but it certainly isn't doing anything else.

When copper is a problem in your area, antidotal information is a waste of time and worm burdens, feet problems, kidding problems plague your farm. This subject is just like worms, until you fecal you are guessing, I just simply couldn't guess anymore with that either.

Reading the saanendoah.com site, with all the clickable links, and the stuides is well worth anyones time. Other antedotal information given to someone on our forum, giving the whole bolus, gave her a liver biopsy high, scarry high. Copper is not one of those things you just do "cause".

Thousands of goats studied in the information on saanendoah.com yet it is poopooed for a book or another site who didn't do any of their own research, or no research at all. We have dairy goat research for this instance!!! Vicki

Mrs. Jo · #26 10/26/07, 06:26 PM

Oh, there's more than one way to skin this cat. One of the reasons why I trust the copper drenches is that it is easy to see if it's working in the animals. One study doesn't prove anything, especially studies that have been conducted in favor of something the ag industry is promoting. (oh, there it is again. My anti-establishment bias.) The fact is, I have done this for a number of years and I know enough breeders who have used this method to help their goats, and it works for them. I haven't yet got liver biopsy's done, when using the method of 1% cs solution. Perhaps next year, since I'm going to be raising more meat goats then.

Anecdotal evidence is always a place to start. judging by some of the really old books I have read on goat keeping, it was once anecdotal evidence that goats need copper at all, most thought they needed to be fed like sheep. Have you seen information that states clearly that CS is NOT stored in the liver?

Vicki, I can judge that it is working because I can see that it is working. I do fecals, and my goats are incredibly healthy right now. My fecal numbers are very low, nothing at all to worry about. But my soils and forages are very different up here in MN. I don't live in your area, which certainly has severe problems. I do know folks in this area who have given boluses and poisoned their goats, so it does happen. Having chosen to follow a natural perspective on raising goats, I do research and discuss what other "naturally" minded breeders are doing. Some of their information is good and some isn't. However, I think there is a large proportion of truth to this when so many folks have tried it and seen the good effects of it.
One of the problems with the snip from the saanendoah information is that it doesn't say how they were using the copper sulfate at all. In fact if I go back and read it I can see that it is geared towards goats and goat keepers who are in commercial production. For instance:
"When copper deficiency has been recognized, attempts to remedy it by provision of extra oral copper has proved unsatisfactory because of the unpredictable intake, rapid excretion, and variable effect." Unpredictable intake, rapid excretion and variable effect are going to be cogs in the wheel of folks who need absolute predictability, folks who are in situations who have large amounts of goats and they can't give individual attention to them. I believe bolusing was made just for that situation. Unsatisfactory from a production minded prospective. Not necessarily so from a sustainable or ecological perspective.
"Copper sulfate (CuSo4) drenches are not only astringent (Cu sulphate drench, if it accidentally enters the lungs, can cause shock and death)
I think this is a befuddled and misleading statement. Any drench that enters the lungs can cause shock and death, or pneumonia. I would question if this wasn't really from being improperly drenched in the first place. In any case, I don't think the risk is any worse than the risk we take when we vaccinate.
Sorry I don't have any liver biopsy's to offer you to "prove" that this works well enough to be recommended to others. I am slowly amassing information about this but all this certainly takes time, which is in short supply around here.
By the way, when I look at the mineral mis chart at saanendoah, copper sulfate is in almost every mix listed. it seems that at least most copper mixes use copper sulfate. One has copper carbonate.

fishhead · #27 10/26/07, 06:58 PM

Will goats drink the copper sulfate water or do they have to be drenched?

Kaye White · #28 10/26/07, 09:28 PM

Not here to argue which method is better....anyone contemplating copper use should read for themselves and make their own decisions.
Again, an inexpensive liver biopsy can tell you much more about your own herd than all the breeders put together.
Kaye

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #29 10/26/07, 10:26 PM

Perhaps read a little more than a snip? To say what was done by Joyce was done for a "studies that have been conducted in favor of something the ag industry is promoting." is rediculous, it would be like me doing the studies I have on worms was done because I purchase Cydectin. You don't know Joyce to say anything like this. Makes good fodder for this style of forum but it means nothing.

My point of all this is...I DO NOT BOLUS my milkers...by learning about copper and the problems you have in your herd, you can deal with most copper deficiency by knowing the information on saanendoah.com If I listened to all of you I would be bolusing my whole herd when it is not needed.

Yes copper sulfate doesn't work and it's in every loose mineral out there, so get a better mineral, one with copper oxide one with chelated minerals. Get the red iron oxide out of the red minerals you feed. Get the iron out of their water and out of their sweet feed. Don't use galvanized water troughs or galvanized water pipe to the barn... which leach excess Zinc into their water daily, especially as the troughs get older. Then if you still see problems bolus.

Nothing more natural than dealing with a problem with actions that don't include ruining their rumens with copper sulfate dilutions you are guessing at. And when and if my copper liver levels fall, my does will be bolused just like my kids and bucks are now.

If using a high copper sulfate mineral mix is not working for you, than it just makes sense to give them more orally in water???? Does this really make sense to you?

Oh to be like Kaye and just let it go

....They'll learn or their goats will die....sorry but some new person will read this and posion their goats...Without study on this subject you can indeed poison your goats. Vicki

deafgoatlady · #30 10/26/07, 10:46 PM

I am with Jo about this... Becuz she is so right about the 1% solution copper. That what I use. I DRENCH it to the goats mouth.. It is much better than bolusing... With Bolusing u will NEVER know how much your goats needs it becuz bolus is SLOW RELEASING. I wouldnt take that chance with bolusing..

