Why exactly is molasses bad?

southerngurl · #21 06/07/07, 01:38 PM

I mix equal parts oats, barley and BOSS , going a little extra heavy on the barley with the addition of some alfalfa pellets. My goats get a lot of forage too.

ForMyACDs · #22 06/07/07, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thequeensblessing

Vicki,
As I stated, it was my vet who gave me this information initially. He stated that small amounts of molasses are actually beneficial to goats, and that in larger, more frequently fed doses cause the problems. As with every issue in our own lives and the lives of our beloved livestock; All things in moderation.
I trust my vet. He's not selling anything but medical advice for my livestock, so he has no agenda. This is the exact advice/information/knowlege that he imparted to me. Simply because this woman works for a nutritional supplement company doesn't mean she can't be telling the truth. I would prefer to believe that there are some honest and knowlegable folks in the industry who actually care about the livestock they are feeding. I'm not so cynical as to think the world has an agenda and can't be trusted.

Unfortunately, a lot of where vets get their information from is the people who make these feeds. Vets don't get much information in vet school about nutrition......not much more than what you can find out on your own or what someone at a feed mill might know. In fact many vets refer their clients w/feeding troubles to a representative that they trust, and there are feed represtentatives that all they do is go to farms to "overhaul" feed programs etc.

The vet I work for SWEARS that Purina makes the best feed all around and recommends nothing else. Unfortunately, a lot of his information is VERY much outdated. Purina used to be the front-runner of the nutrition game, but they've been far outpaced by several others. Still, he has a feed rep that sells him his line of information and he refers farms to this person. I personally roll my eyes (as do a few of the customers more educated in this area) knowing that there are feeds out there far better than what he's recommending.

Even so......even HE knows that molasses isn't great as a feed additive and agrees that it's in there to mask poor quality grains, get picky eaters to eat and/or to satisfy the customer and recommends that people feed their livestock w/feeds containing little to no molasses. Unfortunately, Purina is one of the worst ones about packing their feeds w/molasses.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #23 06/07/07, 02:35 PM

more frequently fed doses cause the problems.
............................................

So molassas in the grain and minerals fed everyday of their lives isn't too much molassas?

We grain our does twice a day, we feed our minerals free choice all the time....nutrition in goats is frequent.

I am glad you have a vet who is great, I also do, but she doesn't know beans about goat nutrition. Vicki

big rockpile · #24 06/07/07, 02:48 PM

Ok learning I didn't know about molassas.I use to give a supplement that was heavy on molassas oly thing I ever worried about was them getting too fat.

Now as far as Rabbit Feed its been 40 years since I've mixed any but I don't remember putting any oils or filler in the mix,not much molassas.Mostly Alfalfa Meal,Ground Corn,Soybean Meal,Salt,Block Binder.

big rockpile

Idahoe · #25 06/07/07, 02:48 PM

I called the coop that mixes my feed, and the mix includes salt, copper and other trace minerals as well as the corn, oat and barley. The previous owner (who designed the mix himself) couldn't get the goats to eat the whole feed (they picked out all the yummy grains) without so many pounds of molasses per ton to make it "cling" to the grain better.

thequeensblessing · #26 06/07/07, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

more frequently fed doses cause the problems.
............................................

So molassas in the grain and minerals fed everyday of their lives isn't too much molassas?

We grain our does twice a day, we feed our minerals free choice all the time....nutrition in goats is frequent.

I am glad you have a vet who is great, I also do, but she doesn't know beans about goat nutrition. Vicki

I suppose you and I just raise our goats differently. We never had any problems from following the advice of people like my vet, or Jackie. It always worked well for us. Our goats were always healthy and we never had any nutritional/metabolic problems. Equally important, your method obviously works well for you. Perhaps there is more than one way to properly feed a goat. We can just leave it at that.

MamaDee · #27 06/08/07, 08:59 AM

Unfortunately, Purina is one of the worst ones about packing their feeds w/molasses>>>>

Arrrrrrgh! We just switched to Purina from the last supposedly inferior feed we were getting from our Farm and Home. I thought Purina was better! What are the other brands that are better? I was hoping not to mix my own grain, since we only have a few goats. We do supplement with alfalfa pellets for the milkers and they all get a bit (1 cup total for all 5 goats) of beet pulp.

Also, I just checked our beet pulp and it says it has molasses!

And am I correct in assuming, Vicki, that you would recommend NO molasses?

Thanks!

Dee

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #28 06/08/07, 10:33 AM

Yeah Dee, my feeding program is really straight forward...alfalfa pellets for protein and calcium (if I lived where there was good alfalfa hay and it wasn't $24.99 for a nasty 90 pound bale, I would feed it instead) the milkers...and everyone here is either a milker or a this spring born kid (and bucks

no dry yearlings allowed..gets oats...oats for carbs, calories. I am using veggy oil for fat with the last batch of flaked corn very questionable.

