would someone mind answering MY question?

homebirtha · #21 09/03/07, 08:32 AM

I would recommend doing a fecal right away. There is a lot of controversy about using on DE as a wormer. Some say it works, some have had problems. I wouldn't use it as my sole wormer without doing regular fecals. One thing you can do right now it check their eyelids. Are they pale or are they bright pink? If they're pale, you probably have a worm problem. That would explain the low milk production and the skinny goats. Honestly, that's my first guess as to what's going on.

Mixing your own feed can be a good way to go, if you don't have something good you can get locally. But honestly, I would wait until you're a little more knowledgable about your goats before you try mixing your own feed. Read the fiascofarm website. Get a few goat books and read read read.

This is a nice place to talk about management techniques, but you will get so many different opinions and there is no way to know who on here really knows what they're talking about.

Check eyelids, get fecals done, and go from there.

pookshollow · #22 09/03/07, 08:37 AM

Minerals - you can buy loose minerals for dairy cattle, those are good for goats too. That's what I use, and I also buy Windsor Hi-Boot Salt that has added copper and zinc. Also meant for dairy cattle.

Feed is as individual as goat owners. I can get wonderful second cut alfalfa hay, so I don't need to feed alfalfa pellets. Sometimes I do, on the milkstand, because it slows down the eating!

I'm not right now, because it was getting expensive. Mine get a 16% dairy ration (again for cows

), amount adjusted to their lactation. I feed the alfalfa hay in controlled amounts, morning and night - during the day, all but the bucks are out to feed on browse as they will, then around supper, they come in and the bucks go out for a few hours. Once they've cleaned up their alfalfa, they get first cut grass/alfalfa for overnight.

I have one thin doe - Alpine. She was tiny and thin when we got her at three months, and she's always been thin. Her 5 month old doeling is also tiny and fairly thin. It's just them. Sara's coat was looking a little dull a while ago, so I dewormed her, upped her BOSS for a while, and she's looking much glossier. No fatter though!

trnubian · #23 09/03/07, 09:03 AM

Vicki really does know what she is doing and I know I can be hard to understand at times too. Lack of time sometimes causes problems.

But sometimes some posts are hard to read and decipher, I know what you mean. I just have to read them a few times to get the jest of things.

Let me just say this one thing. EVERYONE has a different way of managing their animals. No way is the hard and fast RIGHT way.

Where you live has a lot to do with what you can and can't do, and what works for your animals. The main thing that most good breeders and owners look to do is to feed their goat to get the maximum genetic potential out of that animal ALONG with this way being as natural as possible, as cheap and possible, and to have the animal as healthy as possible. Management is 99% of productivity and health or the lack there of.

From my 9-10 years of experience raising and showing dairy goats I have found that a good 16-18% protein works the best for my milkers regardless of age. I have used a 2-4% fat on them as well and have found that 4% works best for me. For young stock (kids) I us a 17-20% protein and a 4% fat. Works great. Just don't overfeed the grain, the kids should grow well on milk and alfalfa hay or pellets and a minimal amount of grain. I average about 2 lb. a kid once on full feed. Just watch if they are getting fat, if they are back off the grain if not up the grain. All kids are different. Give your kids milk as long as possible. It's just to their benefit and they grow so much better on it. Besides, it's a cheap feed.

As far as nutrient values are concerned in grains here is a good place to go http://www.ingredients101.com/alfpellet.htm
That link is in my favorites.

Alfalfa is high in its Calcium levels in comparison to its phosphorous levels (so is clover). Most grains are high in phosphorous compared to their calcium levels. You want at LEAST 2 to 1 calcium to phosphorous ratio. If not 3, 4, or even 5 to 1, no higher than that though. (Grass hay has a much lower calcium level.) **Calcium is what helps to make that milk).