USUALLY, BLACK goats NEEDs more copper than light colors. That is why loose mineral dont ALWAYS help for the black goats. That is why you have to watch for the signs.. I got that informatiom from the website:

http://www.u-sayranch.com/goats/coppersulfate.html The direction is SAME as what Jo said..

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #31 10/26/07, 10:58 PM

USUALLY, BLACK goats NEEDs more copper than light colors.
......................................

Black goats just show you symptoms earlier with coat color than other colored goats in the herd. They do not need more copper or less.

It is much better than bolusing...
........................

How do you know it is better than bolusing when you have not tested nor bolused? Nor read saanendoah.com and the studies done on dairy goats. Vicki

susanne · #32 10/26/07, 11:04 PM

the difference between black goats and light colored goats is, that i can see deficiency much earlier. they need exact the same amount of copper.
if i bolus my animals i can see the result too

next spring i will take pics of my buck sam before and after bolusing, because he was such a nice example this year.

deafgoatlady · #33 10/26/07, 11:07 PM

My vet told me that bolusing is very dangerous for the goats and he said that 1 percent solution is the best way to go. And there is MANY people from different goat forums told me that 1 percent solution is the best way to use also.. With bolusing they release slowly and we wont know if they really NEED that MUCH of bolusing becuz they CAN release more than what they needed.. I WOULD use the 1 percent solution copper.. I have to say. I totally agree with Jo and others from different goat forums and my vet..

susanne · #34 10/26/07, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deafgoatlady

My vet told me that bolusing is very dangerous for the goats and he said that 1 percent solution is the best way to go. And there is MANY people from different goat forums told me that 1 percent solution is the best way to use also.. With bolusing they release slowly and we wont know if they really NEED that MUCH of bolusing becuz they CAN release more than what they needed.. I WOULD use the 1 percent solution copper.. I have to say. I totally agree with Jo and others from different goat forums and my vet..

yes you are right and you need to follow and do what others tell you to do.

Mrs. Jo · #35 10/27/07, 09:35 AM

Vicki, I can judge that it is working because I can see that it is working. I do fecals, and my goats are incredibly healthy right now. My fecal numbers are very low, nothing at all to worry about. But my soils and forages are very different up here in MN. I don't live in your area, which certainly has severe problems.

The original post asked about using the copper sulfate drenches and I think if folks are going to decide to do this then they need to use it as it was originally intended by making it a 1 % solution and dosing and resting as stated. If used in this cautious manner then no one is going to poison anything. The improvement is much faster than that of bolusing and that is one of the reasons why we rest.

Quite often, after one round of drenching, the animals condition is maintained easily by their regular minerals.

Vicki, one of the things you must realize is that we do not live in texas, california, or any other dry and desert like state. Our needs are very different here and many folks don't need to bolus.

I don't need numbers on a page to tell me if cs drenching is working. I can see by the condition of the animal that it helps them. Also, because I don't have huge numbers to take care of, individual dosing works for us.

There isn't just one way to cure copper defieciency. There is more than one way and I'm not saying that one method is better than the other. Please read my emails carefully, I am not arguing that one method is better than the other. I let the goat keeper make that judgement themselves.

hoofinitnorth · #36 10/27/07, 12:03 PM

Vicki - why bolus the kids and bucks and not the milkers? I'm not clear on that from your post.

southerngurl · #37 10/27/07, 09:06 PM

Ok, the big question I am left with is how to know if you goat needs it or not? Is there any test you can do on live goats?

The first time I knew of copper in people was copper toxicity, so I'm coming at this backwards to think of a deficiency. It still makes me nervous. From what I've read, I think two of my goats have it, but any way to know? If I made them sick it would be terrible.

hoofinitnorth · #38 10/27/07, 11:35 PM

southerngurl - complications from Wilson's disease took my aunt. She was misdiagnosed for years as having Parkinson's.

I haven't heard of any other reliable way to test for copper deficiencies in goats besides a liver biopsy, which has to be done on a dead animal. PLEASE, if someone else has new information on this, TELL US.

The signs are fishtail, wirey/thin/piggish hair, dull coat colors, and from what I've read here, ghosting around the eyes (although I wonder how often that is normal coloring???) and reddish points on a BLACK goat.

southerngurl · #39 10/28/07, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hoofinitnorth

Vicki - why bolus the kids and bucks and not the milkers? I'm not clear on that from your post.

I'm wondering the same thing.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #40 10/28/07, 01:48 PM

Because these two classes of goats at my farm...I don't run my stock together..don't eat minerals. Since birth, last week was the first time I added minerals to my baby pen, not because it needed changing but because they needed adding because they ate it. These are Feb and march kids...The bucks rarely eat thier minerals. So I bolus both. The milkers diet is also much easier to tweak, they love minerals., they are also hungry on the milkstand twice a day so I can sneak in anything on them in their milkstand grain.....the 13 will go through a 50 pound bag just during the 100 days at the end of their pregnancy, it takes them the whole rest of a year to even get through part of another bag.

There are some labs...Texas A&M and University of Minnesota, doing live liver analysis. I will be doing one next spring. Vicki