Does anyone really make $ on their Boer herd?

I am just starting a boer herd. So far I have one adult doe, and her buck kid. They are both full blood. I plan to pick up a few full blood or high percentage does to breed to my buck when he is mature enough.
I also have a Nigerian herd, with one herd sire that often throws kids that are too large for my Nigie girls. I can not decide whether to breed this doe that I have back to her kid and accept the culls, or to breed her to this Nigie and get the mixed breeds to sell to market? Anyone do something like this? I do not want to have to go outside of my clean herd for a stud, and risk CL or CAE (which many of my neighbors have). I also don't want another Boer buck. Thanks in advance

All of the comments knocking Boers in this thread are a direct result of the fact that the high-dollar breeder/show market has taken the American animal so far away from its roots in Africa. Low milk production -- that is an AMERICAN trait, bred in as breeders went for a certain udder to have that "show" look. Culls with udders producing less milk, of course, were also sold in this quest. Failure to thrive is also an AMERICAN-bred trait that is a direct result of NOT culling your animals for defects because each is supposedly worth $500 and up. Large head and chest in proportion to the body is an AMERICAN-bred trait, again so the animal will show well.

Notice any consistencies here? "Show" and "money" are ruining the Boer goat as a FARMING animal here in the USA, by taking the animal far, far away from the hardy, range-tough, near-wild Boer goats that roam over thousands of acres, surviving and kidding ON THEIR OWN on African farms. The animals are gathered twice a YEAR there, when they are wormed and market kids and culls are separated out. A far cry from here in the USA, where we have folks worming and clipping hair and trimming hooves every month.

Perhaps it is natural, or what happens when a farm animal becomes largely a pet. But I sure wish the ABGA, in particular, would wise up, because Boers are getting eclipsed now by Kikos and especially Savannahs among legitimate FARMERS. And it really doesn't have to be that way, except that the American animal is being bred farther away from farming and toward "idn't he cute?" with every generation.

There are so many bad genetics out there now, it'd take a decade to clean them up, if the will was there to do it. Which right now, it ain't. Why should it be, when there is a boatload of newbies every year plunking down $500 and up for show kids that wouldn't last 3 weeks on a real farm?

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Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

I think a lot of what JimS says is true. Not just for market goats, but for ALL animals used for show. When you look at how market steers are fitted her in Colorado, vs how they do in Texas, it's a whole different animal. Here, the goal is to get a much hair on the animal as possible so they look very beefed out. Whoopee. You don't eat hair, nor bone. The judges here only pick the animals with tons of hair, and mostly Angus. I've personally watched them walk by cross breeds and not even bother to make suggestions to the kids showing them.

We sell our 100% kids for 100.00, 75% kids for 75.00 and so on to 4H members. They usually bring $1 per pound on the market. I'd LOVE to get 500 for one, but not if you have to mess with the genetics like some are doing. They are a hardy breed, and they do gain fast if given the correct feed. I don't think they need to be heavily grained like a lactating dairy doe, for sure! Keep those ideas coming, maybe some of us will learn. Jan in Co

Great Thread! There is alot of useful information here! Jim is totally right about the pet/show market ruining the boer reputation as a farm animal. The two just dont have the same goals, and yet they are supposed to be the "ideal" animal in the show ring. Quite a disconect. There are good boer bucks, and I plan on using them for my mixed dairy does. You just have to buy for farming not showing...and it will usually mean a less expensive animal due to the above mentioned. The boer show ring is an asset still since it allows an option for the careful meat goat farmer and the price is not the show price since these are not the same animal. For this I am truly thankful! I would not be using boer bucks if I had to pay 500 and up! The meat market just does not pay for that. There are nice meaty bucks that wont make it in the show ring for under 250 and that is where I am staying.

The problem is that input costs have no measurement in the show ring. No one ever asks what were the costs of producing this animal! Just the finished outcome and the ASSUMPTION they were produced on a cost effective program??? Fun to watch, but I dont plan on entering into that ring anytime soon.

OF

Yep. If you just look at the amount of grain they push into those goats, there goes a FARMER'S profits right there.

Jan in CO, I used to raise Hereford/Simental cross calves back in the 80s, when Simmental bulls were brown and white. Those buyers would go for the black hair all the way, when my beefier, better-gaining calves had brown hair. I got docked every time.