Alfalfa is a great milk maker, clover is also a great milk maker, you just have to be really careful that the clover doesn’t mold as it then becomes toxic. I know many people who have their goats milking very well on grass hay. It’s all in how the grain, hay, minerals, and a healthy immune system work together. If you can get the right combination of all the above it isn’t going to matter what type of hay you feed.(As long as it is clean and not dusty, moldy or old.) Let’s just be realistic here and say that everyone simply cannot afford to feed alfalfa hay and or pellets. Their goats do just as well without them. But if you CAN get the alfalfa then by all means do so, it has been proven to be one of the bet feeds for dairy animals, plain and simple.

A good goat made loose mineral is a must have for healthy animals. If you are feeding alfalfa hay then a mineral with a 2 to 1 calcium ratio is good. If you are feeding grass hay you need to help make up the difference in calcium with minerals. (You can also get certain concentrated pellets that have high calcium contents that you can use to help up the calcium in the goat’s diet.) But loose minerals are a must have. It helps them with their overall health and therefore production. Making the animals actually cost less in lesser vet bills or the like. I LOVE the mineral I found at Rural King. It’s in a white tub labeled simply Rural King goat minerals. My goats are doing awesomely on that stuff. They are SOO shiny and I have never had healthier animals than when using this stuff. I also recommend Golden Blend minerals as a second to the stuff I use. They are both very similar. They need a loose mineral, because their tongues are just not big enough to lick off enough minerals they need. It would take them a LONG time to do so and they usually tire before hand. (Unlike cattle who have no problems with those big old tongues.

) Goats will not gorge themselves on loose minerals (the exception being if they have not had any for a long time and you put out some really good ones. They WILL eat a lot of them for the first week or two until they get a good balance up of what they have been missing. So expect that.) But otherwise, they will only eat what they need and no more. An 8 lb. bucket here lasts me 2 months or more.

Like I said before no grain or grain combination is the one and only way to feed goats. It’s an individual preference for what works best for you and your budget. You are not going to find any one grain that is 16% or higher. You have to use a combination of grains, highly concentrated pellets, or certain meals like soybean meal in order to increase protein in your feed.

BOSS is a good additive, but it IS expensive. HOWEVER, if only used in small quantities it really isn’t that bad. (It should not be used in large quantities due to its EXTREMELY high fat content.)

Barley is a great replacement or compliment for corn, it’s just really expensive here in IN. In other places it’s one of the cheaper grains. Corn should not be used as the sole grain in a ration as it tends to cause problems such as bloat, founder, and some other things. It is good in moderation, just not alone.

Oats are good to use in a feed ration. They are higher in protein and fat than corn. They are about equal to protein and fat as barely (which if used should be steam rolled or cracked in order to get the most bang for your buck so to speak, same goes with corn.) The only problem with oats is that they are fairly low energy wise. Barely is much higher energy wise.

As far as how MUCH grain to give them that will depend on the doe, your grain ration, and how much milk that does is producing. I personally don’t go by lb. I go by what the doe or kid needs (by body condition) and then I find out how much they are needing by weighing how much I am feeding. Each animal is different and will need more or less than another animals. Go by body condition, not what it says to feed in some book. The book numbers are averages. Also if your grain is low in protein and fat you will feed more of it than a higher protein and fat feed. If your hay is poorer quality you will feed more grain too.
I will give you my grain ration and you can do with it what you like. It has worked well for me for this long and all the people around here use it or a very similar ration and their goats are doing very well too.

For 41 lb. of grain (16.7% protein, 4% fat). (Can feed to milkers and kids)
14 lb. whole oats
14 lb. craked corn
9 lb. ProVider 38 **
2 lb. BOSS
2 lb. Shredded Beet Pulp.

