formulating my own diets - where to start?

Filas are Prima · #21 10/24/07, 08:26 AM

The BEST tome on animal feed and nutrition is- FEEDS and FEEDING, by Morrison.
The endless breakdown of all feeds, even the wierd ones that no one even thinks about, can be found in FEEDS and FEEDING. The author's philosophy is "Thrifty", which is maintaining good, productive condition on livestock by feeding economicaly with products available locally. There are chapters for all classes of livestock-but the goats are, of course, lumped in with sheep. This book in without peer for nutritional information.

smwon · #22 10/24/07, 10:23 AM

I found the book on amazon.com: Feeds and Feeding by Morrison. It says it was published in 1949 and is the eighth edition.... is this the one you were referring to? Or should I find newer one?

I think that some of the old practices were better than what we do today...

P.S. While I continued to look for the book, I found lots more published at different times.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #23 10/24/07, 11:16 AM

Question for Vicki - how much sunflower oil would I need for my nigerians?
Thanks all for this informative discussion!
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Start with a teaspoon per doe per day, slowly increasing until you see poop problems (dogpoop) then go back to the level you were at before. I do alot of challenge feeding.

It's not like you can't find even on the internet really good sources of what is in this or that...but it's the putting this or that into a ration that compliments your afalfa, or works with grass hay so you aren't on this forum this spring with hypocalcemia and milk fever. For those developing their own rations for dairy goats watch the forums...then go back and read nutrition responses from those with these problems...thats the eye opening expericence you need since most won't really talk about the deaths they have had completely nutrition related.

Out here grass hay, and a dairy lactation pellet (chocked full of mineralized calcium) with Sweet Lix minerals, simply gives you metobolic disease. At club most gals with large herd will loose 1 to 3 milkers plus their kids. It's common, and it isn't happening here anymore with my copper and alfalfa pellets. Vicki

Keeperofmanya · #24 10/24/07, 11:43 AM

Hi Vickie. I know you are probably tired of answering the same old questions again but I would really like your advice.
I bought my alfalfa pellets this morning and I am going to be giving them to my buck, bucklings and doelings a little at a time until they adjust. When I bring my milking doe home tomorrow how do I start feeding her because I feed different than the place where she is comming from? When I milk her can I give her my mare & foal feed with BOSS & kelp added or should I just give her scratch ( Barley,Corn & Wheat) with added BOSS & kelp? We have this scratch for the pheasants. Don't have no oats at the presant time.
Also how much should I feed her? I will also have to adjust her to the alfalfa pellets to. Is the move and all of this different feeding going to hurt her?
By the way, Love your goats.

hoofinitnorth · #25 10/24/07, 01:14 PM

I guess it would help me if I had some good references on the nutritional requirements for goats and then other references on the nutritional analyses of various foodstuffs. That would give me a better of idea of what I need to supplement, when, and why. For instance, I hear all these different numbers thrown out that CA to Phosphorus needs to be 2:1 or it needs to be 5:1 or this or that - well which is it and upon what is this based (besides "it's what works for me")? There's a big difference between 2:1 and 5:1 so if they both work for different herds, there has to be some other big differences in how those goats are kept!

smwon - you're not hijacking the thread, don't worry, I'm sure I'll benefit from your questions here too!

Vicki - Hehehehe, yeah, it's good to hear the bad with the good. I do appreciate when people share puzzling things or things that didn't work out the way they thought they should. Protein blocks, now that's not something I've thought about much. Hmmmm... I did find some 15% alfie pellets but again, don't like that they are CLEARLY putting junk in them that isn't listed on the label and the price is HIGHER than the premo 20%+ alfie hay I have now!!! Around $600/ton at Wal-Mart (which is cheaper than they charge at the mill!)! ACK! Wouldn't the protein blocks would sort of be putting me back where I don't want to be - feeding a block of who-knows-what vs. real whole foods?

Now I did buy some LOVELY whole local oats yesterday. Between that, the local barley, and the imported alfalfa that finally arrived - OH MY! My livestock will be SPOILED this winter... And I AM sprouting grains right now too (yes, it's finally working)!

Tracy & Julia - I agree about focusing to much on the grain! I am trying to make sure though, that the grain I do feed, is fed at appropriate intervals, in the right amounts, in a balanced mix. If I feed local timothy/brome, I have to do a lot more supplementing than if I feed imported timothy or alfalfa. I'd LOVE nothing more than to feed primo alfie hay but wow, it is spendy. On the other hand... I think it probably comes pretty close in cost to feeding local + more supplements because you can feed so much less of it, provided they get enough fiber. In other words, alfie is such a power-packed food nutritionally, that a little goes a long way. You can't really compare RFVs in grasses to legumes, but for this alfie to compare to others, for instance, the RFV is over 200 (I'm still waiting to see what it actually IS but over 200 is fantastic as alfie goes, I understand). The other thing you have to think about is the reason people seem to be concentrating on grain is because it's one of the things you CAN change. Your hay is what it is!

