problems problems PROBLEMS....

Emilea, did I get this correctly -- that you aren't giving these goats any hay at all, just grain?! If that is correct, drop the grain and get some hay immediately! That's what's causing the scours! You will be lucky if you save any of them if you keep feeding them just grain! Once the scours stop, you could add a VERY SMALL amount of grain back into their diets. Goats are ruminants -- they were designed to eat roughage (hay, brush, etc.), and they don't do well on grain as their sole diet.

The scours means food is just going through them, rather than nourishing them (not to mention the dehydration), and thus they end up with deficiencies which are probably contributing to the other health problems (like the sores). You may end up losing this whole batch of goats (hopefully not!) but if you learn from this very rough introduction to goat-keeping, you should do fine.

Kathleen

oh no i have ONLY been feeding hay and corn the last week or so... no grain lately not for the sick ones.. i have them in another pin so they don't get the others any sicker.

My heart goes out to you! I'm new to goats, and I avoided most problems by READING the info online, and doing what the successful goat owners do.

I used Dimethox 40% from the first kids on the ground, 1cc/pound the first day and 0.5cc/pound for the next 4 days as a PREVENTATIVE to coccidia, and repeated every 21 days until weaning or around 4 months of age. The Dimethox is very bitter, so I water down white corn syrup to disguise the nasty taste, and either put it straight into the bottle or syringe it into the dam raised kid's mouths.

From what you've written, the diet doesn't ring too many bells, other than perhaps the babies were weaned a little soon. Not much you can do about that now, tho!

I learned the hard way by losing a buckling at 4 wks old . . . kids NOT born on your property are more fragile, not used to the particular "bugs" that live on your place, so no real immunity to them. For kids like this it is PREVENTION PREVENTION PREVENTION. After losing the little fellow I got with the program!

I also recommend getting Tetanus toxoid AND Tetanus antitoxin, Sharon can help you with ordering these. The tetanus bacteria produces toxins that kill kid goats rapidly and can kill older goats as well. They need two shots of 2cc of Tetanus toxoid 4 weeks apart to create immunity, and then yearly boosters of 2cc thereafter. The antitoxin is given after disbudding or castrating the bucklings, it breaks down the toxins the tetanus bacteria make on contact, and protects against further toxin formation for about 10 days. Anytime a goat gets a bad wound, or bleeds a lot from hoof trimming (I did that one too), a 2cc shot of antitoxin should protect from tetanus until the wound is healing up good.

Three weeks ago I lost two second freshener does from grain overload. It could have been prevented by simple management (fixing a funky gate latch) and KNOWLEGE. I do a lot of reading but didn't know that grain overload (five of them pigged down 50lb of chicken scratch) was an immediate emergency. The next day they all had scours, and that's when I took action . . . too late for two does, who left four orphans for me to try and feed. The reason I'm spelling this out is when you are new to goats, it can be "fatally" discouraging to have serious illness affecting so many goats at a time.

Goats, if managed properly, are healthy animals. They have a reputation for being super tough and eating garbage, but those are goats living wild in the barrios! Not dairy goats, who need intensive management.

This will sound terrible, but if you do have cocci, the sickest kids have already had the damage done and may not grow well or perform well as adults. Coccidia ruins the absorptive surface of their intestines pretty quickly. In your situation, I'd put my effort into the more "well" kids, as it may be too late for the others, just a lifetime of problems ahead for them.

This is a very rough start for you, and you aren't alone, many if not most learn the hard way. You just have to pick yourself up by the bootstraps and move on. Good luck to you!

__________________
It may be that our sole purpose in life is simply to be kind to others.

ok one of mine coughs all the time... even when not eating...

Probably pneumonia on the coughing, needs antibiotcs, LA 200.

If and when they all get well, I wouldn't get anymore goats for a while, even if they are offered to you for free. That's too many goats from too many places in too short a time, and they're too young to be exposed to all those germs from one another. JMHO.

I would cut the corn entirely right now.

Also, where do you feed the grain, what kind of a feeder? The hay, also?

What I would give for grain is lamb starter with a coccidiostat. It won't help the ones who have had bad cocci already, but it will help prevent further damage.

Not quite 3 months old...ah, the pleasures of not yet ready to be weaned kids being forced to adapt to a radically different diet quickly. You've got a train wreck -- acidosis, scours and a touch of pneumonia going.