**ProVider38 is a dairy cattle pellet that is 38% protein that when mixed with other grains can be used to formulate high or low protein feeds depending on how much you use in a feed ration. It is a KENT product. I buy mine at my local elevator. Here is a link to the KENT website if you want to take a look. http://www.kentfeeds.com/Product-Selector.aspx

I mix this feed by hand. It is a dry feed. No liquid molasses or oils, just dry. They goats eat it very well. It costs me about $9 per 50 lb. That isn’t terrible, to me and if I were to just feed plain cleaned oats it would cost me upwards of $10 anyway. So to me it is very economical. If you have any other questions I would be very happy to help. I can also help you formulate a feed ration that is the protein and fat you want if you would like. Just let me know. I hope I have helped a little.

gryndlgoat · #24 09/03/07, 09:10 AM

Just a heads up-

For those of you running around with those little one or two lb boxes of Arm and Hammer and having to be stingy with the baking soda- Check your local feed store or Tractor Supply. I can buy 25 kg (55 lb) bags of feed grade baking soda for $9 (or the cost of 9 tiny boxes at the dollar store). You can put out a huge bucket for the goats (just make sure it's out of the rain) that will last for several weeks. You can easily give it free choice at this price.

lonelyfarmgirl · #25 09/03/07, 12:02 PM

man oh man, thanks so much, especially laura. I may contact you with somemore specific questions. The nearest rural king to me is martinsville, so I will go check out what they have. thanks again everyone!

trnubian · #26 09/03/07, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonelyfarmgirl

man oh man, thanks so much, especially laura. I may contact you with somemore specific questions. The nearest rural king to me is martinsville, so I will go check out what they have. thanks again everyone!

You are welcome!

If I were you I would go ahead and pick up a bottle of Ivomec Cattle Injectable while you are there. Even if you are using DE a good worming at LEAST once a year will not hurt them and you will most likely see an big improvement in feed conversion, growth patterns, and milk production. Once you get it home give it to the ORALLY (with a needless syringe). It's 1 cc per 50 lb. but if you have to guesstimate weights give them MORE wormer than you think they should have. (If your doe weighs 130 lb. but you aren't sure if she may weigh more give her enough to do a 140 lb. goat.)

Thanks for the heads up grydlgoat! That's a good deal.

ozark_jewels · #27 09/04/07, 09:14 AM

Worms. You cannot put weight on a doe with worms and thats what you have.

There are LOTS of parasites that DE doesn't get. Some goats are very susceptable to worms and it drags them down much faster than most other animals. You need to get a wormer that works well in your area(check out Ivomec or Cydectin, NOT safeguard or Valbazen), and worm your does. They probably came from the previous owner with a load of worms. Please worm these girls. Then I would reccomend drying off the thin ones and work slowly on getting them in shape for breeding. They should probably get a Bo-Se shot as well.
What type of loose mineral are you feeding now??

Lots of good answers here on this thread.

lonelyfarmgirl · #28 09/08/07, 04:36 PM

sorry for the delay, my tower is down.

I have ivomec, as I use it for my dogs. I will give them all some. Then I probably will dry off the thin one (starsong). the other one that is not so great looking is nursing a baby, so cant dry her off.

I found the mineral that laura mentioned at rural king, and am giving it to them as much as they want to eat twice a day. cant leave it in the pen.
had to fight them for it, though. them claimed it didnt exist, then their computer said they had it in stock, and it took them 20 minutes to find it, but I have it now.

the feed they have been on is a pre-mixed, with oats, corn, goat chow and molasses. I had been mixing a little alfalfa pellets, and BOSS to it, per the instruction of the previous lady.
so I bought 150# alfafla pellets, 100# oats, 50# of corn, and 15# of BOss. I'll mix all this together so they can have molasses free feed, and more alfalfa, although starsong hates alfalfa. I hope she might like this different kind. It smells better.

what is Bo-Se?

I know the baby has has her shots. the lady gave them to her for me when she disbudded.