I went out of the cattle biz in the '90s. I recently got the chance to tour several Simmental breeders' farms here. ALL OF THE BULLS THEY NOW OFFER ARE BLACK! This in a span of a decade. The breeders are responding to the market.

But not so of Boer breeders. Not at all. They are responding to the show ring, which is way out of step with FARMERS and RANCHERS. The breed has such a bad rep here for poor health and high production costs that they are actually on the verge of being discounted by FARMERS in preference for the Savannah and Kiko.

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Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

Jim, are you saying that your profit for the year is normally only around $300? That doesn't sound very good to me for all the work involved. Hmmm....I think I have to consider what my profits can be before I decide how much money to spend on my goats. I know show goats are where the money is, if I can tap into the market. I might be willing to spend more if I can get $500 for a kid!! I think to stick with the commercial markets, you have to stay at the bottom on expenses so I agree with you on that. However, the only thing I see wrong with the show crowd is the tendency to keep animals that they shouldn't. That doesn't mean all of them do that though. Also, I think that you have to expect to spend more to make more. That holds true in almost any business I can't think of. I know of some folks around here that are selling their goats for at leat $2000 each. Of course, they really work the show string and have for years. I have seen their animals and the are truly superb. People will pay this for these goats b/c they want to win the shows. Show stock is always where the most money is but you are going to pay a lot and have to work at it. I don't think there is anything wrong with either path. As long as we keep honesty and good ethics at the top of our priority list, there should be room for both farmers and show goat breeders. Maybe, Jim, the show industry needs people like you in it, who really care about the breed and where it is headed. The only way to close the gap and make changes is to be a part of it. LOL....not what you want to hear probably!! Right now, I am in a position where I have a handful of standout does but my buck is under par. I am actually breeding my stock down with this buck. He isn't the worst I've seen but I just have to be honest. Anyway, what am I to do? I am using him now and I'll keep the best of the kids out and cull muck of my starter stock and then I'll go purchase a really impressive buck with all the right genetics. That way I can show the first generation that is produced from him and whatever does I have. I'll start a website and maybe I can do well. At least there are production sales where the animals bring premium prices. If you buy at them there, it becomes easier to get to sell at those sales. We'll see, in a couple of years, how I'm talking then. LOL!! This is our plan though. No matter what you do, goats are work and expense and the profit is not reliable. That is how I see it!! What a very interesting thread!!

A friend of mine told me he makes about $60k per year with meat goats. He buys 300 to 500 goats in South Texas takes them home (SE Oklahoma), puts a few pounds on them, then sells them. He will go through about 4 batches a year.

georgec, I want to see your friend's financials, including labor costs, land and equipment, and feed and meds. Your friend may GROSS $60K a year, but I highly doubt he is making that as profit.

MilknHoney, you need to remember a few other things about my operation.

1.) I am in exceptional drought here, so I have less than half the normal stocking rate.

2.) There is little work in it for me, since I do not farm my goats using the intensive management procedures you will find on the forum here. That means no vaccinations, no daily feeding 8 months a year, no hoof trimming, unassisted birthing, no bottle babies, etc. I know my goals for the herd. They make them, or they go. My hay is cut off my own place on shares, and I generally sell half of my share to cover the cost of the half I am feeding. So like I say, in A NORMAL YEAR there would be 2 cuttings and I would come out money ahead by selling bales, plus get free hay to feed. This year, I got one, short crop. Hay would have to be cut, goats or not. Having it cut saves me a lot of equipment overhead and time. So my main job is to feed the LGD every evening. The goats fend for themselves in the pastures.

3.) Last, I have the goats to clean up the back pastures, which will become a subdivision in the future. By having the goats do that, I over time save $60 per man-hour in land clearing costs.

4.) It is not a big-income biz, which I am glad you figured out from the start. I do it as a sideline, because I like the farming lifestyle, because it cleans my place off, because it provides me exercise, and because most of the functions I do with goats I would have to do without them just to keep the place up anyway. I have had goats 17 years now, but they never have been a big-income area for me. Of course, I have a small farm. Financially, I did better as a small farm with cow-calf than I have with goats. But then, I am only in Year 2 of my 5-year goat plan, and the drought has severely crimped me. I make the vast majority of my money off-farm, anyway, and I know for a fact I will never be self-sufficient on this place. I like stuff like a/c too much!