My old grain mix is over $10 per 50 now, no way can I afford that, oats are still under $8. My old grain mix was the Equine Dry (corn oats barley etc. not a byproducts feed tag) from Pilgrims...Bluebonnet here sold by tractor supply has dry mixes also...Dry means no molassas and horse means better quality grains and minerals and levels of minerals above what they can put in goat feeds. Moving to horse grains you also get excellent mineral mixes in them not the 'calf pack' that is in most cow, hog and goat feeds.

I do feed my babies Pilgrims 16% meat goat pellet, it is a byproducts feed tag, but it is mostly alfalfa meal, grains and has a cocci drug and ammonium chloride in it for the bucklings I raise each year. It's my one convience feed I use, I also use this on the adult bucks, during rut and right after.

Everyones diet is heavy in alfalfa pellets, all have minerals out free choice, and of course water, grass hay (no more will be purchased this year unless we have a hurricane).

At some point you just have to say, this is what I am going to do, this is what I am going to spend and I can't do anymore...adding this and that and having 3 minerals out and bicarb etc....simply can no longer be justified. Vicki

bluefish · #29 06/08/07, 04:33 PM

So, if rabbit pellets won't work, what to do? She gets forage and/or grass hay all day this is just at the milking stand to help milk production a bit. There is grain mixed in here too, but is it still too much molasses? My mix is 1 part barley, 3 parts alfalfa or rabbit pellets. What do you think?

moonspinner · #30 06/08/07, 07:52 PM

I've never heard of Pilgrims. Maybe not available in my area? If you had to pick the best commercial mix what would it be?

harplade · #31 06/09/07, 10:32 AM

I believe that For My ACDs said that not many vets learn about nutrition. I've been pleased to know that one of the undergrad tracks for students wanting to enter LSU Vet School is Nutrition. I'm not sure how many of them are doing it but maybe there is beginning to be a recognition of the importance of nutrition. I'm certainly going to begin asking my vets what they did their undergraduate studies in...

Also, Vicki, what minerals do you use? I'm not sure if I understood you to say that a little molasses in the minerals is ok but not in feed or is there a mineral supplement that is less molasses or do your goats get all their minerals through the horse feed, etc?

Thanks,
Harplade

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #32 06/09/07, 11:49 PM

I feed Bluebonnet Tech Master complete...it does have some dried molassas in it, but it's about 1% and is the only source of iron in it. We feed grey minerals here because we are iron ore heavy, and iron depletes the copper we so need. The mineral is made for cattle, horses and goats and comes with a sheep warning. It's loose. The complete contains salt, the plain Tech Master which if you have to ship it is cheaper because you can purchase plain stock salt locally cheaper and add it to it yourself. I love this minerals because I only offer it, it contains the kelp and yeasts we used to add to our old minerals.

But yes for years we did rely heavily on our milkstand grain with it's wonderful minerals, now with the price and us feeding whole oats with no minerals, we have also started bolusing our goats for copper.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #33 06/09/07, 11:53 PM

Kathryn, can you get good fat oats? Add them to your barley, you aren't supposed to feed only barley to rumanints, I know Tracy on our list is the real guru of websites about whole and crimped raw grains. I don't feed the alfalfa pellets on the milkstand because they simply can't eat enough of it quick enough while being milked. So the alfalfa pellets are fed in the bunker feeders in the barns, oats on the milkstand.

Moon spinner, the best grain mix is one being used by others so there is turnover and you aren't feeding old feed. It should be a menued feed tag it should state...corn oats barley soy etc...not grain by products, plain protein by products....all brands have their own dry mixes...Pilgrims is a southern mill....but Bluebonnet is not and it is carried by Tractor Supplies all over, they have premium products. Vicki

bluefish · #34 06/10/07, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

Kathryn, can you get good fat oats? Add them to your barley, you aren't supposed to feed only barley to rumanints, I know Tracy on our list is the real guru of websites about whole and crimped raw grains. I don't feed the alfalfa pellets on the milkstand because they simply can't eat enough of it quick enough while being milked. So the alfalfa pellets are fed in the bunker feeders in the barns, oats on the milkstand.
Vicki

I can get steam crimped oats. Will those work? I might be able to find whole oats straight off the field come harvest time, I don't know. How's wheat for goats? I mix my own chicken feed from crimped oats, barley, wheat and a little bit of corn. Sometimes BOSS, depending on price. Could she eat that? I can't feed pellets in the feeder because she's housed with my pack wethers. One, I try and avoid much of that for them and two, since she doesn't really like them, the boys get them all and she's left with nothing. That's why I've been trying to feed on the milk stand. I put her up there first thing so she can eat while I take care of the rabbits, chickens and other goats. Gives her a little more time. Thanks so much for the help!

Junkmanme · #35 06/10/07, 12:23 PM

Molasses is GOOD for includin' in the makin's of white likker!