I will keep the updates coming. thanks all.

farmergirl · #29 09/08/07, 05:10 PM

If I were you, I would lay hands on any and every book ever written about goat husbandry that you can find. You're getting some great advice here, but none of us can write out a complete care of goats book and post it here to share. I have jumped in with both feet to several ventures that I had little to no knowledge of and managed just fine by reading books and picking the brains of anyone who would pay me the time of day. Speak up at the feed store, and the local BBQ joint, at church, wherever. Let others know what you're dealing with and I bet you'll find some folks with similar interests and experiences that can lend you some advice based on the environment in your local area.

hoofinitnorth · #30 09/08/07, 05:38 PM

lonelyfarmgirl - I am right there with you. We newbies need to stick together! lol

LOTS of helpful people on this site but as many tell us, they all do it differently with vastly different results. You just have to find what works for YOU and YOUR goats. Real helpful eh? It's true though! lol

Can you get your skinny goat to a vet to have her checked out? I worry about a thin animal and when they aren't giving much milk, I worry that whatever is ailing them is so bad that it's showing up systemically enough to affect production - an early sign of more trouble to come.

Hang in there! I'm reading with interest and just sorry I don't have answers to share (yet)!

oberhaslikid · #31 09/08/07, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonelyfarmgirl

I use DE religiously and so did the lady before. If there is a parisite that DE wont kill, I am not aware of it. Is there? and what would I use to take care of it?

My ID square on my posts states I am in indiana.

One sannen, two alpines in milk and an alpine doeling, 3 1/2 months old.

yes they get browse, but it is limited. I have a moveable pen that I move through the woods and underbrush, plus I cut additional browse for them everyday. I just got them in April of this year.

So, if I started feeding the baby calf manna (born mid-may) would I be able to breed her this year? say in november?

I wouldnt breed that baby untill she is a year old or at least 100 lbs.There can be birthing problems and death if they are too young or too small.If she is bred at 1 year then she will be 1 1/2 when she kids and you know she will be big enough to have a baby. I tried the 8 months thing and will never do it again.This is my Opinion.

lonelyfarmgirl · #32 09/14/07, 10:23 AM

well, I have the loose minerals, they are all eating it, I switched their food to a very similar, but non-molasses to what they had before, and I am drying off the skinny one. I will worm when I get paid.
I will update as soon as I have new news. thanks all!

deafgoatlady · #33 09/14/07, 12:04 PM

I would keep using the D.E. That what I use that everyday along with herbal wormer that I use and use the chemical wormers once a year and it works out great. I use my own recipe custom made feed from the feed store that I tell them to mix it for me. I would use beet pulp and that helps them to gain weight. The D.E. will keep the lice, mites, fleas, flies away from the goats. I would keep using it.. Along with chemical wormers or herbal wormer. If u are just using the chemical wormer. I would suggest u worm ur goats like maybe 3 times a year or more on depends on them.

DixyDoodle · #34 09/17/07, 05:59 AM

I wish that some store in my area would carry pre-mixed goat feeds. All I can find is Sweet Goat at the TSC and it turned out to be a cheap looking alfalfa pellet (or feed pellet, not quite sure as TSC feeds are notorious for NOT listing the ingredients on bags) with a bit of cracked corn, covered with molasses....in other words, a sweet feed. NO other goat mixes available that I can find. So I mix my own.

I have Pygmies, Dwarf goats, and one Nubian. They aren't lactating, so what would you suggest for a feed for goats (including bucks) that I can feed to them for the winter?

Right now, I mix approx 3 scoops alfalfa, 1 corn, 1 oats, 1 barley, and 1/2 BOSS, thinking maybe adding more BOSS for winter. They also get free choice hay. Think maybe I'll try that baking soda thing also, first time I've heard that one, but it sounds interesting.

Am I understanding right that most dairy cattle feeds are safe for goats? Or only to be fed for lactating goats? Can a certain kind of cattle feed be fed to non-lactating goats in the off-season? I'm not sure, I have no idea what cattle feed generally contains in comparision to goat feed (which I mentioned is nowhere to be found here)? I would love to have a "generic" mixed feed that I could just add one or two things to. Not sure if this is practical or safe though.

trnubian · #35 09/17/07, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DixyDoodle

I wish that some store in my area would carry pre-mixed goat feeds. All I can find is Sweet Goat at the TSC and it turned out to be a cheap looking alfalfa pellet (or feed pellet, not quite sure as TSC feeds are notorious for NOT listing the ingredients on bags) with a bit of cracked corn, covered with molasses....in other words, a sweet feed. NO other goat mixes available that I can find. So I mix my own.