Here is how I would attack the problems, based on prior experience with similar troubles:

I would agree on the LA 200 for simple pneumonia, but an oral sulfa drug ought to take care of most of the communicable diseases they are passing to each other as a result of extreme stress, and the cocci. Sulmet is one such. If TSC is your only quick recourse, they have aureomycin sulmet powder you can put in an electrolyte solution (Gatorade or Pedialyte for babies - sp? - works) and bottle or tube feed them. TSC #2202454

The only disease it won't fix is the orf (soremouth), which is a virus. They will be immune to it for a period of time of over a year after they all get it. The virus lives in soil and so they may have picked it up environmentally after they were severely stressed.

Feed them the sulfa and Gatorade or Pedialyte. Very important that they do NOT get dehydrated and that they have simple sugars to keep their energy up now, and Gatorade or Pedialyte will help with that. The only thing solid I'd feed them is dry green, good hay. Let them eat it at will. But nothing living green. And NO grains.

For the worms, if they are acute you need to use an injectable or pour-on dewormer and administer it ORALLY, with a syringe in the cheek, slowly over the tongue. Don't go too fast, or they will aspirate it into the lungs. I use ivermectin (Ivomec); others here prefer Cydectin.

From your messages, I think you need to be prepared emotionally to lose some and to strive valiently to salvage what you can. So get ready emotionally for loss, so you do not get down and let down your sick living goats when the first ones die. It sounds late in the game, but you probably can save most of them if you keep a clear head and do not let the illness overcome you.

If you ever intake young goats like this again, start them on a sulfa drug in the drinking water right off the bat, or give a shot of broad spectrum antibiotic (there are several) to get cocci and other bugs, cuz they will be stressed. Their feed needs to be dry hay and some limited pasture in their first days there, with a free-choice complete goat mineral like Sweetlix or other brand MADE ONLY FOR GOATS. No need to rush them onto grain, there are a number of ills caused directly by too much grain, especially in young goats. It acidifies the rumen.

Keep us informed of how things progress. Good luck.

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Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

they have a hay feeder that hangs on the inside of the barn.. (which we just cleaned and disinfected sunday) and they have feeding pans and a trough... how much of the LA 200 should i give?

they all seemed to be doing fine... until we had the sores on the mouth first then one tog got the scoures and he had cocci and we got him all fixed up and then the sore mouth spread to two others and then another togg got a big lunp in her throat and would eat and we had to take her to the vet and have fluid drained then she got better and then the alpines started with the scours and then it went to our alpines and now they are almost over it but our togg still has it bad and then the adopted goat saunen still kept her cough after a round of anitbo. everything is getting sick i have never had this much problem...

I hope you guys do not mind me adding in, I use Tylan 200 and have great results when it comes to respiratory problems.

I would also try to get the fortified B complex.

Fortified B complex, given side by side with the red cell, seems to help boost a goat that has gone anemic.

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Mary

Di methox is 1 cc per 10lbs first dose. Please double check dosages before giving them we all make mistakes.

Also there is no need to to worm or use coccidia prevention as soon as the hit the ground. Start at 3 weeks.

Patty

Lump on the throat that needed drained???

Look, I hate to say it, but if it were me, at this point, I would sell the whole lot wherever I could and get *one* good goat from a herd that has at least soem kind of notion of what disease control is, and put it in a section where these goats haven't been. I would also take care that it be 4-5 months old or more, preferably more. This is just my opinion, but if you just got them, and it sounds like CL, and soremouth, and god knows what else, could be going on here, start over new. It's sad, but you haven't had them for long. Give them back to the folks you got them from and start new. Sorry.

AAAARGH!! Thanks Patty TG I know the correct amount when I actually give it!

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It may be that our sole purpose in life is simply to be kind to others.

Wanted to add: Folks, this sort of scenario is why some goats are free or only $15 and others cost $150 or more, and why it is worthwhile to pay more from the right breeder. This is the sort of thing I was talking about when I said that you get what you pay for.

And it's very sad, because this girl does love these goats, but with CL, they are next to useless as far as sales. I am certain that she has already spent more money buying medicines and special feeds, etc than it would have cost to spend a little extra and get halfway decent stock that isn't riddled with disease.

The reason you're having so much trouble is because you got several goats from several places without really looking into the herds. Most look for a while and require certain test results be shown before even looking at the goats. (usually of CL, CAE, and Johne's diseases, possibly others). Sometimes you get lucky and have no problems. Sometimes you get one goat that contaminates your entire herd. Then hasty and usually inexpensive purchases will cost you more than a single, perfectly healthy happy animal from good bloodlines and from a reputable farm will.

