Using Copper Sulfate instead of Boluses?

This whole argument about whether CS is bad for goats or not is very interesting, since every mineral tag I have seen so far lists copper sulfate as the source of the copper in the minerals, including the Sweetlix mentioned above. That goes for cow minerals and red salt blocks, etc.

Copper sulfate is the most common source for mineral copper there is. You can even use it with water, a couple electrodes and a car battery to copper plate stuff if you want.

You can get it in 5-gallon pails as a sewer pipe root preventer, or in quarts as RootTone. Or as pool supplies, as has been mentioned. Lowe's, Home Depot, and Ace Hardware are among the stores where you can buy it.

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Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

Yes it is in every mineral around, in very specific doses. Like I said before do you want the water to be light blue, medium blue or dark blue...when is enough too much? When does the ammonia it causes in the rumen start hurting the doe? I bolus because I know that it specifically at this amount given to this size doe, at this time, keeps the blood level up along with the mineral I use, because copper liver biopsy on old deceased does, or a goat I choose to put down, was ran and showed it was working. My goats look great too...problem is my goats can look great and have huge worm burdens, I am not real keen on believing my eyes all the time, especially when it hurts production eventually. Vicki

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Vicki McGaugh
Nubian Soaps
North of Houston TX
www.etsy.com/shop/nubiansoaps

A 3 decade dairy goat farm homestead that is now a retail/wholesale soap company and construction business.

I'm sure the boluses work well, Vicki. I know you must do fecals as well? The fecals are how I monitor my goats as far as worms and cocci. Of course, I am not monitoring production at this point, as I am only now beginning to milk the few does that have kidded. I get varying amounts from each one, my Nubian has outstanding production, but she is a pain to milk! My other two are still producing colostrum. I deliberately bred them to fgive birth very staggered so I would have time to learn how to do the kidding and milking and all that goes along with it.

I got a quart and half of colostrum from the Nubian while she was nursing triplets, Day One!

I think I just drifted off-topic here, sorry!

BTW, why would the "ammonia it causes in the rumen" be produced by copper sulfate and not copper oxide? Anyone know? As I mentioned before, I don't put the copper sulfate in the water, I dose either individually or by mixing the correct amount per goat into the mineral mix I feed through daily on their grain ration. I have few enough goats that I can observe that everyone is getting their portion. I understand that mixing it with water would produce very inaccurate dosing, also would make the water taste very nasty, I am sure!

Last night I bolused with the copasure...using the small pet pill bolus, I just loaded three capsules in a row down the chute and let 'er rip! Worked the first time on three out of four of my big does. Lotte sounded like she maybe chewed on one, but she was the one I was least worried about. I'll be monitoring over the next few weeks. How long should it be afore I notice improvements?

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Joan Crandell
Wild Iris Farm
"Fair"- the other 4 letter F word." This epiphany came after almost 10 days straight at our county fair.

We started noticing difference in coat texture and color in about 3 weeks.

Most studies I have seen say that goats need 8-10 ppm copper intake as part of the diet daily (except Saanendoah/University of California, which says 10-20 ppm). The Salt Institute says goats "normally have 0.8 to 1.2 ppm copper in the serum." However, the research also says a requirement has not been established, but that goats can tolerate copper levels way higher than that.

The Sweetlix I use runs between 1,750 ppm-1,810 ppm...same as the Sweetlix Caprine Magnum-Milk. That's a lot more than enough. When I pour the stuff out, I taste copper on my tongue just by breathing. I check that it is being consumed (easy with PVC feeders). With the molasses Sweetlix mixes in, the goats lap it up pretty good.

I just can't get that breathless about the copper deal. I guess it could be necessary to manipulate mineral supplements as the diet becomes more and more unnatural (heavier on the grains). I wouldn't know about unnatural diets; I don't farm like that.

The most positive research that I have read about copper boluses says that their use helps to control worms. That would be a benefit of a high copper dose, delivered by bolus at an unnaturally higher rate than the goat would normally consume by free choice.

Or worm and egg reduction could be done in a number of other ways, like rotational grazing.

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Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

jim the water quality a lot of goat owners have to deal with can be the source of deficiency even though copper it is sufficiently supplemented in the mineral.
another reason might be that copper sulfate is not absorbed very well but copper oxides are?

i do have lots of iron in the water. even though i use a filter i still see deficiency.
i guess you can be a happy guy that you can raise your goats with no problems.
how old are your animals getting on average?

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Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

susanne, the oldest is a pet wether who is 14 now, the youngest is 1 1/2 months. Most of the herd is in the 4-5 range on average. No adult does are younger than 3, the buck is 2. I don't keep goats past around 9-10 as a general rule. It's proven to be uneconomical for me to do so. We have some older does getting ready to go. We keep Simon the pet wether because he is the son of one of the original goats. He'll die here.

Our water is very soft. My mom used to comment on it when they would visit from Illinois. You just touch a soap bar to your wet hands, and you have a ton of suds.

I haven't seen anything that says sulfate doesn't absorb in goats as well as oxides. Could be. Dale Bumpers Small Farmers Research Center studies in sheep, which are more prone to toxicity, indicate that copper sulfate is more readily absorbed than copper oxide, so sulfate can lead faster to toxicity in sheep.

Are you saying that the iron in the water could be blocking uptake of the copper sulfate? I know sulphur water does that, but I didn't know iron water would. Most mineral supplements have iron in them, as well.

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Jim Steele
Sweetpea Farms
"To avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing." -- Robert Gates

yes jim, too much iron, zinc, molybdenum and sulfur can interfere with the absorption of copper.
also heavy parasite load can interfere with the copper absorption.