I'm sorry I wasn't clear that I do understand forage is first and foremost. Please note, however, that in the goals I set forth for feeding a mixed grain ration, NONE of them talked about feeding a plain old goat doing nothing special (like growing, breeding, or lactating)- that sends a clue that I know goats don't subsist on grain and certainly don't always need it.

Also, I know what you were driving at with pigs but frankly, as monogastrics, they don't do well on a lot of grain at times either! As a horse owner for many years, I know that grains suddenly added to the diet or fed in high quantities (especially if the horse doesn't get adequate exercise, hence the racehorse reference in an earlier post of mine) can spell disaster!

Please do give me SOME credit, I am here asking and listening and learning. I'm not arguing with anyone and telling them that what they are doing is wrong or not the way I want to do it (So there! <sticking tongue out> lol). I have a LONG history of researching as much as I can and applying quality information to PREVENT disasters like hypo/hypercalcaemia, etc. I'm not saying I'll do it all right the first time and never make a mistake, and I'm not saying I don't have to sometimes learn for myself the hard way (I am human, afterall), but I'm saying I am here to learn, not be pushed off like some newbie that is only asking questions so I can spend time on the computer. *sigh*

As for not posting here and going off to learn from people in Alaska, what do you think I am doing the other 23 hours of the day that I'm not here? It's not like I CAN'T learn from people outside my state - there are plenty of people up here I do NOT respect and admire that do things many different ways that I think lead them down the same destructive paths. Not because they are lazy or stupid (although there are some of those too I bet), they just don't have the knowledge to pinpoint WHAT is causing the problems and maybe they don't have the drive to figure it out. There aren't that many that I follow as high quality mentors but I am lucky they do share and I do listen, but as you have all noted, there is no One True Way and thus there is no ONE person to model after.

Filas are Prima - thank you for the book citation. I will look for it. I don't mind that it's old if it is a well-written reference. I sometimes think we need to go back to basics and see what worked centuries before certain technological advances started flubbing up our farming.

An update - my alfie came yesterday and WOW OH WOW is it BEAUTIFUL!! No shattered leaves, no dust, VERY dry, a small amount of stem, LOTS of leaf, and what a SWEET smell! I only gave the girls about 1/2 pound yesterday as a treat and they DOVE into it. I'll be slowly increasing their hay to switch them over from straight timothy/brome to a mix and maybe even to straight alfie if I can ration it affordably.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #26 10/24/07, 02:55 PM

Keeper of many, bring home some of her diet she is used to, then when you decide what you will move to, slowly start introducing her new diet with her old....3/4th to 1/4th the next week 1/2 and 1/2 then 1/4th old to 3/4th new then finally in about 4 weeks all her new program. Just give her alfalfa pellets in the barn, 1 cup every day for a couple of days....and on until she is at about 3 pounds.

Grain for milk is soo all about condition you want on your goats and the doe. From 1 pound at morning milk and 1 pound at night, to all she wants each milking...each doe is different. You will feed more of your byproduct feed tag than I will of oats, and with alot of volume to your mare and colt and any molassas in it, she may simply not eat enough without some acidosis issues.

Most bird feed is really way to ground up, but better than byproduct guesses though. I actually prefer horse feeds to any goat feeds out here, so if you quality is good, use the horse feed unless it's heavy molassased.

Go easy with adding kelp to grain they really want to eat, I would prefer to put kelp into my loose minerals.

Love your herd name, and thanks for the compliment. Vicki

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #27 10/24/07, 03:07 PM

Wouldn't the protein blocks would sort of be putting me back where I don't want to be - feeding a block of who-knows-what vs. real whole foods?
..............................

Depends upon the block, no urea, soybean oil and soy meal based block, which would compliment your grass hay low protein and your lack of soy, which would be the only acceptable form of protein I would choose if I could use alfalfa.

May be a little early in your goating, but Goat Medicine and it's bibliography is the best text you will find. Jim posted a really good site on the nutritonal analysis of feed stuffs.

There's a big difference between 2:1 and 5:1 so if they both work for different herds, there has to be some other big differences in how those goats are kept!
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Bingo you got it!!!! Not only regional differences but the goats themselves. No way can I pull numbers like Tracy does in my goats! I breed for high multiples and milk, and Jim doesn't want even triplets, which for me triplets are normal here than singles or twins.

Vicki

hoofinitnorth · #28 10/24/07, 04:17 PM

Thanks, Vicki, for the book reference. I am off to have a look...

Filas are Prima · #29 10/24/07, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smwon

I found the book on amazon.com: Feeds and Feeding by Morrison. It says it was published in 1949 and is the eighth edition.... is this the one you were referring to? Or should I find newer one?