The lump on the kid's throat could very well be a disease called CL, which is a herd ruiner. It's called the bane of the goat world. Very contagious. If you see another lump, have the fluid collected and send it in for testing. Separate all goats showing lumps from the rest of the herd ASAP, and have thier blood tested, and again in a month or so. If they show positive, cull them (butcher, please, don't spread the disease and make the animal suffer) IF it is CL, you have a couple options: Either butcher or PTS all goats showing sypmtoms or that test positive and do a complete barn extreme clean and hope all goes well with a start over (I've always wondered if dog kennel sanitizer, the stuff and concentration that kills parvo, would work for CL.) the bad thing about CL is that you could can keep all your goats alive, but never breed them or go to another person's house with sheep/goats or allow them over, go to sale barns, shows, etc to prevent spreading the disease. Beware that if you keep them alive, CL is a wasting disease that causes them to slowly die, and in my opinion, suffer. Also, CL is transmittable to people and other animals, not just goats... so you would have to wear long pants, boots, and gloves when going in to see your goats for fear of transmission... and your kids or elderly around you are more suceptible.

In my opinion, those are the responsible things to do to any CL herd. I'd do them to my own herd in such a situation. I'd rather do that than cause other herds ruin, too.

Of cource, it could just be a sliver or other thing, not even CL. Get them tested.

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Dona Barski

"Breed the best, eat the rest"

Caprice Acres

French and American Alpines. CAE, Johnes neg herd. Abscess free. LA, DHIR.

lump on an animal doesn't mean always cl. don't jump so fast with conclusions here. this poor girl was getting hit enough already. med recommendations are nice but given with correct dosages would be helpful too.

__________________
Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

People make mistakes in dosages...stuff happens it was caught in time. But it is why it is so important to check and recheck. I posted a forum to go to and there is another just goat forum dairygoatsplus. lots of good breeders on both and alot of the same people on both. This forum is great but the others are better for medical stuff.

Lots start the way you did and lots have the problems you are having. You need to decide if you are willing to soak more time energy and money into these guys. It sounds like they will never deveolp to the fullest. Its easy for us to sit on the outside and say get rid of them. Thats what I would say but in your shoes it would be very hard for me to do . I hate giving up and I get very attached very easy.

Good luck follow the recommendations and maybe you will have a chance. If you decide to sell once again cannot Sharon . She is from your state and can point you toward breeders.


Patty

Wow..you have your hands full. I hate it when I see a bunch of goats..especially babies..come from a bunch of different places into one farm. It like magnifies your chances of getting several undesireable diseases and problems.

I am a hay, browse, fresh water and plenty of minerals kinda owner. Especially for youngsters. I would ONLY give them the above until they reach a point of decent health again. And by that..I mean after they have gone for a month or so without incident..gradually put them on a grain mix..and keep them on the same one.

Sunshine is their friend. Dry places to lay are their friend. Clean water buckets are their friend. Plenty of space is their friend..to help keep the disease down.

I am with Suzanne in that I would not jump to the conclusion of CL on that throat. If you have sore mouth, I would think that is what I would be looking at. It might well be an internal sore..if so..in time..as the goat gets over the sore mouth..that might well go too. I would be concerned on whether or not that kid is eating .. or if its throat is too sore.

If you have taken the grain away...treated their diarhea, and given them some of the meds mentioned (please don't poke em all down them) and where you have them is dry and clean...you should start seeing a turn around in them in fairly short order. If you don't..we have misguided you...or there is too much damage done. Myself..I would hang in there and give them a chance. If ya don't over medicate..if you give them a chance to be a goat..and the other things above..I think you may well save some of them.

Best of luck. Stuff like this is tough. And I am always sorry to see someone starting out like this. Don't give up..don't buy anything new..and give them a chance.

i wish i hadn't paid very much for them... but i didn't spend less and 150 on any of them even my crosses... I wormed them soon as i got them first day and de-liced them first week... and thought i was taking all the preventive steps... but either way i can't get rid of them, my son is WAY to attached to them , if one dies i can say it ran away but not the whole heard... and yes, he throat had to be drained, she was butted by the stupid goat my brother left at my house and it made fluid build up and she couldn't eat so i had to get it drained... i have over 500 in vet bills without this last visit...

How are they doing today?

It may seem overwhelming to have so many to deal with at one time but hang in there.

emilea do you get all the info you got here sorted out or do you need more help? do you have a specific question?
very sorry for the rough start you have and i hope you will not loose too many.
please go to the breeder you said take so good care of her animals and ask her for help too. most breeders are more than willing to help out.

__________________
Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net