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Susanne Stuetzler
Ain-ash-shams
Nubian Dairy Goats

please visit us at
http://www.ain-ash-shams.net

I use the copper sulfate via Pat Coleby and it is working great for me...

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LinderCroft

We just started using Mineral Max EAD Paste.

Formulated To Contain:

Vitamin A, Not less than 4,400,000 IU/kg

Vitamin D, Not less than 220,000 IU/kg

Vitamin E, Not less than 33,000 IU/kg

Magnesium, Not less than 0.95%

Potassium, Not less than 0.95%

Zinc, Not less than 6,100 ppm

Manganese, Not less than 2,500 ppm

Copper, Not less than 6,100 ppm

Cobalt, Not less than 400 ppm

Selenium, Not less than 60 ppm


I just put the dose on a small piece of whole wheat bread and give it to each goat. For those that don't want the bread its not that hard to use a syringe and squirt it in their mouths.

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Wags Ranch Nigerians


"The Constitution says to promote the general welfare, not to provide welfare!" ~ Lt. Col Allen West

I know this is an old thread but I'm glad it popped up.

I copper bolused with Copasure almost a month ago, and am noticing HUGE differences in the goat's coats.

I have very sleek coated Nubians, and they are rapidly now becoming darker and sleeker than they were when they were bought in April. One doe was almost white on her sides, I thought it was her normal coloration -- WRONG! She is not a honey color, she is sable. And in three weeks, went from 3/4 gallon a day to one and a half. She also had chronic, recurring staph dermatitis on her udder. I bought bottle after bottle of chlorhexadine and it only kept it from spreading. That has been gone from about two weeks after the bolus.

I live in western WA and we are very copper poor with hard water. I am a firm believer . . . just wish I'd taken before and after pics.

This is after I am pretty sure about half the boluses were chewed, too. I plan to rebolus at four months with a dog piller to get past those shark teeth . . .

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It may be that our sole purpose in life is simply to be kind to others.

Great thread.

Wags, where did you get the Mineral Max EAD Paste?

Paul

Old thread.......would just like to specify something I said in my first post.
I *do* use a bit of copper sulfate to keep the algae down in my water tubs. I have no running water, so its not as easy for me to dump and scrub my tubs often as it is for most folks.
I do *not* use it as a copper supplement for the goats. The amount they get in their water is *minute* to say the least.

We have high iron water which binds copper absorbtion and I have noticed way more copper issues since we moved to this area(the only thing that has changed is their water source and of course their browse/pastures are grown in this soil now).

I have bolused my herd with copasure cattle boluses for several years now, and the change in coat, health, etc was dramatic.
I do not use the rubber thingy and water to bolus, just a regular ol' cheapy plastic bolus gun. Its very easy once you get the hang of it.

Copper issues on my place have nothing to do with "unnatural" farming practices(feeding lots of grain, etc). My does browse, graze and eat hay. They get a small amount of grain as milking does and kids.

As our soils are more and more depleted from over-use and simply not putting back what the farmer is taking out(hayfields(most of us buy hay rather than grow it), grain fields and so on), the products raised there will have less mineral and nutritional value. We have to contend with this in our own pasture/browse as well. Combine that with the fact that some areas were already deficient, and that some water/soil contains high iron and/or sulfur, and some of us *will* be better off copper bolusing.

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Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence

Some farm & ranch stores carry it and you can also get it on-line at a variety of places including American Livestock.

Same company also makes Mineral Max Ultra Which has all of the same minerals plus the same amount of probiotic levels per dose as BP-1.



We have only been using the Mineral Max EAD Paste for a few weeks, so they have only had two doses at this point. I will start giving it on a monthly basis from here on out unless I see signs that they might need more. I was already giving my herd selenium paste, but this takes care of that too. It's not cheap, and the Ultra is even more expensive, so I don't think I'll try that just yet. I had been giving them loose minerals with copper in it - but they were pretty much refusing to touch it. This way I know how much they are getting.

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Wags Ranch Nigerians


"The Constitution says to promote the general welfare, not to provide welfare!" ~ Lt. Col Allen West

And yes, if for no other reason, I would keep copper sulfate on hand for the very rare occaision that a doe gets foot rot in the winter wet months. Clears it up faster than any of the other, more expensive treatments I have tried in the past. Not orally, but in a paste between the toes.

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Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence

Just a general question about copper. I live in Oregon and a while back I was talking with a neighbor who grows grass hay. He said that the hay grown here, pastures as well, were low in copper, but high in Iron and Sulfur. Now, if I rember right, that Iron and Sulfur interfer with the intake of copper (college, 30 years ago). So do you have to take this into account when supplementing copper for goats? Is there a rule of thumb on how much to supplement? Very interensting and confusing.

And I have a question - what happens to the bolus after the copper in them is gone? Do they just stay in the stomach or what?

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LinderCroft

Actually, the bolus dissolves, then the copper is slowly absorbed and assimilated by the goats body.
The bolus is just like the capsules that medicines/herbs are encapsulated in for people. They dissolve in the stomach.

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Emily Dixon
Ozark Jewels
Nubians & Lamanchas
www.ozarkjewels.net

"Remember, no man is a failure, who has friends" -Clarence

I have to say, I knew almost nothing about copper sulfate/copper boluses before this thread. All the debate (and nice debate, on both sides) really helped me out, because I got both opinions strongly in one place, plus articles to back it up.

Thanks guys, everything is constructive!

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