By way of comparison, I read awhile back that one needs around 375-400 beef cattle, at 90% live calf weaning rate, to return $25,000 IN PROFIT for use of the farmhouse. A 700-pound calf here brings about $800-1,000. Let's say it's $800. It would take 11 meat goats at $750 to top that one calf, so we could extrapolate that the farmn would need 4,400 does at 90% live weaned rate to make that $25,000.

Most non-business folks grossly underestimate their production costs. I count in everything, every $5 and $10 that goes on by, including land and labor costs.

Check these out in planning your biz...

http://www.jackmauldin.com/planning.htm

http://www.jackmauldin.com/beware.htm

I also read a great article online about the fallacy of thinking there's more money in show goats by spending more money, and how a meat goat producer can dig the farm into a hole by going that route. If I can find the link, I'll post it.

__________________
Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

And do look at this...

http://www.jackmauldin.com/high_maintenance.htm

__________________
Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

You can make a profit with Boer goats. Be advised that this, as with most enterprises, is not an easy matter. It requires that attention be paid.

We've found that direct sales to ethnic markets makes for our strongest income stream for meat goats. You have to find your customer, make sure you both understand the requirements, and then you have to produce it. This may not be for everyone. For instance, maintaining uncut bucks may not be something you care for, with the aroma, sexual behaviors, and aggression, plus your facilities must be able to support the certain degree of segregation that may be necessary. Unblemished may mean the goat isn't even allowed an ear tag. For some, you may get premium prices; more it is that you get guaranteed, steady income. This is tricky; you have to have a herd large enough to supply your customers once you get them.

As for the show goats, to be truly successful, you really, really need to know how to play the game. I don't say you can't succeed, but I do say the deck is stacked against you. I also say that if you rely on the ethics of the industry to give you a fair shake, you may be disappointed. Were you someone whose welfare was my concern, I would caution you greatly about getting into the business. Not to not do it, but to do it with your eyes wide open and your checkbook tightly held.

Because you will face those who are in it for the profit and don't really care how they do it. Of course, the following is hypothetical and I offer no proof. For instance, say that I have show goats, my own herd name, etc., etc., etc.,. My married daughter, now with a different last name, different mailing address, also has show goats, her own herd name, etc. My sister-in-law, also different last name, different mailing address, also has show goats, her own herd name. Three herds will make for an adequate show. That the goats actually share a pasture might not get noted. That if we compete, no matter who wins, my senior stud gets credit might not be noted. That it might be my champion buck that breeds the does and produces those champion youngsters we're taking to the shows rather than my daughter's younger buck who needs to build his rep as a show quality producing buck and thus increase his prices might not get noted. That her younger buck is taking over some of the breeding duties for the old man and that those kids going out under one name might belong to another might not get noted. That we take a look at a crop of kids, pick the most likely ones, and shift names to suit our needs might not get noted.

It might be that if one of our customers wants to get his marks going that we take members of our three flocks and go to a show he puts on. No matter whose goat wins the championship, my stud gets credit. If we make certain to take animals that we know are slightly inferior to the ones he bought, then he racks up even with a disinterested judge. If I am the judge, I can make it happen. If we require pre-registration, we will know the competition. You don't have to publicize these things widely, you know. If a newcomer tries, we may bring out the big guns, the best of the best, to make sure his goats don't win big to hold down the competition for our customer locally. I don't say that this actually happens, but it might.

It may be that some of the percentage does drop a kids with show conformation. Where the names get written, as a percentage or as a purebred? If I sell them as untried, unproven, and you think you're getting a deal on my best young stuff because my young stuff has a reputation, don't blame me when their kids aren't show quality. You need to buy better does, or do a better job of caring for your does, or you need to grain the youngsters better, or you need to work on your showmanship skills.

There are honest breeders. Maybe even most breeders are honest. You'll find out, I guess. I of course am extremely ethical and honest; it's my wife's sister's husband that does these shady deals with their herd, which is separate and in no way connected with mine.