I think that some of the old practices were better than what we do today...

P.S. While I continued to look for the book, I found lots more published at different times.

My copy is from 1950, and I bought it used, or my Dad did, in the mid '80's.
Feeds and Feeding is truly invaluable for ALL feed stuffs-from tankage to peanut hulls. The scope of this book is enormous. There is also a lesser edition, but if you can find the entire book, nab it!
So, how much do they want for it on Amazon?
Feeds and Feeding is my must have book-and I have all the stuff from UC Davis Equine Reproduction course, for example of my animal library.

hoofinitnorth · #30 10/24/07, 06:49 PM

Hmmm, Amazon has "Feeds & Feeding 21ed a Handbook for the Stud" by Morrison but the others listed as "Feeds and Feeding" were not by Morrison.

Still searching other resources...

hoofinitnorth · #31 10/24/07, 06:52 PM

Wait, wait! I found several copies of older editions. Seems newer ones are all abridged. Cool! Looking for "Goat Medicine" too.

hoofinitnorth · #32 10/24/07, 07:12 PM

Vicki - who's the author of Goat Medicine? I'm finding Sheep and Goat Medicine by Pugh and Goat Medicine by Smith & Sherman. I presume you mean the latter but I'd like to check before I am disappointed with the wrong book.

On the Morrison book, boy there are a gazillion editions of that book! I think I found a reprint from 2003 that is unabridged but there are plenty of the older books out there up to the 21st or 22nd edition so that I can save the $80+ in price difference. Sheesh!

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #33 10/24/07, 09:35 PM

Smith and Sherman....sheep? you had to ask

Vicki

Filas are Prima · #34 10/24/07, 10:56 PM

Peering at the frontispiece--
Feeds and Feeding, A Handbook for the Student and Stockman, by Frank B. Morrison.
21st Edition, Unabridged, 1950. Ithaca New York. The Morrison Publishing Company.

It's a real humdinger, anyway, with 1205 pages to peruse. Even portable chicken houses plans. Hog houses, feeding draft vs saddle horses, beef vs dairy heifers, etc.

smwon · #35 10/24/07, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filas are Prima

My copy is from 1950, and I bought it used, or my Dad did, in the mid '80's.
Feeds and Feeding is truly invaluable for ALL feed stuffs-from tankage to peanut hulls. The scope of this book is enormous. There is also a lesser edition, but if you can find the entire book, nab it!
So, how much do they want for it on Amazon?
Feeds and Feeding is my must have book-and I have all the stuff from UC Davis Equine Reproduction course, for example of my animal library.

I found them for anywhere between $4.96 to $29.00... there is one published in 1917... wow!

smwon · #36 10/24/07, 11:41 PM

Ok... I ordered it... published in 1949, 1207 pages, hardcover and is illustrated with charts and photos. $6.93 + $3.99 shipping.

hoofinitnorth · #37 10/25/07, 12:07 AM

I am ordering the 22nd edition (1959), unabridged, 1165 pages for about $8. Whoopee! Also ordering the Goat Medicine book and a couple others.

Funny thing about some book prices - I can get new copies of of Owen's and Consitine's standards/conformation/judging books for about $17-$20 from various goat resources but used copies are up around $45 on the bookstore sites! Wonder if there's a difference in the editions? I couldn't tell from the bookstore sites.

smwon · #38 10/31/07, 01:50 PM

I received my book today.... very informative and useful. The Examples of Rations for Farm Animals sounds interesting. It gives mixes for dairy cows and sheep, but it also gives it in the amount of protein they each contain and then how much is digestible protein. From 14% to 24%, and digestible from 13.1% to 20%. Now the question I need to ask is this. How much 'digestible' protein is needed for a milking goat? Do we go by total protein or by digestible protein?

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #39 10/31/07, 01:56 PM

In a perfect world digestable protein in your total mixed ration (Everything they eat) is the best way to save money and still offer everything your milker needs. But considering the vast differences in even the protein and energy of even alfalfa pellets or oats that I get compared to what you can get, you are guessing when a book says that it WILL have this much. It's about averages. And most really good forms of energy that are cheaper aren't avaliable to me here in a safe form, and protein forms like cottonseed meal I can't in good conscience feed to goats who produce milk. Vicki

hoofinitnorth · #40 10/31/07, 03:12 PM

You can always have your feed tested, which works well if you always buy large quantities from the same supplier (as some livestock folks do for hay - buying in tons for the whole season/year). The tests will show digestible protein, etc. and a whole host of other stuff that helps you balance your rations.

My books aren't here yet. I couldn't find Considine's Dairy Goat Judging Techniques for as cheap as advertised after all. Spring Creek said they had it on their site but when I ordered I got an email several days later saying they were out of print and they didn't have any more. I had to get one for around $35 from Amazon (used). *sigh*