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #36 06/10/07, 12:25 PM

Yes that is fine, your dry mix for your other stock, dry grain mixes like that are soo much better because they don't change, mix them the same way each time, goats do not do well with adjustments to the ration every month or so that feed mills do. Make your change to it slowly, and heavy on the oats and barley, less on the wheat and others things.

A good milker here needs to eat either alfalfa hay or about 3 pounds of alfalfa pellets each day to stay in good calcium levels. There is no calcium in your grain mix...so like me your calcium and protein has to come from your hay or alfalfa pellets, so you have to figure out a way to give her a chance to eat them. She may not like them now, or won't eat grain for awhile without mollasas on the feed, but she is better for the change of feed. It's like taking sugar frosted flakes away from your children, of course they prefer them over Allbran

Vicki

Patty0315 · #37 06/10/07, 12:35 PM

TSC in NY does not carry Blue Bonnet or pilgrim .... both names sound like northern names to why heck were did the pilgrims land ???????

I had them check the computers and it is not even listed , so no go for me.

Patty

PygmyLover · #38 06/10/07, 07:07 PM

I don't post much mainly because my way of doing things doesn't match up to the way a lot of people look at goat raising here.

But I have feed a sweet goat feed for years (same feed for 11 years) and I have never delt with Polio (thamine deficency) or any problems with my goats because of it.

The feed I use is Southern States Sweet goat feed. This feed is made with quality ingredients so I agree that it is the quality of feed not the mollasses that is the problem.

I also give mollasses water to pregnant does and to does who have recently kidded. They love it and it is an energy boost for them and provides other nutrients they need.

If your goats are fine on the sweet feed and the breeder also uses it WHY CHANGE? there is no reason to be causing a ruckus in your barn because some people dislike mollasses. Yes molasses in large amounts is not good (depleats the B viamine) but there isn't enough in your average sweet feeds to create a cause for concern.

A lady I know actually uses horse sweet feed for all her herd (this is over 100+ goats) and has done this for years. Her herd is healthy and thriving.

I know by personal experience it isn't as bad as people claim. Do research into what the mill uses for ingredients in the feed and see the molasses as a secondary concern.

As to the alfafa - I had milkers for years and alfafa is way to expensive here. They produced fine for me without it. They had plenty of browse which made up for it I assume.

What works for one may not work for another so work with your situation and find a good solution for you and don't think less of yourself because it isn't what another person does. Nobody has all the answers I know that I am still learning.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #39 06/11/07, 02:25 AM

There is a huge difference in the needs of pygmy's and the needs of dairy goats in production. Your does nurse kids for 2 or 3 months, our does milk for 10 months, some on this board don't dry their does up for 2 or 3 years. Pygmy's are a meat breed, they certainly don't have calcium demands on them to fill those tiny udders of high fat milk.

Most who feed sweet feed have no idea the percentage of molassas in their mix, you have to call the mill, in some cases like with Purina unless you send a feed sample into a lab, Purina won't tell you, it's a trade secret. Southern States has all natural feed, and yes fish and feather meal is completely natural, and the feeding of ruminants to ruminants is against federal law and is why it is on the label not because they choose to do it. Our coop also feeds bakery products like theres....bakery products are made with lard and white flour, things I do not want my milkrs eating producing milk for my family and customers.

Information changes on animal health, I didn't stop learning and keep feeding my goats the way I did back in the 80's. Perhaps the milkers you had way back when didn't milk as much as the does do now? Because I know when we were milking on sweet feed and grass hay using calcium carbonate and sorbate in the minerals for our calcium we were plagued with milkfever and hypocalcemia.

I am gald for the new information, it is cheaper to feed grain, they eat less of it than sacked byproducts. You get more milk on alfalfa so you can have less goats for the same amount of milk, and biggy, no metobolic deaths or problems in your best milkers.

It's a phenomenon seen at all dairies, the rolling herd average for milk goes down as the best milkers die off...the herd can remain quite healthy and beautiful on the inferior feeds because it's only inferior to the best milker...milk poorly and sweet feeds and grass hay can sustain you...course they then go out of business because it takes so much labor to milk out that 4 pounds a day out of each goat. Vicki

steff bugielski · #40 06/11/07, 05:39 AM

Vicki,
Are you feeding just oats and alfalfa pelletts or adding corn and barley? In that mix the protein is all in the alfalfa right? Many of mine do not like the alfalfa. So where would I suppliment the protien from, linseed meal, soybean meal( thought that was not good for them)?
Right now I feed horse feed from Blue seal, Charger. It is only 14%, I thought with the added alfalfa I would bump that up to at least 16% but not if they don't eat the alfalfa.
With the straight grain mix the loose minerals are important, is there a commercial one avail on the web. None at the feed stores here.
I swithched this year to the horse feed after reading your posts about the byproducts, I like it they have produced better but, the cost is killing me. Yep $10.35 for 50lbs.