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American by chance, Republican by choice, and Southern by the grace of God

Wow Muskrat, have you been to a few Boer shows? I hate to support your hypothetical, but I know for a fact that some Boer breeders I know are making and investing good money doing just that. They have several "herds" and they have every kid in the family showing at the county fairs ect...the same goats for YEARS but different kids showing them. The children dont take the goats home even to train before the shows. Yeah, they invested thousands of dollars and alot of work on their herd, but dont try to beat them at the shows with your young 4h kid your child has paid $500 for and trained/fed all year. They have $2000 show goats winning year after year. I still buy my bucks for this farm because they have good extra stock that would not show well, but are great for my meat herd. Its his business, and he is protecting it. He has alot to loose if he does not win since he could never cover his costs if he had to sell his kids for MEAT. Which is very funny to me due to the fact they are MEAT GOATS...
OF

So much for teaching children ethics and principles through working with animals, huh?

Of course, it isn't just the Boers, it's just that the stakes are higher with them than with some other breeds. And it isn't just the goats. But good people are being driven out of the business and that's a shame. A breed of goats that had so much going for it has been ruined and that's a shame. I don't think there are enough people committed to rescuing the Boers anymore to turn things around for the breed and that's a shame.

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American by chance, Republican by choice, and Southern by the grace of God

Thanks to Muskrat and Ohio Farmer for once again reinforcing to me why I want NO PART WHATSOEVER of showing goats!!! That just isn't me, ethically or financially.

It's a much higher-risk endeavor than simply farming them with an eye toward least-cost production. People tend to focus on the price per animal and forget the inputs on show goats, like fancy trailers and animal show prep gear and motel rooms and meals and travel expenses and show fees and ... well you get the idea. Then, even after all that is paid, the results are basically in my view a POLITICAL deal at the end, which is why the Boers in the show wouldn't likely last 2 weeks on my farm (and I have some experience with that).

I have never seen people bicker so much as those show folks do, and it seems to me they work overtime to manufacture reasons why their goats are better than the other folks', and to instill inordinate fear into the hearts of goat owners about certain diseases and conditions, all in the name of making money.

Me, I like it simple. Here's my product. If it hits your target, I get paid higher than if it doesn't.

As far as making money with meat goats (in an honest fashion), if you really do a cost accounting and don't pull your punches on that, it is extremely hard to do, or else the average goat herd would be kept longer than 3 years. You read that correctly, the average person keeps their herd just 3 years before selling it off and moving on. Now, look at cattle farmers as an example. The average beef cow herd size in the U.S. is just 20-25 animals. Yet those cattle folks will keep their herds 15 years on average, and many keep them for a lifetime. There's a reason!

As far as I am concerned, there is no higher expert on meat goats than Dr. Frank Pinkerton, who travels the country doing goat seminars and consistently tells the crowd of newbies (to deaf ears), "I have made far more money talking about goats than I ever did owning or selling goats."

Read what he says about starting out...

http://www.meatgoats.com/rotator.php?art=2

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Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

MY personal experience is this...... boers and I do not get along. HAHA! I bought this herd in Oct of last year with such high hopes and lost my tail end. LOL! If it weren't for my dairy girls bringing up the rear, I'd be stuck. When I bought my diary girls I was frugal in my spending but knew what I wanted. Stocky large framed girls with decent pedigrees and I bought the best buck I could afford. Now, I've got one of my girls a finished champion (this is only my second year of showing and only attended 2 shows last year) and I've got a list of people that call me for milkers. Yes, you've gotta milk em and all that but in the end that's what worked for me. Last year I claimed my goats on my taxes and it showed I made a profit (above feed and hay not taxes and interest on my farm and stuff) but with these boers, that ate up ANY profit from last year. So now I'm back to square one with a husband who now REALLY hates goats as he's seen that I've lost my tail and it wasn't even my dairy girls' fault. Poor things.
And we don't live to far from one another I don't think and so I know the grounds you're talking. Boers are like cattle prices, the market fluctuates up and down on demand. It seems one can always sell a registered dairy girl in milk for at least $150 around here if not more depending on what it is and the pedigree. Just my two bits there......

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"Some people without brains do an aweful lot of talking..." The Scarecrow in Oz

http://freewebs.com/hickorystickfarms
My Blog: The Goat Farm

I haven't seen his books. He has goats coming and going all the time. I figure he wouldn't keep doing it if he wasn't making money. He also has several hundred acres of land. So lets say he buys 300 goats and he puts 30 pounds on each goat, at $1 per pound that is $9000. He doesn't feed grain, so he has no feed costs. I don't know all the specifics, but I can see how a person could do it, if you have a supply of young goats, and a market for them.