I have Pygmies, Dwarf goats, and one Nubian. They aren't lactating, so what would you suggest for a feed for goats (including bucks) that I can feed to them for the winter?

Right now, I mix approx 3 scoops alfalfa, 1 corn, 1 oats, 1 barley, and 1/2 BOSS, thinking maybe adding more BOSS for winter. They also get free choice hay. Think maybe I'll try that baking soda thing also, first time I've heard that one, but it sounds interesting.

Am I understanding right that most dairy cattle feeds are safe for goats? Or only to be fed for lactating goats? Can a certain kind of cattle feed be fed to non-lactating goats in the off-season? I'm not sure, I have no idea what cattle feed generally contains in comparision to goat feed (which I mentioned is nowhere to be found here)? I would love to have a "generic" mixed feed that I could just add one or two things to. Not sure if this is practical or safe though.

Your mix sounds pretty good to me. It may need a bit of an adjustment and I suggest you get a scale as different grains weigh different ammounts and therefore without a scale you really don't know how much you are feeding of each grain.

If you use this mix (as close as I could guess you wanted from your description.)
3 lb. Alfalfa Pellets
1 lb. corn
1 lb. Oats
1/2 lb. of BOSS

You have a 14.9% Protein feed wich is VERY close to 15%. That should be plenty of protein for nonlactating animals.

Yes you can feed cattle feeds to goats. Just be SURE there is no urea in the feed. That is toxic to goats.

lonelyfarmgirl · #36 09/21/07, 12:15 PM

ok, so Ive wormed with 2 different kinds of wormers, and am drying off the skinny one. she doesnt seem to be gaining weight though. how long does it take to dry off? is there a procedure for this?
Is there anything else I can do?thanks

deafgoatlady · #37 09/21/07, 12:58 PM

Well You could milk her this way I did. I would milk her once a day for a week then every other day for a week then do twice in a week then once time then let her go then watch her closely if the udder gets bigger then milk her one time. But Alpine is very heavy milkers. It will be hard. There is ANOTHER option that u can buy "fastrack" That will help her mantaining her weight and wont get fat.. U can buy it from hoegger's and it is called Rumin Plus. It is same thing like Fastrack..

doulanobles · #38 09/21/07, 04:12 PM

Trnubian, what would you add to the 14.9% protein mix once the doe is bred, then lactating?

The above listed mix or alfalfa pellets, corn, oats and BOSS is the mix i was going to use with free choice grass hay, free choice baking soda and mineral mix, plus their browse. They'll be bred sometime soon ( fingers crossed) so what should i change then? Or should I just up the amount?

trnubian · #39 09/22/07, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doulanobles

Trnubian, what would you add to the 14.9% protein mix once the doe is bred, then lactating?

The above listed mix or alfalfa pellets, corn, oats and BOSS is the mix i was going to use with free choice grass hay, free choice baking soda and mineral mix, plus their browse. They'll be bred sometime soon ( fingers crossed) so what should i change then? Or should I just up the amount?

I would feed that mix to the does until they freshen, then SLOWLY add calf manna to the mix (Over a two week period). Work up to making your mi for your lactating does this:

3 lb. Alfalfa Pellets
1 lb. Corn
1 lb. Oats
1 lb. Calf Manna
1/2 lb. BOSS

Calf Manna is expensive, so if you can find a good beef cattle pellet or dairy cattle pellet that is high in protein (Like 25% or higher) you could use that in place of the calf Manna.

doulanobles · #40 09/22/07, 12:32 PM

Thank you! You all can now ignore my other post with the same question!

Our local feed store doesn't have calf manna but does have a dairy cattle pellet with I think 38% protein.